Red Meat: Kills?

[Sandhusker]

It's one thing to politely discuss and another thing to descend into the rhetoric of PB which there is quite enough of in PB. I think we agree, right?

If you think that this is a place for polite discussions, you really ought to read some of the threads.

 

[Anonymous]

A dietitian was once addressing a large audience in Chicago.

"The material we put into our stomachs is enough to have killed most of us sitting here, years ago."
"Red meat is awful. Soft drinks erode your stomach lining. Chinese food is loaded with MSG. Vegetables can be disastrous due to chemicals and pesticides used on them, and none of us realizes the long-term harm caused by the germs in our drinking water."

"But there is one thing that is the most dangerous of all and we all have, or will, eat it. Can anyone here tell me what food it is that causes the most grief and suffering for years after eating it?"

A 75-year-old man in the front row stood up and said, "Wedding cake."

 

[RobertMac]

A dietitian was once addressing a large audience in Chicago.

"The material we put into our stomachs is enough to have killed most of us sitting here, years ago."
"Red meat is awful. Soft drinks erode your stomach lining. Chinese food is loaded with MSG. Vegetables can be disastrous due to chemicals and pesticides used on them, and none of us realizes the long-term harm caused by the germs in our drinking water."

"But there is one thing that is the most dangerous of all and we all have, or will, eat it. Can anyone here tell me what food it is that causes the most grief and suffering for years after eating it?"

A 75-year-old man in the front row stood up and said, "Wedding cake."

Actually the old man is correct...I doubt if anyone here, other than Graybull knows why! Sad!!!

mrj, you claim NCBA and CBB to be producer organizations...
Are there more producers today than in 1985?
Has beef made gains in market share since 1985?
National cattle herd numbers are at 1950's level...is that growth?
Has the producer's percent of the beef industry dollar increased or decreased?
What is the minimum number of cattle needed to provide a living income for a family?
How many producers have to have a town job to make ends meet?
How many acres of pasture in the southeast have been planted to pine trees?

You are a total blind partisan if you believe that the beef industry from the producer's perspective has improved since 1985!!!!

OT, why did the Ag financial industry collapse in 1980? Same basic problem this time, except on a larger scale. The seed was planted by Carter(D), given teeth by Clinton(D) which allowed lawyers like Obama(D) to sue banks(on behalf of ACORN) to make loans the banks knew would default, but the banks could sell to Freddie and Fannie and, thereby, get their greedy cut of the money. Republicans only made a half hearted effort to do something about the problem(but when have Republicans ever had balls to standup to Democrats). This financial problem is a government caused problem...why in hell would we want the government to take over more of our economy??????

reader, either answer what was addressed to you or go back to PB.

 

[Tex]

A dietitian was once addressing a large audience in Chicago.

"The material we put into our stomachs is enough to have killed most of us sitting here, years ago."
"Red meat is awful. Soft drinks erode your stomach lining. Chinese food is loaded with MSG. Vegetables can be disastrous due to chemicals and pesticides used on them, and none of us realizes the long-term harm caused by the germs in our drinking water."

"But there is one thing that is the most dangerous of all and we all have, or will, eat it. Can anyone here tell me what food it is that causes the most grief and suffering for years after eating it?"

A 75-year-old man in the front row stood up and said, "Wedding cake."

Actually the old man is correct...I doubt if anyone here, other than Graybull knows why! Sad!!!

mrj, you claim NCBA and CBB to be producer organizations...
Are there more producers today than in 1985?
Has beef made gains in market share since 1985?
National cattle herd numbers are at 1950's level...is that growth?
Has the producer's percent of the beef industry dollar increased or decreased?
What is the minimum number of cattle needed to provide a living income for a family?
How many producers have to have a town job to make ends meet?
How many acres of pasture in the southeast have been planted to pine trees?

You are a total blind partisan if you believe that the beef industry from the producer's perspective has improved since 1985!!!!

