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Terminal Vs. Maternal Bulls

Colder weather does influence birth weight. It has been documented that more nutrition flows to the fetus when the weather is extremely cold, causing larger calves regardless of breed.

Big calves from larger bw cattle just can't get up and go like smaller ones do, and that is important when it is cold. In this country that is very important.

Our uncle was involved with some of the first Charolais to come to this country (Wyoming) from France. Of course, they didn't send the US their best cattle. Those first bulls were bred to 8 and 900 lb. cows. At calving time it was terrible, just terrible. There were mature cows hanging up in trees because they had such a hard time calving. This was in the mid to late 50's. That doesn't happen any more, but once you see that, you don't forget it.

Good for you Mike, for being an austute breeder. You would be someone good to buy Charolais bulls from.

As for weaning weights, how much is enough? To us the most you can get with the least amount of problems works here. That might not be for everyone, but that's what goes on around here. I'm sure not telling anyone what breed of cattle to run; to each his own. There are good cattle in every breed.

BTW, our neighbor is a very good manager, makes lots of tracks and pays close attention; more so than we do or need to do. He got into some double muscling in the Charolais breed and that is what caused the problem. He does pull a few calves out of mature cows every year, but it doesn't bother him. He has good weaning weights and he is happy with his operation: and that is what counts in the end. Really, that is what it is ALL about, being happy with what you are doing.
 
I think the bottom line still is the fact that you need to match the cows to the range you have. Here the great big cows take a whole lot more feed to keep from freezing to death and in the summer they don't fare as well when the grass gets hard and dry. also since I pasture calve all but the heifers and in March the temperatures still get well below freezing at night I want a calf thats trying to grab a teat before he even hits the ground. Eighty to Eighty five pound calves seem to work the best any heavier and they're to sluggish and more susceptable to the cold. I like medium framed black baldy cows bred black the best. They work really good on my place and wean six fifty pound calves in mid October that are easy to sell.
 
lots of good Charolais cattle out there we ran them for 35 years but we went away from them because I could sell Angus X bred heifers for more than finished Charolais steers-if the Angus breed keeps going the direction it is there will be more Charolais bulls back on our place-I can truthfully say my smoky cows were every bit as good if not better than out straight blacks are. We never ever ran into a hard calving Charolais bull and we ran alot of them over the years.
 
Northern Rancher said:
lots of good Charolais cattle out there we ran them for 35 years but we went away from them because I could sell Angus X bred heifers for more than finished Charolais steers-if the Angus breed keeps going the direction it is there will be more Charolais bulls back on our place-I can truthfully say my smoky cows were every bit as good if not better than out straight blacks are. We never ever ran into a hard calving Charolais bull and we ran alot of them over the years.
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Just gotta stay away from those EXT's :wink: :wink:
 
You gotta admit tho, those EXTs hit the ground running, either right at you or headed for the hills :wink: You don't have to pull any of them, you only have to be able to catch them to tag em.
 
..............You can never buy what you can raise...


I think as cattle producers we all think no cattle are like our own but the fact being you can buy very nice cattle on the market today. With the current price of calves in the fall I am not sure how economical it is to keep replacement heifers that you have to feed for two years and take the chance of death loss on for those years before you ever get a product to sell. Hard to pass up 750 dollars for a weened heifer calf.
 
CattleRMe said:
..............You can never buy what you can raise...


I think as cattle producers we all think no cattle are like our own but the fact being you can buy very nice cattle on the market today. With the current price of calves in the fall I am not sure how economical it is to keep replacement heifers that you have to feed for two years and take the chance of death loss on for those years before you ever get a product to sell. Hard to pass up 750 dollars for a weened heifer calf.
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I just explained this to my kids those heifer's we raised cost us from Nov 1st of 04 to Nov 1st of 05 $1115.00 thats ALL expences plus interest also figured in their value on weaning day.those same heifers would have cost you $1325 per head for a gain of $210 per heifer on our 40 heifers I made $8400 raiseing them.I lost 1 of my bred heifers a month ago but that could have happened with purchased heifers as I would have already bought them.

