Faster horses
Well-known member
Get us some pictures of those bull calves, would you, Soapweed? I'd like to see them. Any idea of what or who the sires are?
Replacements...Raise or Buy
- Thread starter RobertMac
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Aztumbleweed
Well-known member
We do both Raise oue own replacements and buy some. Through the winter we will buy a couple of hundred replacements and about that many old cows. Thase will go into a couple of pastures I keep for that purpose. Come spring works we will look at all the heifers raised and bought and try to pick the best out of the lot. Who knows sometimes it actually works.I do run solid longhorn bulls on all of thefirst calvers. We run pretty good Angus bulls out in the herd though ( not as good as herefords and they dont take the heat as well but everybody likes black) 
Adios
Adios
Jinglebob
Well-known member
Faster horses said:
We had several older fella's in this country who would send their replacements to a young guy on the first of May or June. The guy getting the heifers got to pick the bulls he wanted to breed to and the owner paid for the bulls. Then the young guy would run the heifers until the fall of the year they first calved, and then send them back to the owner. The young guy got all of the calves and the owner got bred 3 year olds back. The owner provided the bulls the second year also. Both parties got cows bred the way they wanted and the older guy got heifers calved out and saved his grass for more mature cows and had an "evener" bunch of calves to sell.
When we bred heifers to longhorn bulls, we always picked out solid colored bulls and as big and stout as we could find. The heifers calved easy and the calves were sold right along with the rest of the calves. They did well. With the newer angus they have now a days, I've been hearing good things about using light birth wieght bulls and/or AI to them. Several of the neighbors have gotten along real well. The calves are small and seem to grow out better. Of course, having bigger cattle than everyone had 20 years ago has helped a bunch also.
I would like to get some old fashioned, small heifers, bred to the right longhorn, to calve again sometimes. The crossbreds made awful good cows. And the calving was easy.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Most everyone believes that their home-raised cows are better than bought animals...why don't you believe the same about home-raised bulls(not AI calves)?
Now Juan, you can tell us about your closed herd.
Now Juan, you can tell us about your closed herd.
Soapweed
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
The main problem with keeping home raised bulls is that cattle can easily become inbred. What would work good, though, is for a ranch to keep some good quality bull calves and do some trading with another similarily run ranch.
The home raised bull calves I kept this year are all from high quality purchased cows, so there will be an outcross by breeding these bulls to our home raised cows.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Soapweed said:
Soapweed, every breed of cattle was developed through closed genetic breeding and selection!
the_jersey_lilly_2000
Well-known member
I kept a couple bulls this year from our herd, but the cows they came from are some we bought last fall. So those calves are from a totally different set of genetics from my herd. They both are good lookin lil fellers, But will take some time to see how they fill out. One is about 9 mo old the other is about 5 months old. The reason behind keeping bulls is, that I think if they grow up on the place theres a whole lot fewer fences to repair.
although I am going to the Camp Cooley bull sale in November, and one at Mound Creek the last of October. I may or may not buy depends on how much they go for and what they look like. This will be a first for me, I've never gone somewhere like that to buy a bull. but from pictures and reading the material on their websites, I like what I see so far.
although I am going to the Camp Cooley bull sale in November, and one at Mound Creek the last of October. I may or may not buy depends on how much they go for and what they look like. This will be a first for me, I've never gone somewhere like that to buy a bull. but from pictures and reading the material on their websites, I like what I see so far.
Jason
Well-known member
Nice job of hazing Robert
A few problems in this keeping heifers business.
1. Crossbred herds that lose their original intent for the cross.
2. Purebred herds that never see if their homeraised cattle are truely superior.
3. Most producers think their own cattle are better than they really are.
In strict econimic terms I agree it is cheaper to buy replacements. However buying heifers as replacements isn't the cheapest either. I would agree bred back 3 year olds would be the best buy in terms of getting young yet good functional cows.
There are always a number of yearling heifers under any management style that won't breed. Then there is always a percentage of 2yr olds that don't breed back. Then there are some that miss on year 3. If you get them bred after that year the odds are pretty high they will reach a ripe old age.
Soapweeds advice about exposing all the heifers and selling the opens as feeders is good. That eliminates the first loss in a bred heifer program. Not all are set up to breed all their heifers, but if you want 25 new cows, expose 30 heifers.
Usually people compare their top quality heifers they keep with the cheapest cows they can buy and say they can't buy the quality they can raise. Those herds usually have much variation in their cattle as well. The cheapest cows one year might be a different type than the cheapest bunch the next.
Those that choose to buy the cheap cows can improve the calves by using the best bulls they can get, not bulls raised form those cheap cows.
Keeping bulls related to your own heifers again reduces the genetic diversity and starts a mongrel herd. I have shown this to neighbors that have kept bulls from their best cows for their own use.
