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Scotch Cap Angus

Jason said:
Have either of you ever used their genetics?

Have either of you ever seen a wreck because of their genetics?

If not, your just repeating a bias.

I agree those kinds of weights take some groceries, but they have always backed any size with carcass data. The original Scotch Cap bull was and still is a carcass trait leader.

I have seen cows that stop growing under tougher ranch conditions, but will become monsters if the feed resources are available. I have also seen some of the biggest cows be the easiest fleshing and easiest breeding cows.

Management can add 100 or more pounds to 205 day weights. Good moisture areas can be managed easier than dry areas.

Commercial ranchers bought the majority of their bulls, paid good money, and came back year after year. Repeat business says they worked.
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I want to be very "upfront" with my remarks here. I have never been to Hoff's Ranch, nor have I had the privilege of meeting Doug nor Molly - but their successes with breeding Angus cattle are legion. The conundrum which seems to prevail in these posts parallels that which exists at times with other subjects which contain differences of opinions - what is one person's meat is another person's poison. I have observed with interest the quantum leaps which the "Scotch Cap" cattle have precipitated in the improvement of Genetics of the Angus breed. The old adage of "Pretty Is as Pretty Does" seems to fit very well in this instance. If "Scotch Cap" breeding - or any OTHER line - will work in conjunction with, or improve, a breeder's HERD Genetics, I think it is incumbent upon him/her to carefully investigate the purchase possibilities with an open mind and with an unbiased point of view, keeping their ultimate goals in the forefront of their mind at all times.

There is often a disparity between the genetic requirements of a Terminal producer and those of a Registered (Purebred) or Cow/calf operation. It is vital that a Producer (Breeder) thoroughly understands what his REAL phenotypic and genetic requirements are before he starts throwing traits and characteristics around in a helter-skelter manner - - - such as "changing breeds or chasing 'fads' " and not having a clue as to why it is being done!

"CONDEMNATION BEFORE INVESTIGATION" is seldom a wise choice.

DOC HARRIS
 
Point well taken Doc H. I have seen the cattle, do not care for them, and yes, I pay attention to what the cull cows weigh in the sale barn reports. We try and stay medium framed, and we sold a cow that weighed more than I will admit to on this forum. I happen to know that she was still smaller than a lot of SC cows. Notice, I did not say that no one should use them, and I am not interested in character assination, so I will leave it at that. That was never my point.

I honestly wish them well in the future.
 
So what if they produce 3,000 lb. cows !! How is that any skin off any ones nose but theirs :???:

I have used Hoffs Limited Edition and am well pleased with the results. Even if I wasn't pleased, I wouldn't blame them. Up till now no one has been telling me which cattle to buy or not to buy.
 
There are farm cattle, and there are ranch cattle.

No big deal.

The only trouble comes when one accuses the other of having the wrong kind of cattle.

Put a ranch cow on the farm, she'll get fat, but usually raise calves. In a few instances, she might quit for you in terms of reproduction because of her fatness.

Put a farm cow on the ranch, and she'll eat you out of house and home before she comes up open, but generally wean a big calf until she does.

The part of Canada where Jason is has a heck of a lot milder Winter's with more feed resources than SD where Tap and Juan are, even if it is farther North.

For big cattle, Hoff's are the best, but they are big. If we could have cattle of all sizes with the "look" of Hoff's we'd sure all be able to sell them easy enough. Too big is too big, though, so looks, depth, quality, whatever you want to call it don't make up for too big for the resources.

Tap and Juan don't need to try the bulls to know they won't work for them. It doesn't make them biased, either. It makes them knowledgable about their resource base relative to their genetics.

What I've noticed on the boards talking about the Hoff cattle, is that no one faults them for their "type", only their size. I like the way they look. They are too big for me. Of course, our home place is only 100 miles from Hoff's. One of our neighbors bought lots of bulls from them, but he likes to bale and and feed with a tractor.

Another thing I've noticed is that most of the buyers at their sales are commercial buyers (like at virtually 100% of anyones ones sale who has had at least 3 sales, so it's a moot point). The only guys who don't sell to a predominnanlty commercial base are some of the newer start-up Angus sales. Any of the big boys that might sell to AI studs, other purebred breeders, overseas, etc, still sell the largest number of their bulls to commercial folks.

But the thing I find most noticeable is that the farther away from Bison, SD you get, the more people on these boards seem to like them.


Badlands
 
Jason said:
You didn't even understand what I wrote.JB.

YES, I DO. I DON'T THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. LIKE SOME OF THE COMMENTS BELOW, I'M NOT SAYING THEY ARE NOT FOR ANYONE, JUST NOT FOR ME.

Hoff genetics will not get everyone 2000 pound cows.

Even Dougs cows don't weigh that as a norm.

I AM AFTER THE AVERAGE OF HIS HERD. IF HE HAS SOME THAT BIG, THEN I AM AFRAID OF WHAT HIS "AVERAGE" WOULD BE.

I have Hoff genetics and have some 1300- 1500 pound cows smaller than some of my Traveler bred cows.

