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SD westriver lockout- OVER??

I know a guy who works for IL DNR... Nice guy but he has a job to do and he will do it... Darn good shot with a bow and so is his boy... He is no longer a CPO but stll does a little work during the season due to man power shortcomings.



We have less DNR CPO's in this state than we he have counties, have seen one with sirens blaring once in the 6 years we have been here and it was followed by a county mounty as well (We don't have local cops, only state or county) too.. MY guess is tresspassing with firearms, never heard anything mind you but they were crusising fast... I actually wish they would be around more because we have lots of tresspassing and poaching that goes on off... People are unclear about that asking persmission thing...

Maybe they are more prevelant down south than around here..
 
Mrs.Greg said:
Can I ask a question in all honesty. Why would you want fish and game locked out?We've had two incedents with poachers,one on gregs brothers land where the poachers cut the wire on his fence and trespassed on posted land,fish and game caught them and they were procecuted ,lost privilages and guns.The other was a guide we refused permission to hunt on our land,he disobeyed,once again fish cops caught him and he went to court over trespassing on our and others land. We LIKE fish cops.

I reread the thread,apparently theres more animosity to it then I realised,ignore my question. :oops:
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She is talking about locking the fish and feathers out from going on your private property when THEY want to, but she isn't against them going on it when SHE wants them to......meaning that if there was a poacher, she could call fish and feathers and they would go out and check. LB is just saying she don't want them going out there without her permission to check on hunters like the law currently states............is that right LB?
 
You've got that right TX, although the chances of me calling GF&P if I have a law enforcement problem are in the "slim to none" category as long was we have REAL law enforcement in our county.

Since it's well known that I campaigned with a promise to try to create some legislative oversight of GF&P, many people have come to me with complaints they have about the department that is, in actuality, accountable to no one but the governor.

I and some other legislators would like to see the head of GF&P elected by the game commissioners and work under their control. We also want a percentage of the license money returned to the county where the licenses were sold for road and bridge funds the way they used to be. These two issues, along with ending the Open Fields Doctrine, are what we are going to work hard to accomplish.
 
Faster horses said:
Game Wardens are Officers of the Law, I believe. But FS personnel
are not and should not be packing guns for law enforcement.

Someone can please correct me if I am wrong.
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In Montana Game Wardens are considered Peace Officers under the state law termination- and therefore can pack weapons... They didn't (optional) until in 1978 when a Warden went along with a Highway Patrolman to serve a traffic warrent and they both ended up shot and killed up by Libby in that backwoods hillbilly hippie doper country.....They have power of arrest altho their authority has been limited to laws falling under the Fish and Game code- same as Highway Patrol are limited to Highway and Traffic codes (we didn't want a state police- still don't)...

Federal Fish and Wildlife are federal law enforcement- and do pack weapons- but I don't know where FS sets, I think you are right...They used to contract much of their enforcement to the Sheriff's Offices......BLM also has Rangers that are federal enforcement and pack guns-- the local one being the red headed wife of a rancher, who I always give a bad time about being the cutest pistol packing momma- or that she has the muddiest truck in Montana ( lives 40 miles out in the breaks on 30 miles of dirt road....

I think GVW are still considered enforcement officers and not Peace Officers and are not allowed to pack a weapon- altho they have power of arrest over the GVW codes.....
 
Oldtimer, I hate to broadcast my ignorance, but what is GVW?

I have another question for you - if a game warden in Montana checks licenses on private property are they also required to find out if the hunter has permission to hunt on that land?

In South Dakota I have heard complaints about game wardens coming on private land to check hunters without bothering to find out if they are hunting with permission and a couple of times when they found out the hunter was trespassing the CO did nothing about it. It "wasn't his job"!!

Of course the CO didn't have permission to trespass either, so that may have affected his judgment. :evil:
 
Liberty Belle said:
Oldtimer, I hate to broadcast my ignorance, but what is GVW?
Gross Vehicle Weights- the trucker boys-some are in the scalehouses, and some patrol-- also the ones checking the fuel tanks for offroad diesel..

I have another question for you - if a game warden in Montana checks licenses on private property are they also required to find out if the hunter has permission to hunt on that land?

