frenchie
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PPRM said:
500 lbs for a yearling?now thats sad.
Ranching for profit
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500 lbs for a yearling?now thats sad.
Haytrucker
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Very interesting thread; and thought provoking.
I think my theory of fitting the cow to the country might still apply, whether she grazes all winter, or eats long-stem meadow hay for a living 5 months a year.
A few years back I had occasion to drive our hopper right by Kit Pharo's front gate, and I'll say anybody that can ranch, let alone profitably, in that much cactus and sagebrush, probably has a right to speak up. Forty miles later the country changed, and probably so should of the cow eating it.
Come to think of it , about every forty miles all the way there, and beyond, could have used a different cow.
I think my theory of fitting the cow to the country might still apply, whether she grazes all winter, or eats long-stem meadow hay for a living 5 months a year.
A few years back I had occasion to drive our hopper right by Kit Pharo's front gate, and I'll say anybody that can ranch, let alone profitably, in that much cactus and sagebrush, probably has a right to speak up. Forty miles later the country changed, and probably so should of the cow eating it.
Come to think of it , about every forty miles all the way there, and beyond, could have used a different cow.
My Grandpa tole me a long time ago "If it was easy every one would do it and then no one could make a proffit at it" :!:
While I'm sure he was not talking about raising cattle :? it still applies. I try to look at what every one is doing
and I then try to copy the good parts and avoid the bad ( sometimes it is hard to figure which are which) :roll:
While I'm sure he was not talking about raising cattle :? it still applies. I try to look at what every one is doing
and I then try to copy the good parts and avoid the bad ( sometimes it is hard to figure which are which) :roll:RobertMac
Well-known member
Haytrucker said:
Haytrucker, you're on the right track...the highest nutritional needs for a cow is post calving. Match that peak with your ranches peak "free feed"(peak pasture growth). This is what Dr. Dick Diven told me.
Too many ranchers would rather coffee shop brag on their weaning weights than admit how much they spend to get those winter calving cows bred back. Net return is what makes a profit. The RMC school is a "business of ranching" school. They aren't going to tell you how to raise your cattle, but teach you how to do enterprise analysis to determine return/lose on what you do. I heard David Pratt at GrazeFest and was very impressed. If ranching is your only source of income and you don't have a good business back ground, the school could be very helpful.
Maple Leaf Angus
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
"could get". . .
RM, he probably wouldn't even have to put any effort into it. It would just curl on its own. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Soapweed
Well-known member
Here are some thoughts I wrote back on January 25, 2004. My thoughts haven't changed a whole lot since then.
Recently my wife and I had opportunity to attend a talk given by Kit Pharo. He suggests that "low input" ranching has more potential to be profitable than does ranching with higher costs of production. The talk was interesting and informative, and the concept works for him. However, after much head scratching and pondering, I am not quite willing to give up many of the standard traditions which we presently employee in our ranching.
Kit infers that he can raise a calf for $270 per year, and any money over and above that figure is profit. That may work in his Colorado country, but it doesn't here in the Nebraska Sandhills. For starters, the going rate for summer pasture in this area is $30 per pair (cow and calf) per month. Whether a rancher is putting out cattle by the month or taking them in, this is an "opportunity cost" that must be considered. As summer should be the cheapest time to run cattle, the other months are understandingly more expensive. By using the $30 per month figure and multiplying this by twelve months in a year, it looks like the very minimum cost per cow per year would be $360. This doesn't include any other expenses such as taxes, fencing and windmill upkeep, pickup repair, machinery costs, salt and mineral, etc.
The Pharo philosophy maintains that a 50,000 pound pot-load of 400 pound calves is worth more dollars than a 50,000 pound pot-load of 600 pound calves. This could be debateable. A small-framed calf weighing 400 pounds might be at the same stage of his life as is a moderate-framed calf at 600 pounds. There might me less growth potential on the small-framed calf than there is on the bigger-framed 600 pounder, and consequently not as efficient and as good an investment as the bigger calf.