Spouting off about big cows are bad is your bias showing through. Bigger weight cows don't always cost more to run, surface area of their skin determines maintance needs. Sometimes a thicker cow will need less than a slim cow to survive a winter.

MAYBE THIS IS TRUE IN YOUR COUNTRY, BUT NOT IN MINE. IF BIGGER WAS BETTER, WE WOULD ALL BE RAISING ELEPHANTS OR THE EQUIVLENT TO IT. HOW BIG ARE YOUR CATTLE WHEN THEY REACH CHOICE OR PRIME? HOW BIG OF STEAKS DO YOU LIKE TO EAT?

I, LIKE MOST CONSUMERS, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, DON'T WANT ONE TOO BIG, SO IF WE RAISE BIGGER CATTLE, WE MUST COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT WAY TO CUT THE STEAKS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WRONG, ONLY THAT WE MUST MAKE A CHANGE.

PLEASE READ THE REST OF THE COMMENTS. THEY MIGHT ENLIGHTEN YOU. I NEVER SAID THAT I DIDN'T LIKE THE PEOPLE. I SAID THAT THE CATTLE THEY RAISED WERE TOO BIG FOR ME. NOT FOR YOU. OR ANYONE ELSE.

MY CATTLE MUST LIVE ON MINIMUMS. COME SPEND A WINTER NEXT TO ME AND THEN TELL ME WHAT COW WORKS BEST. BELIEVE ME, ALL OF MY NEIGHBORS AND I HAVE TRIED TO COME UP WITH THE PERFECT COW. SO FAR, WE'VE ONLY COME CLOSE!
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:wink: :lol:
 
Badlands said:
But the thing I find most noticeable is that the farther away from Bison, SD you get, the more people on these boards seem to like them.


Badlands
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Ain't that the truth about most things? :lol:

"No man can be a prophet, in his own hometown."
 
FYI JB, the steers from my bulls are usually in the 1400 pound range with a 98% choice grade.

What I try to get for my customers is a 600 lb weaning wt. and a minmum 1200 pound slaughter.

I have been told many times my cows are too big, even by some purebred breeders than actually have bigger cows than I do, but my feed costs are lower than almost anyone commercial or purebred, I make my cows work.

My customers almost always outwean me, the crossbreeding or better pasture conditions show. I have had the opportunity to custom feed some pampered show cows for a friend and see how they react to my conditions. They lost a fair bit of weight, but all bred back and were starting to earn their keep.

My feed resources are less than in many areas of SD, the area I am in is more like what many of the posters on the board here have. Irrigation would give me an advantage if I had any, but I just live by the sky, getting whatever rain comes along. About 3 inches total this growing season.

I have fed enough genetics and know what it takes to get these bulls that are from little dumpy cows to look good enough to sell, and I would rather sell a bull fed less with a bit of genetic power behind him, than try to push a small growth bull to be big enough to reach cows.

Buyers always say they want lean bulls, but always pay more for a fat one. Even on a very minimal ration, they look for the bull in my pen that has the most fat...they always look better.

I agree no one has found the perfect cow, but the perfect herd is one that uses the best genetics and culls anything that doesn't work.
 
Jason said:
FYI JB, the steers from my bulls are usually in the 1400 pound range with a 98% choice grade.

What I try to get for my customers is a 600 lb weaning wt. and a minmum 1200 pound slaughter.

I have been told many times my cows are too big, even by some purebred breeders than actually have bigger cows than I do, but my feed costs are lower than almost anyone commercial or purebred, I make my cows work.

My customers almost always outwean me, the crossbreeding or better pasture conditions show. I have had the opportunity to custom feed some pampered show cows for a friend and see how they react to my conditions. They lost a fair bit of weight, but all bred back and were starting to earn their keep.

My feed resources are less than in many areas of SD, the area I am in is more like what many of the posters on the board here have. Irrigation would give me an advantage if I had any, but I just live by the sky, getting whatever rain comes along. About 3 inches total this growing season.

I have fed enough genetics and know what it takes to get these bulls that are from little dumpy cows to look good enough to sell, and I would rather sell a bull fed less with a bit of genetic power behind him, than try to push a small growth bull to be big enough to reach cows.

Buyers always say they want lean bulls, but always pay more for a fat one. Even on a very minimal ration, they look for the bull in my pen that has the most fat...they always look better.

I agree no one has found the perfect cow, but the perfect herd is one that uses the best genetics and culls anything that doesn't work.
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Now that, I can agree with. :)
 
"No man can be a prophet, in his own hometown."
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Jinglebob, I thought in this situation, I have a more fitting quote. How about "anybobdy can be an expert if they are more than 100 miles from home". :wink:

I happen to know more about this situation than I am telling, but I cannot see what I could accomplish from telling it. Juan might too.

To each his own.
 
Tap said:
"No man can be a prophet, in his own hometown."
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Jinglebob, I thought in this situation, I have a more fitting quote. How about "anybobdy can be an expert if they are more than 100 miles from home". :wink:

I happen to know more about this situation than I am telling, but I cannot see what I could accomplish from telling it. Juan might too.

To each his own.
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Yup, I think yours is more apropriate. :-) :wink:
 
I'm sure Doug would be the first to admit he has made some breeding mistakes... any honest purebred breeder would.