I don't know if its a must- but I know some do...We have a law where the hunter must have written permission to hunt, so they can check that...Around here, so much land is owned by the BLM or State- with intermittent pieces of deeded land (1/4 & 1/2 sections- old homesteads) interspersed in between- many times unfenced- that its hard to tell and hard to enforce...But I know if you have problems with trespassers or poachers, they'll keep an eye on the place and check it..

I think we're the same here as everywhere- a few wardens are great guys, but some are pure power hungry dinks- and my problem with Fish and Game, like many state agencies, is that they have no local control over them...Some can never acclimate themselves to the social political attitudes of the area they are working.... Since some of my land is in block management- I know they check to make sure they have picked up a permission card and signed in at the sign in box...

In South Dakota I have heard complaints about game wardens coming on private land to check hunters without bothering to find out if they are hunting with permission and a couple of times when they found out the hunter was trespassing the CO did nothing about it. It "wasn't his job"!!

Of course the CO didn't have permission to trespass either, so that may have affected his judgment. :evil:

I really haven't heard any problems with that around here lately- I've been in Block Management about 8 years and they call me several times a year checking on how things are going- or if I have any suggestions- then they usually stop in at least a couple times...They also hold a free dinner every fall before hunting season for participants- usually prime rib or roast beef :D ... Introduce all the new wardens and personnel- give an overview of any law changes and the game situation...Good P/R for them...
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It sounds like your game and fish has a little more accountability than ours does. And thank goodness they feed you beef at that supper and not wild game!!!

Now I have some more questions if you have time to answer them: Is the head of your game and fish elected or appointed? Are they under the control of the legislature? Is there any oversight of their books and is any of the license revenue returned to the counties it came from?
 
The Fish and Game Director and the 7 or 8 Commissioners (local folks from the districts around the state- usually that the Governor owes a favor too) are appointed by the Governor --the commissioners have term limits- the Director serves at the pleasure of the Governor...The director and Commisioners do the hiring and firing of employees, set rules and regulations, game limits and seasons....

The Legislatures only control is mostly budgetary- and passing any new game laws requested...Not sure about their books- once the legislature gives them the money- its pretty well up to them to spend it, following the state or legislated guidelines...All State/County/City agencies are audited every other year or so for the previous years....
Not sure about where the license revenue goes- I believe most goes back to the Fish and Game coffers... You have me curious so I may do some more checking on that...I do know that the block management program which pays landowners to allow hunting is funded by a portion of the out of state hunters license cost.....

The problem I heard/saw most when I was Sheriff was that we are in a remote area- where a lot of the wardens and their wifes don't want to live- so this is automatically the first post of the brand new badge carrying, gun packing, fresh out of school, save the environment and beasties Game Warden...Many times their nearest Supervisor was a couple hundred miles away....And these guys had no idea of the country, or the people....And about the time (3-4 years) they'd get acclimated to the feelings of the area, get to know the landowners, and the problem areas- another opening would come up in a more desireable area and they'd be gone and we'd start all over again....Some of the old Supervisors were good guys- but just putting in the last couple years before they had their 30 in and could retire....They didn't give much supervision...Being 400 miles from Helena, this was an area they could just hide and be forgotten....
 
Faster horses said:
OT, in regard to your last paragraph, I think that is exactly what
happens here. We have a lot of Game Wardens come and go.
Never realized why before, until I read your post.
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Yeah- So many of these kids anymore are biology, forestry, or wildlife graduates- many of which come from the mountains areas (Bozeman, Missoula, Helena, etc) , where their wives are accustomed to the bigger city shopping and benefits...And some are from out of state, back east, or California. Takes them 15 years to think right (like a Montanan :wink: :lol: )

There were a lot of old Game Wardens I worked with that were great guys- but they came from all over the state- many farm and ranch raised kids...Then the Fish and Game began requiring college degrees- and I think the quality of their personell went into the dumps...They seemed to lose a lot of their ability to communicate with the common folk- almost to the point of we can't lower our standards to talk to you...Many of the old Wardens used to comment about it, too- they truly felt the college degree requirement limited the agency applicants and that the new breed was taking a different direction...What the old guys lacked in formal education they made up for in common sense- which some of the new breed never did get....
 