As a rancher that puts out cattle by the month, I get more bang for the buck having a larger cow nursing a larger earlier calf. Pasture rates seem to be the same regardless of cattle size. It seems to me that a calf born on March 1st will weigh substantially more by October 15th than will a calf born on April 1st weighed on November 15th. This is considering that both examples are still sucking their mothers by the fall weaning dates. A May 1st calf weighed on December 15th would not even be in the ball-park. I think it has to do with the earlier calf being more adapted to grazing the summer grasses, and the fact that the pastures dry up and are of poorer quality in the fall.
In these days of fairly cheap interest on money borrowed from financial lending institutions, fast turn-over is not as important as at other times. In times of high interest, the quicker a person can retrieve a pay-check from their investment the better. In other words, a big calf for sale at weaning time can sell well and bring in optimum money. A May or June calf would have to be held over until the following year before there is enough weight to sell for many dollars. Consequently more interest owed is a negative on the bank statement.
My philosophy is to always keep my cattle "saleable." In the low-input system, there is much of the year when the cows are just barely getting by and are too thin to be of much value to a potential buyer. In the event of a bad winter, this thin condition could be life-threatening. I figure that if at any time my cows are worth top dollar to a potential buyer, they are also worth that to me.
Kit says that if a person makes ranching easier, there is more time to spend at the coffee shops (or maybe piddling with the "bull session" on the internet, lol!). Soon the coffee shops and the bull session will not be exciting enough, and the bored person will be finding thrills at a local casino. Next thing you know, the ranch will be gambled away, and it won't matter what size of a calf you raise. Maybe it is more desirable to stay busy in the first place, spend time in the calving barn, and try to raise the biggest meatiest highest quality calf you can, then sell it for the most money available. These are just some thoughts in trying to justify all the "mistakes" I've been making all my life. Cheers.
Recently my wife and I had opportunity to attend a talk given by Kit Pharo. He suggests that "low input" ranching has more potential to be profitable than does ranching with higher costs of production. The talk was interesting and informative, and the concept works for him. However, after much head scratching and pondering, I am not quite willing to give up many of the standard traditions which we presently employee in our ranching.
Kit infers that he can raise a calf for $270 per year, and any money over and above that figure is profit. That may work in his Colorado country, but it doesn't here in the Nebraska Sandhills. For starters, the going rate for summer pasture in this area is $30 per pair (cow and calf) per month. Whether a rancher is putting out cattle by the month or taking them in, this is an "opportunity cost" that must be considered. As summer should be the cheapest time to run cattle, the other months are understandingly more expensive. By using the $30 per month figure and multiplying this by twelve months in a year, it looks like the very minimum cost per cow per year would be $360. This doesn't include any other expenses such as taxes, fencing and windmill upkeep, pickup repair, machinery costs, salt and mineral, etc.
The Pharo philosophy maintains that a 50,000 pound pot-load of 400 pound calves is worth more dollars than a 50,000 pound pot-load of 600 pound calves. This could be debateable. A small-framed calf weighing 400 pounds might be at the same stage of his life as is a moderate-framed calf at 600 pounds. There might me less growth potential on the small-framed calf than there is on the bigger-framed 600 pounder, and consequently not as efficient and as good an investment as the bigger calf.
As a rancher that puts out cattle by the month, I get more bang for the buck having a larger cow nursing a larger earlier calf. Pasture rates seem to be the same regardless of cattle size. It seems to me that a calf born on March 1st will weigh substantially more by October 15th than will a calf born on April 1st weighed on November 15th. This is considering that both examples are still sucking their mothers by the fall weaning dates. A May 1st calf weighed on December 15th would not even be in the ball-park. I think it has to do with the earlier calf being more adapted to grazing the summer grasses, and the fact that the pastures dry up and are of poorer quality in the fall.
In these days of fairly cheap interest on money borrowed from financial lending institutions, fast turn-over is not as important as at other times. In times of high interest, the quicker a person can retrieve a pay-check from their investment the better. In other words, a big calf for sale at weaning time can sell well and bring in optimum money. A May or June calf would have to be held over until the following year before there is enough weight to sell for many dollars. Consequently more interest owed is a negative on the bank statement.