OT, why did the Ag financial industry collapse in 1980? Same basic problem this time, except on a larger scale. The seed was planted by Carter(D), given teeth by Clinton(D) which allowed lawyers like Obama(D) to sue banks(on behalf of ACORN) to make loans the banks knew would default, but the banks could sell to Freddie and Fannie and, thereby, get their greedy cut of the money. Republicans only made a half hearted effort to do something about the problem(but when have Republicans ever had balls to standup to Democrats). This financial problem is a government caused problem...why in hell would we want the government to take over more of our economy??????

reader, either answer what was addressed to you or go back to PB.

rm, this is not a dem or repub. issue (the current financial mess). It is an issue of sell out politicians willing to sell parts of the pillars of the economy for their own interests and the interests of their clients, not the public interests. The pillars have fallen and here we are. Trying to make this just a democrat or republican issue leaves out half the problem. The mortgage industry was way over leveraged with customers who would not cash flow when instruments adjusted and relied on an ever increasing price of homes that never continues. Mortgage brokers took risk premiums from borrowers but not the risk. It was sold mainly by Wall Street who also did not price risk or pass the knowledge of it on.

Fannie and Freddie had their problems but they didn't make Wall Street and investors invest in the securities that they did. Phil Gramm and the republicans allowed investment banks (along with Clinton) pushed deregulation and allowed the commercial and investment banks to meld which allowed banks to leverage with depositor's money.

Banks stopped doing main street banking and started doing Wall Street banking.

The main street banks are not the ones in trouble. The investment banks that helped securatize poor loan portfolios were.

I totally agree with you on the beef industry. Concentration and market games have been played by the packers and the courts have let them get away with it, ignoring the law and siding with big money and Alito's former clerk who they hired from K street. Our sorry food safety policy has cost us foreign markets in beef.

The NCBA has been an enabler to these junkies who revere money and power over individual rights.

 

[RobertMac]

Thank you, I hope Merrigan will separate regulation of small local production/marketing of food from the corporate system that has dominated (by hook or by crook, as Tex would say :wink: ). As my inspectors told me, that's where the health contamination problems are coming from. Corporate bought legislation has been used to run small competitors out of business.

I know some won't like her because that's what their organization will tell them.

 

[mrj]

reader, what has been your experience with "the appointing of NCBA lobbists and those in cahoots with them"?

Who would those people be and to which positions have they received appointment? What has been the result or effect of their appointments?

mrj

 

[mrj]

I missed some questions or accusations on previous pages.

Tex, what do you mean when you say "NCBA has been an enabler to these junkies wo revere money and power over individual rights"?

Did you know that NCBA works hard to protect rights, expecially private property rights?

RobertMac, your questions on page 4 are somewhat deceptive, IMO. For instance, you don't include any background and you attempt typical apples to oranges comparisons.

!. certainly there are not so many cattle producers today as in 1985. Does it require as many hours work today to care for x head of cattle today? Do fewer people want to work as hard as they did in 1985, or to have as few hours of leisure time? That well may be a bigger problem than many others attributed to decline in farmer/rancher numbers and young people going into the business.......as well as the fact that older producers don't want to quit and give other the opportunity to start up, according to many news stories the past few years.

How does tonnage of beef produced with todays' smaller cowherd compare with that of 1950"s???? THAT's growth!

How do you determine "the beef industry dollar"? Let alone decide who gets which "share" of it????

Minimum number of cattle to provide what level of a "living income"? What is the definition of that, btw? I think my family has lived rather frugally compared with some, maybe over the top compared with the few real penny pinchers. So what, really, is "a living income for a family"?

In my area, quite a few wives work in town for various reasons. Families work hard to be able to bring young peopl in to their farm or ranch businesses. Some people who love the industry will do that......some don't think it worth the effort, and some simply can't make it work no matter how hard they try. Bottome line: there are people making a living in the cattle business, there are people making an excellent living, and there are some who stay in it at bare survival levels.......as it has been for a very long time in the USA.

I don't know how things are in your part of the country, but in many areas, there are optimistic, successful people working darn hard to keep up their success, or help younger family members build their own successes.......and an awful lot of them are NDBA members.

Maybe the freedom to choose what people want to do has something to do with all your country being planted to pine trees. That's tough if you need some of those acres for your cattle, but that's life. Someone made that choice.

