Seeking some supplement advice....

[BRG]

On Cake- why feed cake if it is so costly :???: Run only the cattle that can survive/thrive on the pasture or hay available- and then that additional cost is not there if its unprofitable :???: ...Run cattle genetics that can efficiently survive in bad years/thrive in good years....

If we were all as savvy and up to snuff in our ranching abilities as Oldtimer, this "extra supplement" conversation wouldn't even need to take place. :roll: :?

My thinking is why feed cake or any other supplement if that creates a nonprofitable situation- when you can buy hay for between $55 (grass) and $85 (both first and second cutting alfalfa and alfalfa/grass mix)... Or straw at $35-40 T...

Unless they are hard doing cows- cows can survive/thrive without being fed grain supplements ... I usually see folks run into more problems- especially during calving- because of too much protein and supplements..
Cows survived for years on just forage or hay - before the Moormans, Monsanto's, Purinas, Archer Daniels Midland, etal came into business and told us they couldn't :roll: - and still can...
Not knocking cake- or some of the other supplements...They have a good use- for making forage go further...But if their price is so high as to make their use unprofitable- then its time for plan B....Find a cheaper feed...

Some grass dry's out with quality lower than what a cow needs. So they need to supplement. You can't starve a profit out of a cow, even though some try.

My thought on supplementing are some are expensive and some aren't to bad. Alfalfa hay is probably the cheapest per ton, but then you have a tractor you need to start and run, burn fuel. Cake is a little handier, but you still need to run a vehicle for it, but you get to see the cows quite often.. The tubs are to high priced to me, nut very handy. Then their is liquid, like Loomix. But you have to have a good dealer who will make the right ration so they don't eat to much. Now you also have distillers, it is good feed to and a little cheaper than most other forms of protein, plus it has alot of energy, but you almost need to either feed it in bunks, as it can blow or get lost in the dirt. So what ever fits you best is what you need.

 

[Shortgrass]

Thanks for the replies. We have hard grass, and dry cows. I usually feed 2 lbs of 20% AN cake. The cows will do noticably better than just on grass. It is cost effective. Our Alfalfa is $225/ton here. I like to hit the pasture at the same time every day so the girls can be there, and then go pick. I have tried the every other day or every third day, but the cows don't pick as dwell as when you have a daily routine. I might enquire about the loomix. We are about 85 mile NW of La Junta. Iwill also check into tubs to compare price. I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[Faster horses]

Shortgrass, I sent you a PM...

 

[balestabber]

ha ha, i raised cattle from the 1960's thru the 1980's.learned alot from the past.i remember when forms of protein blocks, lick tanks,tubs and cake first came out.

i learned from experience more than my school'n and math.a good grinder/mixer can mix your poorer hay with a couple little bales of alfalfa
then add your medications,and it will go along ways.u can always add a little grain or molassass for taste.it's cheaper than chopp'n.careful the alfalfa don't make'em loose in more than one way.we had drugs we could add for the flies,or syscronize em,even vitimin a for calving ease come winter.just didn't have the machine to make the cubes or tubs.

i have since purchased a tee-shirt with 3 Crosses,that reminds me to not leave out the middle man.

my outhouse is getting full,good luck-----balestabber

 

[Ned Jr.]

Normally we get covered up with snow and have to start feeding hay. Last year we stayed open and like you I was looking for a way to get by on the low quality pasture grass we had left. My nutritionist gave me a few different options and I ended up going with this product from McNess. I used salt to limit consumption and aimed for .75lbs a day. I felt the cows did great and it was easy to feed. The cows didn't try to run me over when I put it out. I know it has a few ingredients that will probably raise a few eyebrows but it worked great for me. I haven't priced it yet this year but last year it was quite a bit cheaper than cake. McNess has always been fast with delivery also.

 

[flyingS]

Short grass don't you feel that maybe you have trained your cows to come to feed everyday. Therefore when you switched to ever other or every third maybe you did not give them enough time to get adjusted. If you only go every three days or so you will not have to see them waiting at the gate for you and before long you will have to put a siren on the pickup to gather them.
BRG, I believe that you can not starve a profit, but I also believe you can feed the profit out of a herd of cows. I think the line gets pushed as hard to the too much as it does not enough. How many of you actually build a feed ration and plan for the year. I would guess not very many, with lots not even knowing where to start. They feed the same amount every year because they are comfortable with it, not knowing wether they are meeting the cows requirements or over feeding her for her requirements.

 

[Triangle Bar]

Hey Shortgrass,

I've used the Crystalyx all natural 20% tubs. Purchased them from the Monte Vista COOP and yeah they're kind of expensive, but they seem to keep the cows spread out and on the graze even after they've eaten all their favorites.

 

[JML]

hi first post hope it works! that mcness ruffage mate caught my eye looked like mineral just with protein added in it, high protein 52%. looked up mcness website couldnt find anything on it. was wondering it you can get it in differant protein %, what the cost is, and general info on it. Looks like it might be good for cows on grass winter range, caked once to twice a week.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

hi first post hope it works! that mcness ruffage mate caught my eye looked like mineral just with protein added in it, high protein 52%. looked up mcness website couldnt find anything on it. was wondering it you can get it in differant protein %, what the cost is, and general info on it. Looks like it might be good for cows on grass winter range, caked once to twice a week.