My philosophy is to always keep my cattle "saleable." In the low-input system, there is much of the year when the cows are just barely getting by and are too thin to be of much value to a potential buyer. In the event of a bad winter, this thin condition could be life-threatening. I figure that if at any time my cows are worth top dollar to a potential buyer, they are also worth that to me.
Kit says that if a person makes ranching easier, there is more time to spend at the coffee shops (or maybe piddling with the "bull session" on the internet, lol!). Soon the coffee shops and the bull session will not be exciting enough, and the bored person will be finding thrills at a local casino. Next thing you know, the ranch will be gambled away, and it won't matter what size of a calf you raise. Maybe it is more desirable to stay busy in the first place, spend time in the calving barn, and try to raise the biggest meatiest highest quality calf you can, then sell it for the most money available. These are just some thoughts in trying to justify all the "mistakes" I've been making all my life. Cheers.
Soapweed
Well-known member
Haytrucker said:
You are right about each ranch being different enough that different rules apply. My dad's ranch (which I've leased since January of 1994) is just across the fence from ours, but his meadows have higher quality hay and the summer pastures are better grassed and in less "choppy" country. On the place where my wife and I live, the meadows have a lot of swampier type grass, and the summer range is choppy soapweedy hard-to-get-around in hills.
As far as winter grazing cows, by the middle of January the grass has lost its power and the cows just are no longer happy grazing. Our swampy type hay needs to be fed while the weather is cold, or the cows won't eat it. The low ground can't be grazed any time of the year, because it is too soft, and there are a few spots that will bog a cow. It has to be hayed about now, or it is too wet to get tractors into.
Many of the younger ranchers these days are lulled into a sense that winters don't get too bad. There have been some long cold winters in my younger days when anyone caught without much hay was in trouble.
To each their own. As long as it works, go for it. It is fun and interesting to get all of these various perspectives on ranching. There's a lot of different ways to skin a cat, or feed a cow.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
eah spend lots of time in the casino....not. I fail to see the reasoning thar a 500 lb march calf is genetically superior to a 400 lb may calf-but hey if it helps you through those cold wet nights in the calving barn more power to you I did the big calf thing too for a dozen or so years-was very good at it-featured in four colour breed ads-won steer feedouts-big man on campus when we talked weaning weights-was I more profitable than I am now not in the slightest. Guess I'll just go on being a low input summer calving wastrel-I'd rather coach hockey in the snow than calve cows lol.
Soapweed
Well-known member
Don't know anything about hockey, but if it doesn't trip my trigger any
more than football or basketball does, I probably wouldn't like it. :wink: :? :???:
more than football or basketball does, I probably wouldn't like it. :wink: :? :???:
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Not the point whether you like it or not_I made some management decisions that allow me to spend ALOT more time with my family doing things we all like. When BSE hit I got stuck with 190 heifers to calve in March-after that ordeal of mud,blood and snow-my two oldestr kids said-"Dad I can't believe anybody would do this on purpose". I was just thinking about pasture renting by so much a cow/calf pair-why not negotiate your grass rental at so much per pound of stocking rate. If you put 100,000 pounds for example of small cows or 100,000 pounds of larger cows the rent is the same. It's funny up here with the BSE deal alot of older cows weren't culled(were pretty much worthless). This led to some winter calvers actually calving a few cows on grass-gotten a few "You sure weren't kidding it's less work." comments. No better feeling than watching a spring storm blow in and knowing my calves are safe in their momma's bellies.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
We do a bit of everything but sell calves at weaning-we'll put some heavier calves on feed a couple months after weaning-some in spring after winter-some off of grass. Our finished cattle average right around 1300 lbs. This whole BSE deal has gotten me overstocked to some extent here-so stored some cattle in the yard this summer. Not going to get in a math contest with anybody-I know what changing my operation 180 degrees did for my family-to each his own I guess. It's like my one old neighbor told me -"I added up all the extra pounds I was going to get from crossbreeding,implanting,worming,creep feeding etc-it turns out I should be weaning 1100 pound calves" lol.