Everything you have said makes plenty of sence to me. I think that may be what is happening out in western SD..... Most dont want to live there and are probably trying to make a name for themselves with their supervisors to get the heck out of there to somewhre when a job opens. I have run into some real power hungry prick wardens out hunting, but others are super nice, knowledgable and helpful people who really enjoy what they do.

How is the campaign coming LB???? Putting on alot of miles and shaking alot of hands/kissing babys? I have to hand it to ya, there is no way on this earth i would want to be in politics!
 
LB:In South Dakota I have heard complaints about game wardens coming on private land to check hunters without bothering to find out if they are hunting with permission and a couple of times when they found out the hunter was trespassing the CO did nothing about it. It "wasn't his job"!!

LB do you have proof not hearsay of such?

LB:We also want a percentage of the license money returned to the county where the licenses were sold for road and bridge funds the way they used to be. These two issues, along with ending the Open Fields Doctrine, are what we are going to work hard to accomplish.

Are your counties then willing to pay your DOW for CO enforceement and biology matters? Also if your Game Dept is self run from license sales and not general funds why would you think you should get money for roads and bridges? You have that much hunting traffic that the sportsman should be using sportsman dollars for general state up keep? When road and bridge repairs already receive funding from Feds,state and county's now?

LB:I and some other legislators would like to see the head of GF&P elected by the game commissioners and work under their control.

Your game commision is the one who sets seasons, makes rule and reg changes and overseas the policy of your DOW correct? So how much power does your Game commision already have? Also having to answer to a board of people who all have different agendas, versus answering to the Governor boy I hope he has rubber arms because he/she will surely be pulled from many directions under that deal.

Here is from your states website LB; 1970 -- Reorganization of department. Combined divisions of fisheries, land, game, and law enforcement into the Division of Wildlife. This made the local conservation officer responsible for all fish, land, game and law enforcement activities in his area.

1973 -- Executive orders, reorganizing state government, were issued by Governor Richard Kneip. The orders placed the Game, Fish and Parks Commission under the direction and supervision of the department and the secretary. However, the order allowed the commission to retain quasi-judicial, quasi-legislative, advisory and other nonadministrative and special budgetary functions, independent of the Secretary of Game, Fish and Parks. This order also gave the Governor the authority to appoint the secretary.
 
There is a law in SD that says the hunter is to have written permission to hunt. That being said, i can tell you that i have never been asked for it. I can also tell you this, i have never had a landowner write me a note nor have i ever had a landowner say "hold up there fella, i gotta go write you a permission slip" IT just dont happen. I have never been stopped ON private land. Only when i come off it but the areas i usually hunt have section lines and roads around each mile, the warden has no reason to come on the land. He can see with his spotting scope almost everywhere from the road. So what if the hunter had a piece of paper that says they have permission? Who is to say the landowner wrote that note??? What if they had a note iin hand, should the warden go to the owner and verify they wrote it? What if the owner lived in New Jersey? Just consider the note valid? I think most wardens can tell by the actions of the hunter if they have permission or not. I am not sure if the job of the game warden is to verify if they have permission. I think they are to investigate if a landowner complains of trespassing, but i am not sure. Thats a good question! I think the job is to be sure they are not violating any game laws. Could you imagine the run around the game wardens would be doing now out west? Many in the lockout are now allowing hunting because they see its not working, yet have lockout signs up. Should the game warden be fining all those people that are hunting without their permission slip or should they be running down the owner to see if they are not locked out? what a mess!
 
Code: 
LB do you have proof not hearsay of such?
Yes I do.

Are your counties then willing to pay your DOW for CO enforceement and biology matters?
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We have no need of either of these "services" and don't need to pay for them.

Also if your Game Dept is self run from license sales and not general funds why would you think you should get money for roads and bridges? You have that much hunting traffic that the sportsman should be using sportsman dollars for general state up keep? When road and bridge repairs already receive funding from Feds,state and county's now?
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For years GF&P had to return percentage of the license money to the counties to relieve the tax burden on the folks who raised the state's game animals. We think the GF&P owes the taxpayers in counties across the state some compensation for the feed, fences and vehicle repair bills from damage caused by the public's wildlife. Don't you?