You cant use it cost you 2 years before you show a profit cause you can't buy pair's a month before shipping for bred heifer price.If your buying bred heifer's you buy them 9 to 11 months before you ever ship a calf.

You may have an extra $100 per head into raiseing them depending on when you purchase bred heifer's but don't forget your time spent looking at and buying cattle plus the cost of transporting them home all this cost money which should be charged towards your new heifer's.
 
Mike: I agree wholeheartedly with you on the value of heterosis. Like most on the board here I want that 80 to 85 pound calf. I still get one once in a while up to 100 lbs. with no problems but I won't keep a replacement heifer over 90 lbs. The higher birth weights tend to have more problems with abnormal presentations and claf vigor.


As for the labor situation being scarce. Pretty hard to hire someone to watch your cows at night in this area.


Mike: you brought up a good topic. It is like milk epds, not one size fits all. I personally can't understand the number of +30 pound mild epd Angus bulls that are currently being used hard in this area.
 
I agree with sw's comment about gestation length. I understand that it will not answer the question presented but is something to think about. As we breed cattle to be more efficent, we have added EPD's in the form of dollar values, but we have not looked at the fact that a more efficent cow will have a shorter gestation. I have noticed that within our herd that the more efficent cow families have a noticeably shorter gestation.
As far as the question at hand I feel that Soapweed might have the quote to answer it. "All things in moderation". There are Angus bulls that have every bit og growth and end product merit as terminal cross sires. I can only assume that Red Angus, Simmental, and several other breeds do as well. So with the commercial herd where the are no straight breds then a rotation of these genetics should work. I guess it would be like breeding the balancer that is best suited to your enviroment.
 
Denny said:
CattleRMe said:
..............You can never buy what you can raise...


I think as cattle producers we all think no cattle are like our own but the fact being you can buy very nice cattle on the market today. With the current price of calves in the fall I am not sure how economical it is to keep replacement heifers that you have to feed for two years and take the chance of death loss on for those years before you ever get a product to sell. Hard to pass up 750 dollars for a weened heifer calf.
Click to expand...

I just explained this to my kids those heifer's we raised cost us from Nov 1st of 04 to Nov 1st of 05 $1115.00 thats ALL expences plus interest also figured in their value on weaning day.those same heifers would have cost you $1325 per head for a gain of $210 per heifer on our 40 heifers I made $8400 raiseing them.I lost 1 of my bred heifers a month ago but that could have happened with purchased heifers as I would have already bought them.

You cant use it cost you 2 years before you show a profit cause you can't buy pair's a month before shipping for bred heifer price.If your buying bred heifer's you buy them 9 to 11 months before you ever ship a calf.

You may have an extra $100 per head into raiseing them depending on when you purchase bred heifer's but don't forget your time spent looking at and buying cattle plus the cost of transporting them home all this cost money which should be charged towards your new heifer's.
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Denny did you figure income tax on the extra income from those 40 heifers? I figured I couldn't aford to sell all my heifers because Uncle Sam would have taken 30% of what ever they brought.
 
If everybody wants to sell all there heifers, and by there replacements thats fine but who are you going to buy heifers from?

Somebody needs to raise replacement quality hefiers. The more people selling heifers for feeding the more price goes up for quality replacements.

Have a good one
 
All very good points, guys.

And don't forget disposition and feet.
I know of people that buy their replacements that have to cull for disposition. On your own cattle, you usually know before you breed them which need culled. And feet has become an issue in the Angus breed. We went through a time where we had some bad-footed cattle. Never kept any heifers out of those cows and got rid of the cows as soon as the feet problem showed itself. By doing this we have pretty much eliminated the problem. But buying heifers, this is what is offered for sale in many instances, but it doesn't show up for a few years. And some of the heifers have many brands on them as well. Really doesn't hurt anything, but not something we would like to buy.