Faster horses
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Pat Parelli says, "Normal changes every 50 miles." :?
baling wire
Well-known member
Everyone has a different situation to work with. Since we own only enough grass to run our own yearling heifers the pairs are all put out to grass by the month.We calve the end of February so it is done by the time we start farming.It costs more to feed the cowspost calving but we still pay the same per month weather there one month old or three. The bottom line is when the bills are all payed at the end of the year and whats left over that counts.
shorthorn
Well-known member
NR i know where you are coming from its nice to be stokin the fire and not worry about the calves. I am not a kit pharo deciple BUT he has some good points that i tried. He says calve with nature well i got to thinkin about it and watchin my deer and thought what the heck. So i did WOW the cows had time to regain weight (that they lost during the winter eating hay) and the pastures were lush when the calves hit the ground so in sep my calves weighed dang near the same as if i had calved in feb. I couldnt believe it so than i decided to stockpile grass. Whoops that worked to good i now make a little hay for emergency or deep snow or ice and thats it. My cows gain or sustain weight all winter now. They get hay if it gets icy or the snow gets to deep. I will also throw them a crystal lyk if it gets to cold. That is not abusing my cows they love me as much as i love them. I am just making them earn their keep. Ranching is a business and we have to make money or quit. Our biggest expense is our feed so if we can cut it back than why not? We use electric fence here in indiana to stockpile our grasses with. So out there it would be a heckuva lot harder to do. I understand some places the grass is just not good for stockpiling but than i have seen it done in montana and numerous other states and the cows look a lot better than cows on dryed up hay. I don't know the answer's but NR your right on my cows and my accountant love me!
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Here's a picture of my calving facility-our total drug bill this year was ZERO-like every other year pretty much lol.
shorthorn
Well-known member
Yep people have just gotta try it to understand it. While they are mowing and baling hay i am rotating pastures and walking with my cows. What is sours anyway havent had none since i started calving in the spring.
Jinglebob
Well-known member
I had an ex-banker, now a good rancher, tell me this tale a few years ago.
He knew a fella in Wyoming who's places were quite a ways apart. He always had to hire someone to calve out at the other place. One year, he just flat couldn't get anybody hired and the cows had to pretty much calve themselves out. I said cows, not heifers, remember.
That spring at branding time, he figured his live calf percentage, compared to when he had someone calvin g for him. It was 2 % different. He figured the cost of the lost 2 % of calves and it didn't come close to covering the cost of the hired man. His cows now calve by themselves.
Another fella got tired of his strung out calving season so turned his bulls in a week later and then pulled them out 30 or 35 days later and sold them. Then he worried and worried. That fall he sold almost a third of his herd as open cows. Then he was really worried!
The next spring his cows calved out quickly and when he sold calves off from them, he had almost as many pounds as he'd had with a third more cows and because the calves were even and close in size, he got within' a few dollars as he had the fall before, with no rise in the calf market. And he had a smaller winter and grass bill, on the cows.
We had gotten to where we started calving at the first of March. We had quite a bit of bad weather one spring with lots of blizzards and calving was a bitch. I was grumbling to my dad about it and he told me if I would go back to the end of March calving, I wouldn't be having so many problems. I built a bull pasture to keep the bulls out for an April first calving date, the next spring. I worried and worried. That fall we had a low amount of open cows and they wintered well. The next spring our calves came close together and we missed most of the cold weather. No frozen ears! The calves were more even that fall and I sold the heaviest bunch of calves we ever had sold to that date.
I am starting to believe in the last of April to first of May calving, but I have fences to where I can keep the neighbor and my bulls out until later too. Most people around here about have to turn bulls in when they do as the neighbors bulls will get in anyway. Pretty hard to keep a bull away from a hot cow with a 3 or 4 wire fence! :lol:
I sure would hesitate to try and tell anyone else what they are doing wrong, but I sure don't want anyone preaching to me either! :lol:
And I am always open to suggestions, from someone who has more knowledge than me. And there sure must be a bunch who fit that description! :wink: :lol:
One thing I think I have learned; it's not the weight of the calves or the dollars they bring, but how much you make on them, that really counts! Or in businessman words, it ain't the gross, it's the net that makes the difference! :shock:
End of preaching! :wink:
He knew a fella in Wyoming who's places were quite a ways apart. He always had to hire someone to calve out at the other place. One year, he just flat couldn't get anybody hired and the cows had to pretty much calve themselves out. I said cows, not heifers, remember.
