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Sir Loin

That's an old joke, SSAP, where have you been?

It is hilarous tho....

and the hamburger gaffe made me laugh out loud too......


hey I did go for groceries about 3 weeks ago :wink: But other than that I guess I don't get out much :-)

It is a gooder ~ sure does sound like something a man would do :gag: :pretty: :help:
 
Sir Loin said:
Trigger tripping time.

TexasBred

Dear Bred,

You have continually shot your mouth off about corn gluten form Ethanol being ok to feed to commercial and dairy herds and blamed management of those herds for causing the death of their own cattle.
So I ask you, show me were it says and by whom, it says it is OK to feed corn gluten from Ethanol to commercial and dairy herds and how much should me feed. URL please.
Be sure not to include those sources who are talking about a feedlot operations.
Now put up or shut up.
Thank Q in advance
SL




Utilizing the Growing Supply of Distillers Grains
Robert M. Kaiser
University of Wisconsin-Extension


Nutritional Aspects - Dairy Diets
DDS, CDS, distillers dried grains (DDG), DDGS and DWGS have been successfully utilized in
dairy rations for over a century. A great deal of research comparing these products to other
protein and energy feeds has been conducted over the past 50 years with distillers byproducts
proving their value. Meta-analyses of literature data (Kaiser et al., 2005 - reviewed 21 trials with
53 control vs. distillers grains comparisons from 1980 to 2005; Kalscheur, 2005 - reviewed 24
studies with 98 treatment comparisons from 1982 to 2005) confirm lactation performance
responses to inclusion of distillers grains in the diets of lactating cows. DDGS has become a
common component of commercial dairy protein supplements, often comprising 25-35 percent
of the blend on a dry matter basis (DM basis) depending upon the price of other competing
ingredients. A common comparison by dairy nutritionists is that one pound of DDGS is roughly
equivalent to 0.6 pounds of shelled corn and 0.4 pounds of soybean meal.

http://www.das.psu.edu/research-extension/dairy/nutrition/pdf/shaver-utilizing-distillers.pdf/?searchterm=corn%20gluten%20dairy
 
hypocritexposer

Seriously now! Thank you for stepping forward I do appreciate it..
And you couldn't have picked a better source to start this discussion.

I am a little busy with personal stuff right now, so if I am slow in responding, please excuse me.

I have several comments about your source I would like to make, but for now I would like to leave you with this to see if we can reach an agreement.

As your source is not dated, what time period in the evolution of Ethanol as a fuel do you think this was written?
IMO, at or near the beginning.
Do you agree?

Thanks again
SL
 
Sir Loin said:
hypocritexposer

Seriously now! Thank you for stepping forward I do appreciate it..
And you couldn't have picked a better source to start this discussion.

I am a little busy with personal stuff right now, so if I am slow in responding, please excuse me.

I have several comments about your source I would like to make, but for now I would like to leave you with this to see if we can reach an agreement.

As your source is not dated, what time period in the evolution of Ethanol as a fuel do you think this was written?
IMO, at or near the beginning.
Do you agree?

Thanks again
SL

The latest date in the references is 2005 so.........
 
Whitewing

Re:
The latest date in the references is 2005 so......…
All those studies "Robert M. Kaiser University of Wisconsin-Extension" referenced/sited were prior to 2005 when it was perfectly safe to feed the mash from alcohol production as no sulfur was added to extract the alcohol.
He makes no mention of those studies where sulfur was added prior to 2005 and the sulfur levels were high.

I have no problem with what he has written, except for the fact that he is only talking about distillers grains that contain no sulfur and makes no mention of the fact that there are toxic distillers grains out there that contain sulfur.

But hey, he's in the corn belt so I would expect him to avoid any and all negatives.
All case studies that I have read after 2005 carry a warning about feeding Ethanol mash due to the high level of sulfur.
Do you know of a case study after 2005 that does not warn of the high level of sulfur?
SL
 
I merely answered your question as best I could.

As your source is not dated, what time period in the evolution of Ethanol as a fuel do you think this was written?

As the latest reference date was 2005, I suspect Hypo's source was written at some point thereafter. But thanks for the lengthy OT-like response anyway. :lol:
 
Sulfur content is usually not a concern; however, there have been reports of high levels of sulfur (as much as 1%) in DGS from some plants. Recent surveys (Schingoethe et al., 2008) indicate that an average of 0.5% to 0.6% sulfur in DGS may be more the norm than the NRC report value of 0.44% listed in Table 1. Higher sulfur may be related to amounts of acid used in pH control and cleaning operations that get added to the DGS. In some cases, high sulfur content of the water used may also be a contributor.

http://www.card.iastate.edu/books/distillers_grains/pdfs/chapter3.pdf
 
From your source where Ethanol by-products are discussed vs. other distillers grain which are safe to feed.

