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Range cubes

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rightwinger82

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I have not caked for a number of years, last cubes I
used were from Loup Valley Alfalfa in Burwell. Of course there are a multitude of options out there, but nothing I know of like them old alfalfa cubes. The trendy thing on the market seems to be an extruded distillers cube. 28% protien 8% fat 10% fiber and 0.7% phos. Thats all, no vitamin package, nothing else. I am happy with my current chelated mineral program, and i have concerns about using a suppliment that is high phos without trying to balance the phos. I like the energy content, and believe that will help accomplish what i disire from supplementation. Should i be concerned about the phos levels at a rate of 2 to 3 pounds of cake every other day? This would be feed along with grass hay 60 days prior to calving till pasture. Thoughts? Thanks.
 
Here are my thoughts. 3# 28% cake every other day would be only .378# protein (I took out 10% for moisture to figure it on a dry matter basis--I can't remember for sure how much moisture is in cake, but there is some. Even with no moisture taken out you are only adding .42# protein per head per day). Don't know what it is costing you, but that isn't adding much protein. What is the protein content of your hay and how much of it are you feeding? Maybe you don't need any cake. If you don't have a forage analysis of your hay, that might be the best $15-$20 you could spend--getting a forage analysis. FWIW and hope this helps.

I doubt if that much cake would make any difference in your mineral intake. Good luck to you!
 
100% agree with the feed test recommendation. Best money you can spend.
 
I do have an analysis on my hay. It is 6.87% protien on dry matter basis. I would figure to feed 28-30 pounds a head a day. I guess what i am trying to do with supplimentation is mantain condition, maximize milk production, and try to get more bred first cycle. Seems to me the trouble is no matter how nice your hay is, during the spring, with things turning green, consumption and waste. I thought the supplimental energy may help keep consumption up, and i have read good things about better breeding rates with energy supplimentation.
 
that analysis looks like Bahia grass, and what we deal with here. Ive never even heard of cubes until I joined forums some years ago as we always ground our own feed growing up. Since I have a few of my own I've explored whats available in my area and we do have a mill that makes cubes but I can not pencil out the cost for them. I found a good quality byproduct pellet that I have used in the winter the last 4 years and it supplements poor hay really well.
 
Good that you have an analysis on your hay. Now you know what you need to supplement. What are those cubes costing you?
We have learned that alfalfa hay as a SUPPLEMENT is much cheaper than buying cake, lick tubs, etc. If you could feed 5# alfalfa hay every other day, 25% protein alfalfa, 10% moisture, would give you 2.25# dry matter. At 25% protein they would be getting .56# protein.
You could feed 10# alfalfa every third day if that works better for you. Your cows @30# day of your grass hay, are getting 26# as fed.
6.5% protein would give them 1.7# protein which is right at requirement until third trimester. 54% TDN gives them 14# energy.
So they are short on energy, but using alfalfa hay @2.5# p/h/da @60% TDN would give you 1.5# energy so that would be a total of
15.5# energy. What is the TDN in your cubes? It would be helpful to compare the cost of the two, alfalfa vs cubes and the nutrition
from each. 28% protein sounds good til you break it down to how much protein they are getting out of 1.5# of cubes. Protein that high tells me that some of it comes from urea. A little urea is okay but you don't want to much because it causes other problems....cows can't digest it so it takes a lot of energy for her to break it down to utilize it. What is the protein source in those cubes and what is the energy source? Can you post a tag?

Your comment about what happens when there is green grass showing, we found that putting out an old bale of anything....just set it out there--the cows won't eat it like they would when on full feed, but they'll come by and work on it and soon it is gone. Cows chase dry matter in the spring, not green grass--the green grass has everything they need, but it is high % moisture. We are finding out more all the time how important dry matter is. Putting out those old bales seems to make cattle more content and they will breed up better. We laughed when we were told this and we said 'they aren't going to eat that old junk stuff." We were wrong. We tried it and it sure does work.

You are right on, with your energy statement. In our country, protein is easily met, energy is what is lacking. I think you can get more energy in cows with something less expensive than cubes. But it depends on what the cubes are costing you.

This is an interesting thread.

I commend you for wanting to take care of your cows!
 



This is all the info they have been able to supply me with. Cost around $310 a ton. I understand with cubes i am going to pay for convenience. I like cubes for handling purposes. Cake broke cattle handle easily. It doesn't always come down to dollars and cents for me. I would like to direct this back to energy and phos levels somewhat. Thanks
 
I couldn't see the whole tag, but my question is "why are you feeding protein in a mineral supplement"? Curious as to how much they recommend a cow get per day in order to get the trace minerals they need. Without the protein, ours is recommended at 3-4 oz p/h/d.