That spring at branding time, he figured his live calf percentage, compared to when he had someone calvin g for him. It was 2 % different. He figured the cost of the lost 2 % of calves and it didn't come close to covering the cost of the hired man. His cows now calve by themselves.
Another fella got tired of his strung out calving season so turned his bulls in a week later and then pulled them out 30 or 35 days later and sold them. Then he worried and worried. That fall he sold almost a third of his herd as open cows. Then he was really worried!
The next spring his cows calved out quickly and when he sold calves off from them, he had almost as many pounds as he'd had with a third more cows and because the calves were even and close in size, he got within' a few dollars as he had the fall before, with no rise in the calf market. And he had a smaller winter and grass bill, on the cows.
We had gotten to where we started calving at the first of March. We had quite a bit of bad weather one spring with lots of blizzards and calving was a bitch. I was grumbling to my dad about it and he told me if I would go back to the end of March calving, I wouldn't be having so many problems. I built a bull pasture to keep the bulls out for an April first calving date, the next spring. I worried and worried. That fall we had a low amount of open cows and they wintered well. The next spring our calves came close together and we missed most of the cold weather. No frozen ears! The calves were more even that fall and I sold the heaviest bunch of calves we ever had sold to that date.
I am starting to believe in the last of April to first of May calving, but I have fences to where I can keep the neighbor and my bulls out until later too. Most people around here about have to turn bulls in when they do as the neighbors bulls will get in anyway. Pretty hard to keep a bull away from a hot cow with a 3 or 4 wire fence! :lol:
I sure would hesitate to try and tell anyone else what they are doing wrong, but I sure don't want anyone preaching to me either! :lol:
And I am always open to suggestions, from someone who has more knowledge than me. And there sure must be a bunch who fit that description! :wink: :lol:
One thing I think I have learned; it's not the weight of the calves or the dollars they bring, but how much you make on them, that really counts! Or in businessman words, it ain't the gross, it's the net that makes the difference! :shock:
End of preaching! :wink:
This thread is getting really good and very thought provoking......
I am in Soapweeds camp,I like a lot of what he said. One thing I'll add is feed costs vary widely from one area to another. The Columbia Basin has given me a tremendous amount of different ways to winter cows and it is an area where I feel fall calving has worked for me because of different opportunities.
I will say a key is to know what a cows or calfs needs are and spend the money when needed.
On the 500 pound calf deal, any weight calf that has got there by an honest living will do better than ones that struggled because someone tried to take feed shortcuts,
I know a guy that sold half his herd when prices got good and has no debt, more grass, feed, better weight averages and less help. Did the banker tell you any of those stories, LOL, probably not out of self interest, lol.
The guy who started having cows calve themselves out, probably strted culling problems he used to live with,
PPRM
I am in Soapweeds camp,I like a lot of what he said. One thing I'll add is feed costs vary widely from one area to another. The Columbia Basin has given me a tremendous amount of different ways to winter cows and it is an area where I feel fall calving has worked for me because of different opportunities.
I will say a key is to know what a cows or calfs needs are and spend the money when needed.
On the 500 pound calf deal, any weight calf that has got there by an honest living will do better than ones that struggled because someone tried to take feed shortcuts,
I know a guy that sold half his herd when prices got good and has no debt, more grass, feed, better weight averages and less help. Did the banker tell you any of those stories, LOL, probably not out of self interest, lol.
The guy who started having cows calve themselves out, probably strted culling problems he used to live with,
PPRM
Jinglebob
Well-known member
Did the banker tell you any of those stories, LOL, probably not out of self interest, lol.
He wasn't a banker anymore when he told me the story.
The guy who started having cows calve themselves out, probably strted culling problems he used to live with,
I don't think I understand this statement?
He wasn't a banker anymore when he told me the story.
The guy who started having cows calve themselves out, probably strted culling problems he used to live with,
I don't think I understand this statement?