Some ethanol plants offer products termed "modified distillers grains"; however, there are currently no industry guidelines as to what "modified" means. In some cases the distillers grains are partially dried to, for example, 50% dry matter. Sometimes greater or lesser amounts of solubles are added to the distillers grains, or there may be other modifications. These can be very good products to incorporate into dairy cattle diets. However, it is important that the supplier provide accurate composition analysis data, and that the product be consistent from batch to batch.
Snip
Concerns and Potential Problems
with Distillers Grains in Dairy Production
There are several items often cited by dairy producers and nutrition consultants that should be mentioned here (see chapter 10 for greater detail on these issues).
Inconsistency (variability) of product within plants and between plants is frequently mentioned.
Snip
High phosphorus or sulfur content in the DGS usually comes through the solubles. A high phosphorus concentration in DGS usually indicates that more-than-normal amounts of solubles were blended with the distillers grains. Sulfur-containing compounds are often used for controlling pH and cleaning equipment during various stages in the ethanol plant operation, and these compounds often end up in the solubles. While high amounts of sulfur in DGS are not usually a problem, if one is feeding more than 30% DGS that may contain higher-than-normal amounts of sulfur, and this is coupled with high sulfur water or other feeds that are also high in sulfur, the diets may approach the recommended dietary maximum of 0.4% sulfur in total ration dry matter (NRC, 2001).
Again the case study sighted is from 2001 and was "cherry picked" to highlight the good points of feeding distillers grain.
But this time they do mention, and I quote, the " Concerns and Potential Problems " when speaking of "Ethanol" by products.

And they also mentioned the importance of the "supplier provide accurate composition analysis data, and that the product be consistent from batch to batch " which is not being done even today.

Now read these and remember these are about "ETHANOL" et al by-products which use sulfur to extract alcohol, not other distiller grains that do not use sulfur to extract alcohol.
Check the mineral content to avoid mineral imbalances due to high levels of phosphorus, potassium and sulfur. Of these, possibly the most serious problem is with sulfur, which routinely reaches 0.5 to 0.6 percent and sometimes higher, particularly in the wet product. This may limit the amount which can be used to about 0.5 percent of body weight (dry matter basis). Sulfur content is a particularly worrisome problem in Tennessee because the Tennessee Forage Mineral Survey has shown that sulfur levels typically run at levels high enough to cause problems with cow-calf and forage-based stocker operations. These problems include rough hair coats, depressed growth rate, compromised immune systems (they get sick more easily) and decreased breeding efficiency.
Source: http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/938/corn-gluten-feed-for-beef-cattle


Considerations for Use
A few cautions about feeding CGF. First, the sulfur (S) concentration of CGF is high relative to the animal's requirement. Sulfur dioxide is added during the wet milling process to aid in the extraction of starch. The added S ends up in the steep liquor which is one of the components of CGF. The sulfur concentration in CGF averages around 0.5% (DM basis), with a range of 0.33 to 0.73%. The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S. The upper safe limit is 0.4% total dietary S (NRC, 2005). Feeding large amounts of CGF with a high S concentration can lead to S toxicity, resulting in reduced feed intake and possibly death. A specific disorder associated with excess S is polioencephalomalacia (PEM or commonly referred to as "brainers"; Niles et al., 2000). This disorder affects the nervous system resulting in blindness, incoordination, and seizures (Gould, 1998). Excess S in the diet can also increase the risk of a copper deficiency. Copper is an essential trace mineral important for growth, immunity, and other metabolic functions (NRC, 2005). The potential risk of high S in the total diet could limit the amount of CGF than can be used in a feeding program.
Source: http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/1449/feeding-corn-gluten-to-beef-cattlesup1-sup

My point is this:
There has been for many many years distillers grains out there that have been safe for human as well as animal consumption.
I have eaten it and feed it to my livestock and never had a problem with it, until "now".
And I define "now" as the beginning of the use of sulfur to increase productivity in an attempt to produce a ( P ) profit.

If you are old enough to remember the days when alcohol was the only antifreeze for your vehicle ( pre early 60s ), the distillers grain was feed to livestock by the tons and there was never a problem nor was there any warning associated with feeding it.
So you see, I am not anti distillers grain, just anti- distillers grain with ( S ) sulfur added that is delivered without an analysis sheet.
And I am against custom mixed feeds being sold in bulk or bag that does not contain the sulfur content on the bill of laden or tag on the bag.
SL
 
hypocritexposer said:
Sulfur content is usually not a concern; however, there have been reports of high levels of sulfur (as much as 1%) in DGS from some plants. Recent surveys (Schingoethe et al., 2008) indicate that an average of 0.5% to 0.6% sulfur in DGS may be more the norm than the NRC report value of 0.44% listed in Table 1. Higher sulfur may be related to amounts of acid used in pH control and cleaning operations that get added to the DGS. In some cases, high sulfur content of the water used may also be a contributor.

http://www.card.iastate.edu/books/distillers_grains/pdfs/chapter3.pdf


(Schingoethe et al., 2008)


Sir Loin, it appears you cherry picked the work from 2001 and skipped right over the more recent survey
 
