Socialism?

[rkaiser]

That's good SH. Now you are getting mad again, and showing your true colors.

I do not know the American situation as well as you SH. But somehow Cargill and Tyson have moved from 0 % of Canada's packing capacity to 85% in less than 30 years. That may have been a conspiracy theory 30 years ago....... Would you say?

I don't disagree that there is no room for the American Dream gopher trapper, I'm living it. I see, and you could too (if you pulled the puppet string from your eyes) the trends of our so called capitalist society. Laws, and you darn well show us those laws, slant toward mutinational companies every day. That is no conspiracy theory SH. That is truth. So called free enterprise puppets like yourself who have really very little to do with the industry like to prove their knowledge and run down anyone who doesn't see their way.

 

[Econ101]

1. Decreased supplies in relation to demand is a driver behind higher cattle prices as is value added products. The flat iron steak used to sell for the price of ground round.

Funny how you can argue that the value of the Atkins diet was passed on to the producer then question whether the value of checkoff products are passed on to the producer.

BUSTED AGAIN!

If you want to try to argue that this value is not passed on to the producer, then you also have to argue that any other value that is added is not passed on to the producer. Amazingly, you cannot defend that in light of the fact that live cattle prices track with boxed beef prices and the fact that packer profit margins remain in a consistant range of profit and losses.

THE OBVIOUS IS SIMPLY TOO OBVIOUS FOR A CONSPIRACY THEORIST SUCH AS YOURSELF, RM.


2. Packer profits are figured before reinvestments are made.


NEXT!


~SH~

SH, you keep bringing up things that have little or no relevance. Your flat iron steak is an example of that. How much more value does the flat iron steak bring to the value of the beef carcass and why do you want to give credit to packers for this "innovation" that Jim James and every good butcher in America knew about over 25 years ago? Do we continually have to make up stuff to show how good these packers are? Add it up, the flat iron does not make that much of a difference. Imported Australian beef brings the producer's price down much more than the flat iron brings it up. (I haven't done the actual numbers on that but we can't even get Agman to give us his answer to whom the benefit goes to with the value he mentioned in a previous post let alone some calculated value to benefit).

BSE problems have decreased value to producers and that was universally agreed to be the result of MBM (I am not a BSE tester!) which the Packers used to "increase efficiency" by your own words.

The arguments you bring up in the economic analysis are based on false assumptions. They are elementery mistakes that you dodge from everytime you are confronted. "Prove it!" is your answer when someone pins you on a logical assertion. "The burden of proof is on the accuser!"

The fact is that with captive supplies, all of the regular price signals the market can produce can and Pickett proved to a jury, are manipulated downwards. This is due to the differences is elasticity of the supply curve and the demand curve within certain time periods and the market power that the big guys wield. Packer influence far outweighs the little fish of flat iron steak argument you bring up to producers here and in Canada.

 

[Anonymous]

RK: "So called free enterprise puppets like yourself who have really very little to do with the industry like to prove their knowledge and run down anyone who doesn't see their way."

I have far more understanding of this entire industry than you ever will. I have participated in and continue to be involved in every facet of this industry. You need to portray otherwise because your worthless, conspiracy driven, unsupported packer blaming allegations simply cannot carry you alone.

IS TYSON AND EXCEL IN COMPETITION WITH EACHOTHER???

Yes or no?


How did Tyson and Excel replace the packers before them? Buy paying more for cattle or less?

Two simple questions I bet you cannot answer.


~SH~

 

[rkaiser]

SH

IS TYSON AND EXCEL IN COMPETITION WITH EACHOTHER???

Not always packer lover. When is the last time you put up a pen of cattle and invited bids SH?

SH

How did Tyson and Excel replace the packers before them? Buy paying more for cattle or less?

In Canada it was huge government incentive, and the switch from crow rate subsidies to more and more cattle operations.

Paid more when they needed to of course. That is the way anyone buys their way into business, with goals to someday control 85% of the industry. Open your eyes gopher man. I don't know where you take your classes, must be funded by Cargill and Tyson.

 

[Anonymous]

Elementary: "SH, you keep bringing up things that have little or no relevance."