We like keeping our own. Like many things, you pay now or you pay later. There are pros and cons to both ways. With the attention we give to breeding for maternal, we really would have a hard time buying back what we raise. And we know these are purebred Angus.

BTW, haven't had a problem selling the straight black steers at all. None, and for market price or better; plus a premium on the black heifers.
 
Andy said:
Denny said:
CattleRMe said:
..............You can never buy what you can raise...


I think as cattle producers we all think no cattle are like our own but the fact being you can buy very nice cattle on the market today. With the current price of calves in the fall I am not sure how economical it is to keep replacement heifers that you have to feed for two years and take the chance of death loss on for those years before you ever get a product to sell. Hard to pass up 750 dollars for a weened heifer calf.
Click to expand...

I just explained this to my kids those heifer's we raised cost us from Nov 1st of 04 to Nov 1st of 05 $1115.00 thats ALL expences plus interest also figured in their value on weaning day.those same heifers would have cost you $1325 per head for a gain of $210 per heifer on our 40 heifers I made $8400 raiseing them.I lost 1 of my bred heifers a month ago but that could have happened with purchased heifers as I would have already bought them.

You cant use it cost you 2 years before you show a profit cause you can't buy pair's a month before shipping for bred heifer price.If your buying bred heifer's you buy them 9 to 11 months before you ever ship a calf.

You may have an extra $100 per head into raiseing them depending on when you purchase bred heifer's but don't forget your time spent looking at and buying cattle plus the cost of transporting them home all this cost money which should be charged towards your new heifer's.
Click to expand...

Denny did you figure income tax on the extra income from those 40 heifers? I figured I couldn't aford to sell all my heifers because Uncle Sam would have taken 30% of what ever they brought.
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I never sold my bred heifers I am calveing them out.Your question was how economical it was to raise your own heifers.As far as taxes go if you manage your finances properly you can keep those to a minimum which it sounds like you have.I would purchase some equipment if taxes were going to get it but sooner or later Uncle Sam gets his.
 
Denny: Good post on the price of your heifers. Also keep in mind that your actual cost of raising those heifers was acutually less than the $1135 because you probably made about $150 on the heifer calf off the cow. I know you need to figure your way but your acutal cost of raising that bred heifer was actually less than the $1135.
 
jason wrote
Mike your temps down there eliminate a lot of calving troubles. Warmer weather is proven to lower birth weights. Many guys here that use exotics still pull several calves a year even out of good sized cows.
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that is narrow minded crap Jason. The only non "exotic" animals on the plains are buffalo and deer. That statement is like saying all polled herefords are dwarfs or all angus are wild cowboy killers.................. Breed snobs make me sick!
 
We have only Continental breeds. Char and Limo both. For that matter, we don't consider Charolais to be a terminal breed.

We do not consider it normal to pull a calf from a cow. If we've pulled a calf from a mature cow, there is a reason such as a leg back, or tangled up twins.

Calving difficulty is not breed specific any more. I remember talking to a fellow several years ago who brought his fourth or fifth cow to the vet clinic for a C-section. Red Angus bred Red Angus. When I asked him what the birthweight had been on his bull, he said 130 pounds. He was surprised when we suggested that may be the cause of his problems. He had been told that the breed never had calving problems, assumed that was correct, and went out and bought the highest performer he could find.

Over the past twenty or so years, the so called terminal breeds have been working very hard to select for calving ease at the same time as the British breeds have been chasing the performance aspects. The result as I've seen it is that they are meeting in the middle.
 
that is what I was trying to get at Kato, guess I didn't get the point across, there are curve benders out there but the Angus ain't the Angus of 20 years ago and the Chars, Gv and simmies arent the same either, most everybosy has realized that moderation is the place to be.
 
Speaking of Simmentals, isn't it unbelievable how a breed can change so fast? I'm not sure how it's going in the U.S., but the Simmental cattle on the market here now don't even remotely resemble the ones that were popular even 5 years ago.
 

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