Sir Loin most people feeding CGF or DDG understand that it is NOT a complete feed and was never intended as such and they do not feed it as such. It is one component in a mix of ngredeints. Regardless of the sulfur content or the calcium:phosphorus imbalance these can both be adjusted to proper levels by using the ingredients in the proper proportions to the total mix and/or adding those components such as calcium to the mix which would bring the ca:ph ration to the desired level.
Cattle need a certain amount of sulfur in the diet. Even in DDGs or CGF assuming it has a very high sulfur level of 1% restricting these ingredients to no more than 20-25% of the ration lowers the sulfur level down to a BENEFICIAL level in the overall mix.
It's people like yourself that go out and feed these products incorrectly that give it a bad name. If you don't know how at least have the intelligence to ASK the people that made it to take you by the hand and lead you along until you understand how to use it. It isn't their fault so don't blame them. You need to get away from buying and feeding "ingredients" and buy you a complete feed from your local feed store. It won't have a sulfur guarantee on it either but you can bet your a$$ it won't make your calves go blind and you won't have anything to complain about either.

ONe Question: Why were YOU eating DDG and how much did you put into your diet each day?
 
OK, lets look for some common ground we agree on.

I don't think the nutritional value of feeding distillers grain is what is in question here. Correct?

What is in question here is the inherent dangers of feeding SOME distillers grain.
Specifically distillers grain from the distillation of Ethanol. Correct?


Now to recap your sources:
Cherry picked.
however, there have been reports of high levels of sulfur
Concerns and Potential Problems
Snip
that may contain higher-than-normal amounts of sulfur,
Snip
may approach the recommended dietary maximum of 0.4% sulfur in total ration dry matter (NRC, 2001).
Snip
"supplier provide accurate composition analysis data, and that the product be consistent from batch to batch
Using your own sources, do you agree or disagree that there is an inherent danger in feeding Ethanol distillers grain?

And here is my last source I will be quoting for comparison.
Feeding Corn Gluten to Beef Cattle1
Considerations for Use
A few cautions about feeding CGF. First, the sulfur (S) concentration of CGF is high relative to the animal's requirement.


The sulfur concentration in CGF averages around 0.5% (DM basis), with a range of 0.33 to 0.73%.

The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S.


The upper safe limit is 0.4% total dietary S (NRC, 2005).

Feeding large amounts of CGF with a high S concentration can lead to S toxicity, resulting in reduced feed intake and possibly death.

A specific disorder associated with excess S is polioencephalomalacia (PEM or commonly referred to as "brainers"; Niles et al., 2000).
This disorder affects the nervous system resulting in blindness, incoordination, and seizures (Gould, 1998).
Excess S in the diet can also increase the risk of a copper deficiency.
Copper is an essential trace mineral important for growth, immunity, and other metabolic functions (NRC, 2005).
The potential risk of high S in the total diet could limit the amount of CGF than can be used in a feeding program.
Source:http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/1449/feeding-corn-gluten-to-beef-cattlesup1-sup

My source:
The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S.
The upper safe limit is 0.4% total dietary S.
The sulfur concentration in CGF averages around 0.5% (DM basis), with a range of 0.33 to 0.73%.

Now couple that with your " supplier provide accurate composition analysis data, and that the product be consistent from batch to batch" which they do not do,
do you now agree or disagree there is an inherent danger in feeding Ethanol distillers grain?
SL
 
My source:
The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S.
The upper safe limit is 0.4% total dietary S.
The sulfur concentration in CGF averages around 0.5% (DM basis), with a range of 0.33 to 0.73%.
Now couple that with your " supplier provide accurate composition analysis data, and that the product be consistent from batch to batch" which they do not do,
do you now agree or disagree there is an inherent danger in feeding Ethanol distillers grain?
SL

Let's assume everything you posted here is correct. Even if it's .73% consistently all you have to do is make sure that enough hay is fed to the catle to dilute this amount down to .4% or lower. Not hard at all and what everyone should do regardless of whatever grain or grain by-product they may be feeding.Any nutritionist knows that almost no ingredient is included in a ration in excess of 20-25% of the entire mix except corn and sometimes soybean hulls.... AND NO THERE IS NO DANGER FEEDING ETHANOL BY PRODUCTS IF YOU HAVE ONE LICK OF COMMON SENSE.
 
TB,
Re"
Let's assume everything you posted here is correct. Even if it's .73% consistently all you have to do is make sure that enough hay is fed to the catle to dilute this amount down to .4% or lower.
OK!
The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S.
So lets say .15 %, just in case there is some S in their water.
Now just how many pounds would you add to 1,000 lbs of hay?
SL
 
Sir Loin said:
TB,
Re"
Let's assume everything you posted here is correct. Even if it's .73% consistently all you have to do is make sure that enough hay is fed to the catle to dilute this amount down to .4% or lower.
OK!
The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S.
So lets say .15 %, just in case there is some S in their water.
Now just how many pounds would you add to 1,000 lbs of hay?
SL
BUT per your post, the upper safe limit is .4%. Go test your water and hay and get back to me along with consumption rates.
 

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