Not sure how far you are from the plant, but don't forget shipping costs. I'm sure it is figured in the price you were quoted on the cubes, but there is a cost to get it to you.

Anyway, as you stated, for you there are other benefits to feeding cubes, or 'cake' as we call them. I do think it would be better to feed more than 3# every other day to get the most benefit from them.

Good luck!
 
I've got a load of dry distillers coming next week $115 a ton cheaper than alfalfa this year but it is just for tha calves. I have a couple hundred bales of pea and oat hay that should tide the protein over for the cows.
 
My comment might be a question, I'm not sure. I have been operating on the theory that a range cow could use a pound of protein per day when fed as 5 lbs of 20 percent alfalfa. We are in a three cutting irrigated alfalfa area. If I have been overfeeding I sure haven't noticed. Might be cheaper to feed DDG but we unroll all the other hay when we need to feed more than corn stalk grazing provides. I know every bottom line is different, this suits ours.
 
Denny said:
I've got a load of dry distillers coming next week $115 a ton cheaper than alfalfa this year but it is just for tha calves. I have a couple hundred bales of pea and oat hay that should tide the protein over for the cows.
Click to expand...
I know with Wheat DDGS you have to be careful with the Cal:phos ratio since the DDG are high in phos and low in Ca.
 
FH, would you think the heat involved in cubing degrades vitamine quality if you are feeding vitamins and minerals in the cubes? Otherwise, cubes 3 times a week is a great delivery vehicle for minerals.

I've raised some 25% protein hay, but I've raised a lot of alfalfa that might show at the state fair that's a lot closer to 20% cp.

Also, when cows are pretty much on welfare getting most or all their feed from a haybale, I like some of the tame hay. Decent millet hay or Sudan hay might be in the low teen area and not need supplementation beyond mineral pack.
 
RSL said:
Denny said:
I've got a load of dry distillers coming next week $115 a ton cheaper than alfalfa this year but it is just for tha calves. I have a couple hundred bales of pea and oat hay that should tide the protein over for the cows.
Click to expand...
I know with Wheat DDGS you have to be careful with the Cal:phos ratio since the DDG are high in phos and low in Ca.
Click to expand...

Yeah I've fed a lot of it thru the years and feed the appropriate mineral in this case which costs less due to be a low phos mineral.
 
Brad S said:
FH, would you think the heat involved in cubing degrades vitamine quality if you are feeding vitamins and minerals in the cubes? Otherwise, cubes 3 times a week is a great delivery vehicle for minerals.

I've raised some 25% protein hay, but I've raised a lot of alfalfa that might show at the state fair that's a lot closer to 20% cp.

Also, when cows are pretty much on welfare getting most or all their feed from a haybale, I like some of the tame hay. Decent millet hay or Sudan hay might be in the low teen area and not need supplementation beyond mineral pack.
Click to expand...

From what I have learned, it is an absolute that heat degrades vitamin/mineral quality. With that being said,
cattle that are on cake won't consume as much free-choice mineral. But that's ok, unless they haven't been
on a good mineral program prior to feeding cake. With lick tubs, unless the plant is very careful, adding a mineral pack--the mineral could stay in pockets, and not be dispersed throughout the tub. We suggest putting mineral out free-choice with the tubs. Again, they most likely won't eat as much of the loose mineral.

I think I have told this before....but an instance we ran into--a customer was feeding straight wheat hay and the cows started going down. The vet said it was milk fever--but these cows hadn't calved yet. I looked into and found it was 'winter tetany (symptoms are similar to milk fever and grass tetany). Anyway, we were able to help by changing mineral formulations. Wheat hay contains a lot of phos and the cows weren't eating their mineral because phos is a limiter. So they had a cal-phos inbalance. He went to a lower phos mineral that the cows would consume and that fixed the problem. Had he been feeding a mix of wheat hay and grass hay, the problem most likely would not have reared its ugly head.

To me, alfalfa is a protein supplement, not to be fed as a total feed. That can cause other problems--but it is a great supplement for protein. You get a lot out of alfalfa that is missing in other protein supplements.

FWIW :D
 
they measure energy by burning it --it's measured as calories or btu's.
I was told when figuring feedlot energy rations, with fat---you figure the value and double it.

which makes a lotta sense, if you've ever tried to lose weight....

I liked the fat in your cake. I like to figure actual cost for what I'm looking for # of protein, etc. I quite cake when cost of making it exceeded all ingredients in it.

your quality of hay, if it was mine--I would be figuring on all I could cram thru them. I have bovatec in my mneral to help this.

cow input---after about the first day---is limited by cow 'output'--a little alf is great and roughage slows it down.
 

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