Atta boy, accuse others of your exact MO!

Elementary: "Your flat iron steak is an example of that. How much more value does the flat iron steak bring to the value of the beef carcass and why do you want to give credit to packers for this "innovation" that Jim James and every good butcher in America knew about over 25 years ago?"

The flat iron steak is one example of adding value to the carcass that is passed on to the producer. 10 minute microwavable products is another. Cryovac aging is another.

Nowhere did I give packers credit for this innovation. Yet another lie from you. The beef checkoff funded research on seperation of meat muscles led to it's discovery or rediscovery and it's promotion and popularity.

I never said the flat iron steak was the salvation of this industry, I simply stated that it is one more way to add value to the carcass to increase the profitability of the producer.

Elementary: "Do we continually have to make up stuff to show how good these packers are?"

You won't back that allegation up any more than you have ever backed any allegation up. More cheap talk!

Elementary: "Add it up, the flat iron does not make that much of a difference."

Every value added product adds up to more profitability for producers.

Elementary: "Imported Australian beef brings the producer's price down much more than the flat iron brings it up."

That is a bold faced lie!

Adding value to our surplus 50/50 trim by blending cheap imported lean trimmings to it is a value added situation for U.S. producers.

PORTRAYED YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE AGAIN!

Take this one item and defend it. Bring your proof. Show everyone here that you can bring more to the table than cheap talk. You won't because you can't. You're totally empty to defend your position.

Elementary: "(I haven't done the actual numbers on that......."

That's obvious!

Elementary: "The arguments you bring up in the economic analysis are based on false assumptions. They are elementery mistakes that you dodge from everytime you are confronted. "Prove it!" is your answer when someone pins you on a logical assertion. "The burden of proof is on the accuser!""

More cheap talk to defend the factually defenseless!

DENY, DISCREDIT, DIVERT, DECEIVE!

You've never brought anything to the table to support your positionn other than "THEORY", "OPINION", "CONJECTURE" and "SUPPOSITION".

You are a complete phony!

Elementary: "The fact is that with captive supplies, all of the regular price signals the market can produce can and Pickett proved to a jury, are manipulated downwards."

More unsubstantiated cheap talk.


Meanwhile, as Elementary the ignorant continues to spew his baseless unsupported allegations of market power and market manipulation, live cattle prices continue to track with boxed beef price despite him.

What a complete phony!



~SH~

 

[Anonymous]

Go cry in your beer randy. Tell everyone how bad you have it. That'll lead to your success. YOU GO MAN!


~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Elementary: "SH, you keep bringing up things that have little or no relevance."

Atta boy, accuse others of your exact MO!

Elementary: "Your flat iron steak is an example of that. How much more value does the flat iron steak bring to the value of the beef carcass and why do you want to give credit to packers for this "innovation" that Jim James and every good butcher in America knew about over 25 years ago?"

The flat iron steak is one example of adding value to the carcass that is passed on to the producer. 10 minute microwavable products is another. Cryovac aging is another.

Nowhere did I give packers credit for this innovation. Yet another lie from you. The beef checkoff funded research on seperation of meat muscles led to it's discovery or rediscovery and it's promotion and popularity.

I never said the flat iron steak was the salvation of this industry, I simply stated that it is one more way to add value to the carcass to increase the profitability of the producer.

Elementary: "Do we continually have to make up stuff to show how good these packers are?"

You won't back that allegation up any more than you have ever backed any allegation up. More cheap talk!

Elementary: "Add it up, the flat iron does not make that much of a difference."

Every value added product adds up to more profitability for producers.

Elementary: "Imported Australian beef brings the producer's price down much more than the flat iron brings it up."

That is a bold faced lie!

Adding value to our surplus 50/50 trim by blending cheap imported lean trimmings to it is a value added situation for U.S. producers.

PORTRAYED YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE AGAIN!

Take this one item and defend it. Bring your proof. Show everyone here that you can bring more to the table than cheap talk. You won't because you can't. You're totally empty to defend your position.

Elementary: "(I haven't done the actual numbers on that......."

That's obvious!