Besides, buying a bull gives you the option of only buying the ones that semen test, if you keep your own and 10% don't test (national average is 20%) you take a beating on that percentage as they sell as cull bulls, not steers.
Soapweed has managed to "shortcurcuit" the traditional scenario by developing a relationship with a bull seller that likes to sell in volume. Actually we all do, but buyers that will consistantly take a large number of bulls every year is rare. I will bet that the bull seller in that deal buys expensive bulls or uses A.I. the epd's that Soapweed has in his bulls are indeed there just hidden.
The intangibles of raising your own heifers are the older cows teach them to forage on your own pastures. They are used to your method of handling them. They get to know where salt licks, water, gates etc are. No fighting by introducing new stock, and no exotic disease.
All this stuff makes the cattle biz interesting and keeps all of us gussing.
A few problems in this keeping heifers business.
1. Crossbred herds that lose their original intent for the cross.
2. Purebred herds that never see if their homeraised cattle are truely superior.
3. Most producers think their own cattle are better than they really are.
In strict econimic terms I agree it is cheaper to buy replacements. However buying heifers as replacements isn't the cheapest either. I would agree bred back 3 year olds would be the best buy in terms of getting young yet good functional cows.
There are always a number of yearling heifers under any management style that won't breed. Then there is always a percentage of 2yr olds that don't breed back. Then there are some that miss on year 3. If you get them bred after that year the odds are pretty high they will reach a ripe old age.
Soapweeds advice about exposing all the heifers and selling the opens as feeders is good. That eliminates the first loss in a bred heifer program. Not all are set up to breed all their heifers, but if you want 25 new cows, expose 30 heifers.
Usually people compare their top quality heifers they keep with the cheapest cows they can buy and say they can't buy the quality they can raise. Those herds usually have much variation in their cattle as well. The cheapest cows one year might be a different type than the cheapest bunch the next.
Those that choose to buy the cheap cows can improve the calves by using the best bulls they can get, not bulls raised form those cheap cows.
Keeping bulls related to your own heifers again reduces the genetic diversity and starts a mongrel herd. I have shown this to neighbors that have kept bulls from their best cows for their own use.
Besides, buying a bull gives you the option of only buying the ones that semen test, if you keep your own and 10% don't test (national average is 20%) you take a beating on that percentage as they sell as cull bulls, not steers.
Soapweed has managed to "shortcurcuit" the traditional scenario by developing a relationship with a bull seller that likes to sell in volume. Actually we all do, but buyers that will consistantly take a large number of bulls every year is rare. I will bet that the bull seller in that deal buys expensive bulls or uses A.I. the epd's that Soapweed has in his bulls are indeed there just hidden.
The intangibles of raising your own heifers are the older cows teach them to forage on your own pastures. They are used to your method of handling them. They get to know where salt licks, water, gates etc are. No fighting by introducing new stock, and no exotic disease.
All this stuff makes the cattle biz interesting and keeps all of us gussing.
Soapweed
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
You are undoubtedly right on that, BUT, there are already umpty-nine different cattle breeds. The incentive for "a closed genetic breeding and selection program" to develop yet another breed is really no longer there. I have watched different ranchers through the years that kept both their own heifers and their own bulls to make a mongrel inbred herd. It doesn't work. An outcross makes much better offspring.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Soapweed said:
Not talking about developing anther breed...just perfecting the herd for the natural resources on the ranch and management. Wanting to understand why ranchers know their heifers are better than they can buy, but doubt their bull calves.
Soapweed
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
If you are keeping fifty replacement heifers, you need two or three bulls to service them. To get a useful outcross, it is easy to go buy three bulls. Putting the shoe on the other foot, if you keep three good home-raised bulls, it is a lot more trouble to go out and buy fifty heifers for them to cavort with.
shorthorn
Well-known member
Soapweed said:
Ahh but there is a new breed that is very exciting. Durham reds shorthorn red angus cross. Very much compiments each other. You can read about them on the shorthorn web site.Very interesting data. Heterosis on 4 legs and breeding cows. How sweet that could be for the commercial rancher.
Faster horses
Well-known member
Long time ago, there was a fellow in W. Montana that raised Angus crossed with Shorthorn. Man, those were good calves. They all had some gray in the tassle on their tail~that was about the only way you could tell they weren't straight Angus. And did they weigh up good.
I'm going to look into that website. Thanks for posting it.
The fellow who helped us get started in this business had some roan cows and they were always my favorites. They were shorthorn cross.
The best milk cow we ever had was a Holstein Shorthorn cross. We called her 'Blue' as she was blue roan. She was a dandy.
I'm going to look into that website. Thanks for posting it.
The fellow who helped us get started in this business had some roan cows and they were always my favorites. They were shorthorn cross.