NCBA being the oldest, biggest, and most successful cattle PRODUCER organization in the country makes it appear an easy target for attacks by those jealous enough, and weak enough to think that is the only way to advance their own groups. It's happened before, and probably will again. Thank God plenty of people are not burdened with that sort of envy.

mrj

 

[RobertMac]

Excellent post Reader...unfortunately, mrj will never see the connections. She only believes information from one source.

mrj, all the questions I ask are issues tracked by USDA...you brought nothing to answer any of them. Simple question...are producers better off today than in 1985? or, how about 1977?

You debate just like Scott did...you build a fictitious straw man to make your counter points seem to have validity. I don't "hate" NCBA...I don't "hate" NCBA members...and I'm not envious of NCBA because I don't promote R-CALF. I disagree with the direction the beef industry is and has been going and, as YOU have stated, NCBA has been the lead organization. There is no doubt the USA cattle industry has declined because more of the USA beef industry's beef supply is coming from imports that the handful of packers have gotten by screwing over foreign producers. The cattle industry in my area is a fraction of what it used to be. Because you turn a blind eye to industry problems, doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[RobertMac]

Reader, before you go proclaiming Obama's appointees as our saviors, remember this(although it may have been before you time)...the demonization of beef started with the liberal Democrats under Sen. George McGovern. Obama and this Democrat leadership makes McGovern and his people seem like conservatives.

What are Merrigan's positions on beef and its nutritional place in the diet?
Reports, like the one that started this thread, are developed by a group deciding on a conclusion and then manipulating data to support that conclusion. You need to read Taubes' book...he shows how it is virtually impossible to reach dietary conclusion because there are too many variables that can't be eliminated. At best, these reports are inconclusive associations. Unfortunately, this type of research has been used to set wrong-headed dietary policy(also proven in his book) and the proof has been the ever rising obesity problem!

 

[PORKER]

Whats funny is that these two ran around the country exposing their onesided views and rules on COOL as Government spokesman.

Dale Moore, Chief of Staff to both Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman and Secretary Mike Johanns. Moore is the former executive director of the NCBA, and a former legislative director of the House Agriculture Committee.
* Charles Lambert, Deputy Under Secretary for USDA's Marketing and Regulatory Programs, and the former chief economist of and a lobbyist for the NCBA. Lambert's position at USDA put him in charge of supervising the Agricultural Marketing Service, which was responsible for writing the rules for a mandatory COOL program.

 

[Tex]

Key lobbyists from the meat industry who fought COOL before it became law were directly hired to fill strategic positions at the USDA, which was charged with crafting the regulations to implement COOL, including conducting a cost-benefit analysis that could make or break support for the rule. They are:

* Dale Moore, Chief of Staff to both Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman and Secretary Mike Johanns. Moore is the former executive director of the NCBA, and a former legislative director of the House Agriculture Committee.
* Charles Lambert, Deputy Under Secretary for USDA's Marketing and Regulatory Programs, and the former chief economist of and a lobbyist for the NCBA. Lambert's position at USDA put him in charge of supervising the Agricultural Marketing Service, which was responsible for writing the rules for a mandatory COOL program. By estimating an initial one-year implementation cost of up to $3.9 billion, with few benefits, the rules served to bolster critic's views that COOL would be too expensive to warrant implementing.
* Mary Waters, Assistant Secretary for Congressional Relations. Before accepting her position at USDA, Waters worked as a lobbyist for ConAgra, where lobbying against COOL was among her responsibilities. Waters, whose USDA job was to lobby Congress, presumably assisted in successfully convincing lawmakers to postpone implementation of COOL for two years and more recently to consider passing legislation to make it a voluntary program.

In addition, Anne Veneman herself and Alisa Harrison who Veneman brought along with her were both lobbyists for NCBA before they moved to the USDA.

mrj, I think reader answered your questions on the packer lackies here.

The Bush administration had them in positions of power while they worked against the public interests and for the interests of the packers and their propaganda. It was a sell out to money the packers spread in D.C.

Thankfully the new administration is not allowing Lambert's poorly written rules for COOL to stay. He has been an insider in the government working for the packers and is the epitome of a corrupt government that is bought off with big money's influence.

We have had the best government money can buy. I hope it changes in the new administration but change is hard when it comes to money and power.

 

[RobertMac]

Reader, it's not stupidity, it's ignorance. The public has been fed misinformation for years by media, nutritional, and medical professional based on flawed studies. You are on the right track, but even you, to use your word, are "stupid" concerning fats. Here is a link to help you out...I think you will find "The Oiling of America" interesting.