Or would you rather dig in your pocket and foot the bill for your share of wildlife damage yourself? Maybe it could be added to your tax bill to make it fair to those of us who are getting stuck for the total bill?

Oh, and as for Gov. Kneip's reorganization of Game, Fish and Parks? That was just another reason most of us out here vote Republican.

SDhunter: Many in the lockout are now allowing hunting because they see its not working, yet have lockout signs up.
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Got any proof of that? Or is this "just hearsay"? The lockout is working great here. And if you're caught hunting on my land anyway, you'll be visiting with our sheriff.
 
Well LB, that depends on what PROOF is. Do i have pictures? Nope. Did i witness this myself? Nope. I have my best friend however, who was hunting in the Faith area, actually i think he stayed in Buffalo, anyway, he told me they were going to hunt public, but decided to go talk to the locked out landowner they usually hunted at. (hunting goats) I think i said this in the beginning of this thread that my buddy was hunting the 2nd season in that area. Anywho, when they talked to the landowner, he told them to go ahead because in the last week, he had went to town or whereever just to find out his neighbors, who he was supporting because he didnt care one way or the other, were now allowing hunting so he got pissed off and told by pal to go hunt. they did. says there were hunters aroung and lockout signs posted all over but hunters hunting them. Kelo web site had the story also, which i posted. Im GUESSING the 4 mill acres is a bunch less now.
 
Quote:
Are your counties then willing to pay your DOW for CO enforceement and biology matters?

We have no need of either of these "services" and don't need to pay for them.


I cant imagine your county has "no need for either of these "services""

You yourself my not, but i am betting some of your neighbors do. Sometimes you have to look at what is best for everyone, not just yourself. I would think you would know that now that your running for office. If you get elected, there will be times you will have to vote on things that may not be good for your ranch, but good for your neighbors.
 
Are your counties then willing to pay your DOW for CO enforceement and biology matters?

We have no need of either of these "services" and don't need to pay for them.
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I cant imagine your county has "no need for either of these "services""

You yourself my not, but i am betting some of your neighbors do. Sometimes you have to look at what is best for everyone, not just yourself. I would think you would know that now that your running for office. If you get elected, there will be times you will have to vote on things that may not be good for your ranch, but good for your neighbors.
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Oh, but I am looking out for my neighbors. Who do you think voted me into this office? I made no bones about my hopes of holding GF&P accountable for their actions and that, combined with the fact that most of my neighbors make their living off the land the same as I do, is what got me elected.

You've probably noticed that I'm rather plain-spoken, which is not necessarily a political attribute, but no one voted for me without knowing exactly where I stand on a whole range of issues.

Now tell me, why do we need game wardens for law enforcement when we have a wonderful sheriff and a very good deputy? And what is this biology business you think we need to pay for?
 
SD hunter, you claim to be a rancher and talk about how hunters are shooting up the country and driving on your grass. If you really are a rancher, wouldn't the lockout be a benefit to you? Very rarly do you ever have any credible scorces to what to state as to be fact. Your "friends" went hunting in faith and stayed in buffalo, dig out a map and look at the distance between those 2 towns. "most gamewardens dont want to live in western SD." Where did you find this out? You pulled the same B.S. last year. Calling people names and carrying on. What real concern is this to you?

What difference does it make to you if someone signs the lockout doc, yet let people that have hunted their land for many years continue to hunt. It is THEIR land. I will give you a tip. If you want to hunt private land in western sd. Make a few friends. Prove you are a decent person. VOLUNTEER to help them at brandings, Shipping or even help them fence. I almost guarantee that they will let you hunt. iF they don't IT IS STILL THEIR RIGHT. Every year people violate my, dad's and grandfathers rights by tresspassing on our land. Most are resident SD hunters (no pun intended) You hear every excuse in the world. the most common, I though i was in the government pasture. I usually ask them, How many haystacks have you seen in government pasture? No response is usually needed. We have to chain our gates, or cattle get out, and they still might cut the fence!

Sorry trying to keep this short, SD hunter. Find a new topic, your not going to chage anyones mind.
 

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