Looks like the "Extra" protein is all urea. Moormans had something similar that used biuret and triuret slower release non protein nitrogen.

Vigortone has something similar but the name escapes me at the moment. I was thinking Roughage Buster but could have been Moormans.

I got my own version mixed up with Canola Meal,salt and some added canola oil.(aka Big Muddy Bossy Bloomer)

 

[Faster horses]

It's Forage Pro 22% BMR, soybean based and it's a great product.
Comes in 50# bags and has a complete mineral package.
Vigortone also has ForagePro 44 that is similar to the tag that
was shown here. However, Vigortone uses Hydrolized Feather
Meal.
Here's a link to a bulletin on it:
http://www.vigortone.com/tech_library/technical_bulletins_pdf/09-1_Use_of_HydrolyzedFeatherMeal_In_ForageProR44.pdf

Maybe you should tell them what's in your Bossy Bloomer, BMR.
That seems to have worked well for you for years.

 

[gcreekrch]

If we were closer to the farm country I would be very tempted to try BMR's canola supplement but freight is a deterrent.

30% all natural tubs have been our choice, the harder the better. We tried feeding cubes and pellets but the cows spent a lot of time waiting on the gate for the feed wagon and then following it back rather than looking for grass. The tubs get put out once a week and check the cows daily. They never associate the truck that scatters the tubs with getting fed and spend their time grazing instead of waiting for a handout.
This is softgrass country as is Soapweed's. Last year the tubs cost us 45 cents/cow/day.

 

[loomixguy]

Thanks for the replies. We have hard grass, and dry cows. I usually feed 2 lbs of 20% AN cake. The cows will do noticably better than just on grass. It is cost effective. Our Alfalfa is $225/ton here. I like to hit the pasture at the same time every day so the girls can be there, and then go pick. I have tried the every other day or every third day, but the cows don't pick as dwell as when you have a daily routine. I might enquire about the loomix. We are about 85 mile NW of La Junta. Iwill also check into tubs to compare price. I appreciate everyone's input.

Alfalfa will run about the same here, IF you can find any that hasn't already been sold to go south. All hay is in short supply here. Lots of folks should have baled their straw, and didn't. Grass hay will fetch over $100/ton now. I have been busy running rations for folks, and there are quite a few who are planning to bale corn stalks when harvest is over and feeding those bales. FH is right about your home grown forages being your cheapest source of feed, but with the hay prices being what they are, there are other alternatives out there. Don't forget about the 0% feeder finance through LOOMIX/ADM. That would apply to ADM tubs & cubes as well as the entire MoorMan's line, including Roughage Buster with biuret. If you call Johnstown, be sure to ask about it. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

 

[BRG]

Short grass don't you feel that maybe you have trained your cows to come to feed everyday. Therefore when you switched to ever other or every third maybe you did not give them enough time to get adjusted. If you only go every three days or so you will not have to see them waiting at the gate for you and before long you will have to put a siren on the pickup to gather them.
BRG, I believe that you can not starve a profit, but I also believe you can feed the profit out of a herd of cows. I think the line gets pushed as hard to the too much as it does not enough. How many of you actually build a feed ration and plan for the year. I would guess not very many, with lots not even knowing where to start. They feed the same amount every year because they are comfortable with it, not knowing wether they are meeting the cows requirements or over feeding her for her requirements.

I am not saying feed just t o feed. We are ones that don't feed much to the cows, but they meet their requirements. That is all they need. But on the same token, I have seen guys not feed enough protein, and then the cows are thin and come calving time they have problems with malnutritioned calves. So yes, you can starve the profit out of a cow. On the same note, I have seen guys feed to much over the winter and have problems with big calves at birth.

 

[flyingS]

BRG I was just saying that there is no advantage to over feeding either. I would say that problems calving are probably a small part of the problem. If your cows are over fed WHAT DOES IT COST YOU? I think a lot of people just feed and don't truly whether they are over feeding or under feeding.
Your local county extension agent should hopefully have some idea as to how your range should test and should be able to get feed test result for you. Testing your feed might be the cheapest tool you can use.
A person can not afford not to feed enough for sure. There is some pretty interesting research showing that not meeting a cows requirements during the 3rd trimester has a direct influence on their offsprings reproduction effeciency as well as carcass traits. At the same time I don't feel you can afford not to know if you are over feeding.

 

[Nicky]

So what are your feelings on biuret? I've not heard that much about it til now. Our grass is at about 4% protein now so we do feed protein supp. in the fall/winter til the cows come home. You've seen my pictures so you know that alfalfa is not an option in most of the locations. We've used loose but it's too hard to control consumption. Have used tubs the last two years, think they ate about the right about last year, not sure yet this year. Used Sweetpro last year, are trying Smartlix this year. I don't like the molasses tubs like Smartlix cause of the dirty faces...don't notice it on the blacks cows :?