His contribution the the breed has been more positive than negative and that is something to be proud of.

Even the genetics that have advanced the breed as a whole won't click with some cattle, and poor results are possible, and even expected in a small amount of situations.

If 1 bull was garanteed to work with every cow, that bull would be truely priceless.
 
katrina said:
The bottom line is that it is an end to an era and a new chapter begins for the Hoff family. I wish them the best of luck and prosperity...
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Me too. Maybe they will go into raising corn and make it possible to raise 300 bushel corn on dryland. :-)
 
:shock:

Too funny, Jinglebob.

I don't think the point was ever about poor results, clicking, breed contributions, or mistakes though that is where it ended up.

A appreciate the "whole other page" that you, Tap and Juan are on relative to the purebred breeders on this and other Hoff dispersal strings.

Badlands
 
Tap said:
"No man can be a prophet, in his own hometown."
Click to expand...

Jinglebob, I thought in this situation, I have a more fitting quote. How about "anybobdy can be an expert if they are more than 100 miles from home". :wink:

I happen to know more about this situation than I am telling, but I cannot see what I could accomplish from telling it. Juan might too.

To each his own.
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You have it exactly right Tap. :clap:
 
Gee whiz, I'd hate to be a successful purebred breeder. Looks like an opportunity to get crucified! Seems like the more successful a person or outfit is, the more people want to take shots at them. Guess that's the way it is all around the world and in every profession or occupation. You get to the top and people start taking shots at you. That's the price of fame.

One thing is certain, nobody has ever been forced to buy a bull or female from anyone. Therefore, an outfit's success is founded on the demand from their customers. Sure, some people will be one-time buyers and not come back because they weren't pleased with the result. But it's pretty hard to have one of the top herds in the nation without creating a good dose of acceptance among the commercial breeders. If the cattle are wrong for the industy, they will be found out sooner or later.

For me, I'm glad that we have a lot of diversity in our cattle populations. This allows us to make choices and use what works best for each individual ranch or farm. Heck, breeding livestock wouldn't be much fun if everyone had the very best! As well, I've seen some pretty high input ranches that also pull in a big payday. Some folks don't mind haying and feeding, as long as that includes quite a few more dollars in payweight or premiums, etc.

As far as size goes, I'm getting a little weary from all of the discussion these past couple of years. Do what makes you the most money. If that path takes you to a dead end or an extreme that you don't want, hopefully you can fix the trend before you reach the end. As for the Hoffs, I congratulate them. Success is success. Anyone that comes by it honestly should be proud of it.

If others on this board know of negative personal issues about these folks, I wish they'd just leave well enough alone. We're not on this board to air other people's dirty laundry.
 
High Plains said:
Gee whiz, I'd hate to be a successful purebred breeder. Looks like an opportunity to get crucified! Seems like the more successful a person or outfit is, the more people want to take shots at them. Guess that's the way it is all around the world and in every profession or occupation. You get to the top and people start taking shots at you. That's the price of fame.

One thing is certain, nobody has ever been forced to buy a bull or female from anyone. Therefore, an outfit's success is founded on the demand from their customers. Sure, some people will be one-time buyers and not come back because they weren't pleased with the result. But it's pretty hard to have one of the top herds in the nation without creating a good dose of acceptance among the commercial breeders. If the cattle are wrong for the industy, they will be found out sooner or later.

For me, I'm glad that we have a lot of diversity in our cattle populations. This allows us to make choices and use what works best for each individual ranch or farm. Heck, breeding livestock wouldn't be much fun if everyone had the very best! As well, I've seen some pretty high input ranches that also pull in a big payday. Some folks don't mind haying and feeding, as long as that includes quite a few more dollars in payweight or premiums, etc.

As far as size goes, I'm getting a little weary from all of the discussion these past couple of years. Do what makes you the most money. If that path takes you to a dead end or an extreme that you don't want, hopefully you can fix the trend before you reach the end. As for the Hoffs, I congratulate them. Success is success. Anyone that comes by it honestly should be proud of it.

If others on this board know of negative personal issues about these folks, I wish they'd just leave well enough alone. We're not on this board to air other people's dirty laundry.
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Thank you High Plains. I think you said that very well.
I for one like large frame Angus cattle. And if youwant to sell bulls in the southeast they better have some frame on them of the farmers will discount them.
 
I have some Hoff Bred cows they are in the 1400# range and some are a bit waspy but that makes for some fun.They do raise the biggest calves on the place and have held up pretty well these cattle were'nt bought from Hoff's but one of their long time bull customers.My old bull is full of Hoff genectics and is about 1800# mature weight and 54" hip height his daughters are 4-5 frame cows with average udders.They seem to milk well and hold their flesh more than I can say for the traveler bred bull he replaced :wink: as in all things

You can please some of the people some of the time,part of the people part of the time.But you can't please all of the people all of the time.
 
I agree with you Highplains.

That's the great thing about ranching we can do it our own way(To a point) as long as we pay the bills.
I know it's hard to beat a longhorn hereford cross but some of us are slow learners.
 

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