The best milk cow we ever had was a Holstein Shorthorn cross. We called her 'Blue' as she was blue roan. She was a dandy.
shorthorn
Well-known member
Yes it will be a good cross. I just went and bought some shorthorn/black angus cross f1's yesterday and they were in a pen beside some reistered angus heifers that were born the same time and man what a differance. He priced the registered heifers to me for 50 dollars more and i said no way. He laughed and said thats what everybody says. LOL He is a registered angus breeder who sells a lot of bulls and heifers than he also runs a feedlot. The reason for the cross calves is the shorthorn angus crosses were making him more money on the rail.
Faster horses
Well-known member
Really? That is new information to me. The last I knew the Shorthorn's down side was the carcass quality.
I bet they got busy and corrected that since the time I heard it.
That is good news! You have my interest!
I bet they got busy and corrected that since the time I heard it.
That is good news! You have my interest!
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Alot of shorthorns have a touch of Maine in then now-I do know that at the college bull test the Shorthorns have the best ultrasound data of any breed. Lots of marbling and good lean yield. We've got old blue roan cow is a pretty good old campaigner.
Twenty or thirty years ago I bought a bunch of calves to feed out from Texas Santa Gretrudis (spell) - - - I understood them to be a cross of Shorthorn and Bramma but can't remember for sure. Seemed to do well but can't remember why I didn't go back for more.
Are they still popular in Texas - - or better still were they ever popular :?
Are they still popular in Texas - - or better still were they ever popular :?
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Aren't Gerties 5/8 Brahma and 3/8 Shorthorn-I always remember a picture in the old ABS catalogues of a 25 year old Santa Getrudis cow-she was one sweet deal-sound as the CANADIAN dollar lol.
the_jersey_lilly_2000
Well-known member
From the King ranch website, Can't find a % listed
King Ranch developed the Santa Gertrudis breed to function in hot, humid and unfavorable environments. The Santa Gertrudis was developed by crossing Indian Brahman cattle with British Shorthorns. In 1920, years of experimentation culminated with the birth of Monkey, a deep red bull calf. Monkey became the foundation sire for not just a superior line of cattle, but an entirely new breed. In 1940, the Santa Gertrudis breed was recognized by the U.S. Department of Agriculture as the first beef breed developed in the United States, and was the first breed developed world-wide in more then a century.
From Cattle today breed listing
Santa Gertrudis cattle are approximately five-eighths Shorthorn and three-eighths Brahman. They are a deep cherry-red color with a relatively high degree of both heat and tick resistance. Santa Gertrudis females are known for their exceptional maternal traits. Their characteristics include ease of calving, good mothering ability and abundant milk supply.
King ranch has also developed another breed, The Santa Cruz
(from cattle today breed listing)
Santa Cruz cattle represent over ten years of intense research and development by the King Ranch aimed at creating a more market acceptable beef animal that produced superior results as both a feeder and seedstock animal in hot, humid, and unfavorable environments. The Santa Crus is a composite of ½ Santa Gertrudis, ¼ Red Angus and ¼ Gelbvieh.
There are both polled and horned individuals. In color, they range from a light red or honey to a Santa Gertrudis cherry red. Mature weight in cows ranges from 1,100 - 1,200 pounds, while bulls tip the scales from 1,800 - 2,000 pounds.
King Ranch developed the Santa Gertrudis breed to function in hot, humid and unfavorable environments. The Santa Gertrudis was developed by crossing Indian Brahman cattle with British Shorthorns. In 1920, years of experimentation culminated with the birth of Monkey, a deep red bull calf. Monkey became the foundation sire for not just a superior line of cattle, but an entirely new breed. In 1940, the Santa Gertrudis breed was recognized by the U.S. Department of Agriculture as the first beef breed developed in the United States, and was the first breed developed world-wide in more then a century.
From Cattle today breed listing
Santa Gertrudis cattle are approximately five-eighths Shorthorn and three-eighths Brahman. They are a deep cherry-red color with a relatively high degree of both heat and tick resistance. Santa Gertrudis females are known for their exceptional maternal traits. Their characteristics include ease of calving, good mothering ability and abundant milk supply.
King ranch has also developed another breed, The Santa Cruz
(from cattle today breed listing)
Santa Cruz cattle represent over ten years of intense research and development by the King Ranch aimed at creating a more market acceptable beef animal that produced superior results as both a feeder and seedstock animal in hot, humid, and unfavorable environments. The Santa Crus is a composite of ½ Santa Gertrudis, ¼ Red Angus and ¼ Gelbvieh.
There are both polled and horned individuals. In color, they range from a light red or honey to a Santa Gertrudis cherry red. Mature weight in cows ranges from 1,100 - 1,200 pounds, while bulls tip the scales from 1,800 - 2,000 pounds.