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html

What gripes me about CBB/NCBA is that information is out there, but the sources also shine the light of truth on other issues concerning commodity animal production. There is a reason 30% of beef livers are condemned for human consumption.

 

[mrj]

Reader, what is the source of your quote re "key lobbyists...."

Do any of you personally know any of these people you accuse of ill deeds?

Do you it to be factua that any of those people were told by NCBA or any other organization, agency, or person to get the jobs in USDA?

What is your source for the apparent and implied insider knowledge you claim with your remarks that "the Bush admin. had them in positions of power....It was a sell out to money the packers spread in D.C."? Don't such claims deserve validation? IMO, until there is validation, they are nothing more than opinions and conjecture. If you have it, flaunt it!!!!

mrj.

 

[Tex]

Reader, what is the source of your quote re "key lobbyists...."

Do any of you personally know any of these people you accuse of ill deeds?

Do you it to be factua that any of those people were told by NCBA or any other organization, agency, or person to get the jobs in USDA?

What is your source for the apparent and implied insider knowledge you claim with your remarks that "the Bush admin. had them in positions of power....It was a sell out to money the packers spread in D.C."? Don't such claims deserve validation? IMO, until there is validation, they are nothing more than opinions and conjecture. If you have it, flaunt it!!!!

mrj.

mrj, nobody cares about your standard of proof. We can see the connections for ourselves and don't have to run it through your faulty "truth meter". The republicans have found themselves in the same position. I wish it wasn't so because when we have a one party system, we all lose. We have had for far too long the same party of MONEY.

You have to be blind to not see the revolving door here.

 

[per]

Mjr, the book "Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes might be an interesting read for you.

 

[RobertMac]

Mjr, the book "Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes might be an interesting read for you.

Reading and understanding can be mutually exclusive...this is the most important health book ever written!!!!

 

[mrj]

RobertMac, what do you not understand in this statement: "Gary Taubes was a well received featured speaker at the NCBA convention"?

My understanding and comprehension are fine, thank you. It is TIME that is lacking in my life. You must have lots of 'field hands' to do your work so you can spend so much time reading and on the computer. Guess I need some of those to train to do my usual work so I can have more time for fun here!

mrj

 

[RobertMac]

RobertMac, what do you not understand in this statement: "Gary Taubes was a well received featured speaker at the NCBA convention"?

The question is...did you and others learn anything? Have you finished reading his book? :???:

My understanding and comprehension are fine, thank you. It is TIME that is lacking in my life. You must have lots of 'field hands' to do your work so you can spend so much time reading and on the computer. Guess I need some of those to train to do my usual work so I can have more time for fun here!

I found this novel idea...I trained my "field hands" to work for me, not me working for them...we're both happier!!!!

mrj

 

[mrj]

RobertMac, do you raise your own calves, that is, do you own cows?

If so, how is it possible to do NO work while properly caring for cows?

Recognizing that you do have an enviable climate working for you, are there not still some chores the human must do to care for the cattle?

Certainly not on the scale of raising them in the harsh climate our crew that has been working from daylight to well after dark in a wicked spring blizzard and the aftermath of it, to save the calves being born before our schedule, thanks to neighbors who calve early. But every climate has it's hazards, doesn't it. We have little problem with parasites, mud in winter, and associated cattle problems. You surely must have SOME problems for cattle inherent in your climate, which will affect even the best and healthiest of cattle.

The reference to "field hands" relates to one of the first questions we were asked by a 'southern' cousin, which was "how many field hands do you have"? I had to explain to her that in our area of the north, most of the labor on farms and ranches is by family members, and if there aren't enough of them we hire young friends, who are our social equals, and that many long term 'hired hands' are treated very much like family members with the exception that they often work fewer hours than the 'boss' does. Field hand appeared to be a 'southern' term for 'employee/hired man/woman' working on a farm or ranch.

mrj

 

[RobertMac]

mrj, I noticed the subtle racism of "field hands" ...no matter how you try to explain it away. The wonderful thing about production ag...we each get to run our operation the way we see fit.

I'd rather see your answer to my other question.