Cant get to most of the areas with liquid feed either, even the tubs are a challenge.

 

[BRG]

BRG I was just saying that there is no advantage to over feeding either. I would say that problems calving are probably a small part of the problem. If your cows are over fed WHAT DOES IT COST YOU? I think a lot of people just feed and don't truly whether they are over feeding or under feeding.
Your local county extension agent should hopefully have some idea as to how your range should test and should be able to get feed test result for you. Testing your feed might be the cheapest tool you can use.
A person can not afford not to feed enough for sure. There is some pretty interesting research showing that not meeting a cows requirements during the 3rd trimester has a direct influence on their offsprings reproduction effeciency as well as carcass traits. At the same time I don't feel you can afford not to know if you are over feeding.

I know what you mean about over feeding. I have a customer that actually let their cows have self feeders of ground hay, put hay rings out and then run a feed wagon with silage out as well. Talk about over feeding.

We actually ran feed tests on all our feed this year. Most of our hay will be for the calves and fed with a mixer wagon, but the spring calving cows will have hay rolled on the ground. While the May/June calvers graze all winter. These are the cows where we have used Loomix on in the past. But the last 2 years we feed them a few lbs of alfalfa every other day when the snow gets pretty deep. It seems to work and is a bit cheaper.

 

[BRG]

The guy we buy all of our distillers through feeds his cow as cheap as anyone. He feeds them ground straw and ground corn stalks for the ruffage and then mixes corn syrup with it. I don't remember the exact costs, but he said it was something like $.65/day/cow last winter. Problem with the syrup is it will freeze, so you need a way to handle it when it gets cold.

 

[Doug Thorson]

One product that hasn't been mentioned is Mix 30. Initial cost is high because unless you have a dealer close you basically have to buy your own setup to handle tanker loads. I have only one year of personal expierience with it however the reason I started it was a situation much like yours. During our drougth a neighbor of mine rented 3 sections of unused grass 25-30 miles from his place. General rule around here is 2 acres per month, but this pasture hadn't been used for 2 years and the owner was willing to let him use it pretty hard. Terms were Dec through May. He took 340 pregnant cows there and bought 2 semi loads of hay and a mix 30 setup. Every week he would trucked 5000 lbs over there and dump it out in open top tanks.(2.1# per day) I didn't see the cows in April when he was calving but around the 20th of May we went over and branded so they would be healed up in time to haul June 1. We branded 332 head of calves and he hadn't bought any more hay than them 2 loads. By my figures he got 4 1/2 months out of a pasture that should have only lasted a little over 3 and still had a great calving %. Was he lucky or was it good management? I can't say for sure but Mix 30 delivered is about $215 per ton here which is cheaper than anything else, but I figure on 2# per day.

a link if you want to check it out yourself

http://www.mix30.com/index.html

 

[bgc]

Has anyone on here actually had their hay tested to see how they come out protein wise? That simple test can save you thousands of dollars in time and feed. I used to feed the liquid and then went to hand feeding my cows every day to save money, but it costs more in time. I was feeding almost 500 head every day by hand. I then decided to check my protein in my hay and when I did the ration analysis I found out that as long as I am feeding good quality hay then there is no reason for me to feed any grain. This right away saved time and money. I still feed hay everyday, and when it gets really cold or nasty I feed about 1lb a day of wheat midds and 1 lb of corn gluten. This works really well and the cattle love it. The only negative I have noticed is that my conception rate is down about .5%. I make sure that I have a goood quality mineral out at all times as well.

 

[loomixguy]

So what are your feelings on biuret? I've not heard that much about it til now. Our grass is at about 4% protein now so we do feed protein supp. in the fall/winter til the cows come home. You've seen my pictures so you know that alfalfa is not an option in most of the locations. We've used loose but it's too hard to control consumption. Have used tubs the last two years, think they ate about the right about last year, not sure yet this year. Used Sweetpro last year, are trying Smartlix this year. I don't like the molasses tubs like Smartlix cause of the dirty faces...don't notice it on the blacks cows :?

Cant get to most of the areas with liquid feed either, even the tubs are a challenge.

Biuret has been tested over time and is a proven product that is in certain offerings of the MoorMan's line, particularly in Roughage Buster. RB ain't cheap, but you get what you pay for. If the tag says 2 oz/head/day, you can pretty much take that to the bank. All situations are different, and what works in some areas may not work in all. Fords & Chevy's.....

I have had Spike Mitchek deliver semi loads of LOOMIX to me in emergency situations. They also haul Mix 30. The drivers I spoke to HATE Mix 30 for the reason that if it gets too cold, it freezes in the tanker, also freezing up their hoses, valves & couplings, making it almost impossible to unload. If Mix 30 is half the price of LOOMIX, but they eat 2 to 3 times the amount of Mix 30 that they would LOOMIX, what exactly have you saved? Not to mention the expense of owning your own tanks or renting them. If you move the cows, those tanks are a bear to move, and I have my doubts that the dealer will move them for you at no charge. I have also heard of Mix 30 and QLF dealers charging customers a "stop charge" EVERY time they service a tank. All the "hidden" charges begin to add up.