Elementary: "The arguments you bring up in the economic analysis are based on false assumptions. They are elementery mistakes that you dodge from everytime you are confronted. "Prove it!" is your answer when someone pins you on a logical assertion. "The burden of proof is on the accuser!""

More cheap talk to defend the factually defenseless!

DENY, DISCREDIT, DIVERT, DECEIVE!

You've never brought anything to the table to support your positionn other than "THEORY", "OPINION", "CONJECTURE" and "SUPPOSITION".

You are a complete phony!

Elementary: "The fact is that with captive supplies, all of the regular price signals the market can produce can and Pickett proved to a jury, are manipulated downwards."

More unsubstantiated cheap talk.


Meanwhile, as Elementary the ignorant continues to spew his baseless unsupported allegations of market power and market manipulation, live cattle prices continue to track with boxed beef price despite him.

What a complete phony!



~SH~

Okay, SH, How much value did the flat iron cut out bring to a producer?

Forget the fact that the "flat iron" was not an invention of the Packers, it was the invention of God. Packers just put a french name to it. Jim James was a little more humble than the packer backers.

Did the flat iron bring 1 cent per lb. more?

The cryovac you bring up is just another excuse of reducing quality. You are probably aware that dry aging (which is my preferred way to a better product) does not benefit the lower choice or select near as much as high choice and prime. Granted, not all of us need to buy high choice or prime. Some would rather eat chicken. The cryovac argument is just a substitute for dry aging and a poor one at that, if you ask this consumer. There are reasons beef have lost market share to the other proteins and some of those reasons are found in the "efficiency" that you proclaim as positive.

When I eat a piece of meat, I want value in that meat, whether it is a chuck roast, a brisket, a sirloin, or any of the last part that goes over the fence. I have noticed a reduced ability of the big packers to be able to mass produce this value in the last few years and it is really coincidental that it follows on the claims of cattle producers like Pickett that their higher grading meat was discriminated against in the market. Robert Mac has shown that the marketing ability of Tyson and Swift is much better in the substitutes to beef that they own. Numbers prove it. The cattle industry, no wait, the meats industry, has been taken on a ride and it has been going downhill for producers and in the long run, for consumers.

It is time for everyone to wake up to that fact.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok Elementary, where is your proof that Australian beef brings the producer's price down much more than the flat iron brings it up.

Bring it!

What seems to be the holdup?

Elementary: "The cryovac you bring up is just another excuse of reducing quality."

Yet another bold faced lie!

Elementary: "The cryovac argument is just a substitute for dry aging and a poor one at that, if you ask this consumer."

Cryovac aging does not reduce quality.

Now arrogant Elementry economics thinks he knows more than the best meat scientists in the nation. More testimony to your endless arrogance and ignorance.

Elementary: "There are reasons beef have lost market share to the other proteins and some of those reasons are found in the "efficiency" that you proclaim as positive."

You are absolutely amazing. With every post you make you prove how little you know about this industry. I would have thought that the humiliation of being continually wrong would have ushered you to the door a long time ago but your extreme arrogance continues to carry you on.

Beef's lost market share to poultry happened before these value added efforts. Cryovac aging has replaced dry aging due to shrink and cooler space needed to dry age carcasses. How much space do you suppose the large packers would need to dry age beef when that beef can be wet aged in the box after it's delivered to the retailer?

If you don't think the shrink associated with dry aging affects profitability, check out the price of beef jerky, maybe it will come to you.

Your ignorance of this industry is absolutely endless.

Elementary: "You are probably aware that dry aging (which is my preferred way to a better product) does not benefit the lower choice or select near as much as high choice and prime. "

I'll take that as an admission that "dry aging" is not as good as cryovac aging since all beef benefits from "wet aging".

You are a complete phony!



~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Ok Elementary, where is your proof that Australian beef brings the producer's price down much more than the flat iron brings it up.

Bring it!

What seems to be the holdup?

Elementary: "The cryovac you bring up is just another excuse of reducing quality."

Yet another bold faced lie!

Elementary: "The cryovac argument is just a substitute for dry aging and a poor one at that, if you ask this consumer."

Cryovac aging does not reduce quality.

Now arrogant Elementry economics thinks he knows more than the best meat scientists in the nation. More testimony to your endless arrogance and ignorance.

Elementary: "There are reasons beef have lost market share to the other proteins and some of those reasons are found in the "efficiency" that you proclaim as positive."

You are absolutely amazing. With every post you make you prove how little you know about this industry. I would have thought that the humiliation of being continually wrong would have ushered you to the door a long time ago but your extreme arrogance continues to carry you on.

Beef's lost market share to poultry happened before these value added efforts. Cryovac aging has replaced dry aging due to shrink and cooler space needed to dry age carcasses. How much space do you suppose the large packers would need to dry age beef when that beef can be wet aged in the box after it's delivered to the retailer?

If you don't think the shrink associated with dry aging affects profitability, check out the price of beef jerky, maybe it will come to you.

Your ignorance of this industry is absolutely endless.

Elementary: "You are probably aware that dry aging (which is my preferred way to a better product) does not benefit the lower choice or select near as much as high choice and prime. "

I'll take that as an admission that "dry aging" is not as good as cryovac aging since all beef benefits from "wet aging".

You are a complete phony!



~SH~

You are the one who brings up the flat iron all the time. Sometimes I wonder about you. I don't have to prove anything to you. It has been proven, and you have a little reminder on the bottom of all my messages, that no one can prove anything to you. You have to prove it to yourself. So why try? You will just divert to name calling or make up some little point that is hardly worth proving and then claim victory.

How much does the average flat iron steaks from a carcass weigh, SH, since you claim to know so much about it. Make your call to Tyson friend and then do a little math and shut up.

If you are claiming that cryovac select is better than high choice dry aged, you need to get out of the hawking business on this forum. Those decisions are part of the reason, in my opinion, that beef has declined in consumption. I know it has in my family.

On the Australian imports, have you made your call to Agman on your supposition that they have a net benefit to domestic producers, or do you still wish to keep a discussion you can not win in the diverticuli where most of your arguments reside? Do you know what is in the diverticuli? Jim James did and if you ever come south and let me take you to a soul food resturaunt, I will even buy you a meal so you too can eat your words. Bring a few judges from the 11th circuit, I will treat them too.

 

[Anonymous]

Elementary: "I don't have to prove anything to you."

Because you can't! You have opinions and theories, not facts.

Elementary: "How much does the average flat iron steaks from a carcass weigh, SH, since you claim to know so much about it. Make your call to Tyson friend and then do a little math and shut up."

The size and weight of the flat iron steak is another "red herring" to divert the fact that the flat iron steak adds more value to the carcass even if it's contribution is not a large one. This value is passed on to the producer. The value of the flat iron steak is now the value of most middlemeats when it used to be the value of ground chuck and round.

Elementary: "If you are claiming that cryovac select is better than high choice dry aged, you need to get out of the hawking business on this forum."

Make it up as you go again! I never said crovac select is better than high choice dry aged. "IF" makes the implication which is typical of your deceptive slithering ways. No wonder you and Sandman see eye to eye.

I said there is very little quality difference between choice and select when aged in cryovac and that is a fact.


Imported Australian and New Zealand lean trimmings benefit U.S. producers. That is a fact! You don't know enough about this industry to understand it. When we added value to the chuck and round, this created a shortage of lean trimmings to blend with our surplus 50/50 trim. The U.S. is better off to import cheap lean trimmings from Australia and New Zealand and add value to the products we used to grind.

It's too bad you don't have to pay for this free education you are getting.


~SH~

 

[Sandhusker]

How am I better off having Tyson buy Aussie lean to make burger instead of using my roasts? Wouldn't grinding roasts reduce the supply and thus increase the value?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Econ it's the little thing that help. When we were exporting to Korea there was $13 more value in leaving the foot on the shank and in NA that was just tankage. Their is a market for everything but the beller and many small plants have trouble capturing that extra value.

 

[Jason]

How am I better off having Tyson buy Aussie lean to make burger instead of using my roasts? Wouldn't grinding roasts reduce the supply and thus increase the value?

How can it increase value beyond what consumers will pay?

Roasts sell for $4/lb roughly.... can you get consumers to buy that same roast ground up for $4/lb?

 

[Sandhusker]

How am I better off having Tyson buy Aussie lean to make burger instead of using my roasts? Wouldn't grinding roasts reduce the supply and thus increase the value?

How can it increase value beyond what consumers will pay?

Roasts sell for $4/lb roughly.... can you get consumers to buy that same roast ground up for $4/lb?

I can get chuck roast at our local grocery store today for $2.29/lb.

 

[Econ101]

Econ it's the little thing that help. When we were exporting to Korea there was $13 more value in leaving the foot on the shank and in NA that was just tankage. Their is a market for everything but the beller and many small plants have trouble capturing that extra value.

BMR, You are right about that one. I heard from a fellow who worked for Tyson that the highest dollar value of meat on a chickent was the foot. They sold them to China. Now, my mom has cooked chicken feet before but I avoided eating them. Reminded me of an unskinned snake with no meat on a bone. I know what they walked on and they weren't wearing any shoes.

There has to be a way that little packing plants can get together and sell some of those things. The asians are really into that stuff for some reason.

 

[Jason]

Do you know if that chuck roast is one left over after the flat iron, ranch cut and petite tender have been removed?

Is it that price everyday? Is that a representitave price in say Chicago or New York or L.A>?

Would that entire chuck sell for ground at more than $2.29 (remember there is no bone in grind)?

Most important did you buy a roast for supper?

 

[Econ101]

Do you know if that chuck roast is one left over after the flat iron, ranch cut and petite tender have been removed?

Is it that price everyday? Is that a representitave price in say Chicago or New York or L.A>?

Would that entire chuck sell for ground at more than $2.29 (remember there is no bone in grind)?

Most important did you buy a roast for supper?

Jason, you have so many questions. Have you done any reading?

 

[Anonymous]

Elementary: "Jason, you have so many questions. Have you done any reading?"

Listen to you. The king of beef industry ignorance. Jason has forgot more about this industry than you'll ever know.

Don't assume Jason doesn't already know the answers to the questions he's asking. He's not like you.

Reading doesn't lead to an education unless you are reading factual information. You obviously don't.

Sandman: "I can get chuck roast at our local grocery store today for $2.29/lb."

Sandman: "Wouldn't grinding roasts reduce the supply and thus increase the value?"

I hope you honestly want to know the correct answer to that question Sandman rather than trying to justify what you want to see through your import goggles.

I'll bet the $2.29 is a featured price to move product right?

Featured prices are not normal prices.

In comparison, I have seen 70/30 ground beef for sale at $.99 per pound.

Now if we can get imported lean trimmings from Australia and New Zealand for less than the normal price of chucks and rounds, wouldn't it make sense to grind imported trimmings and blend them with our 50/50 trim and leave the chucks and rounds sell for a higher price?

Really think about this Sandman. I sincerely hope you actually learn something here.



~SH~

 

[S.S.A.P.]

Econ it's the little thing that help. When we were exporting to Korea there was $13 more value in leaving the foot on the shank and in NA that was just tankage. Their is a market for everything but the beller and many small plants have trouble capturing that extra value.

BMR, You are right about that one. I heard from a fellow who worked for Tyson that the highest dollar value of meat on a chickent was the foot. They sold them to China. Now, my mom has cooked chicken feet before but I avoided eating them. Reminded me of an unskinned snake with no meat on a bone. I know what they walked on and they weren't wearing any shoes.

There has to be a way that little packing plants can get together and sell some of those things. The asians are really into that stuff for some reason.

Econ in regards to "The asians are really into that stuff for some reason", why do you want the little packing plants to sell some of those things to the Asian markets?

 

[PORKER]

Now if we can get imported lean trimmings from Australia and New Zealand for less than the normal price of chucks and rounds, wouldn't it make sense to grind imported trimmings and blend them with our 50/50 trim and leave the chucks and rounds sell for a higher price?

Bunker ship fuel is so high priced these days that no one can afford to ship cheap materials and sell for cheap prices.Kinda kills the imported lean trimmings from Australia and New Zealand .