The Courts have decided.

[Tommy]

Tam...And I hear the big hold up with the Japanese deal is the fact you have no way of age verifing your beef and that is the one thing Canada has in its favor.

You are wrong Tam, in fact Joplin Regional Stockyards is going to have a sale soon with age and source verified cattle.
So, is what you said a lie?

Tam...Give more money, donate more calves, as it takes alot of money to keep those R-CALF lawyers in the lifestyle they have come accustom to . ..

OK I will.

 

[Tommy]

Just for you Tam, I wouldn't want you to keep spreading lies.


Missouri First State to Implement QSA (10/14/05 10:15)

OMAHA (DTN) -- The Missouri Department of Agriculture (MDA) is now fully-implementing a Quality Systems Assessment (QSA) program recently approved by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA). Missouri is the first state in the U.S. to implement a QSA program allowing producers to sell source and age verified cattle with third party verification.

"The QSA program certifies that cattle producers are the place to purchase not only quality livestock but a guaranteed history of origin and birth," says Fred Ferrell, director of MDA.

The international demand for age verification is driven primarily to regain access to valuable export markets. A joint letter between the U.S. and Japan in October 2004 stipulated that in order to regain access to Japan, cattle must be 20 months of age or less at the time of harvest.

"All Missouri producers will be eligible to apply for this program," says Shane Brookshire, state veterinarian with MDA. "This program will provide tremendous economic advantages to our state's producers as the market emerges.

In order to be eligible for a supplier evaluation, a cow/calf producer's actual calving records defining the calving season must be available. An on-site supplier evaluation is required by a USDA Quality Systems Assessment program and verified the ability of the producer to source and age verify a certain number of feeder cattle.

The QSA program has been developed by MDA, University of Missouri Extension and IMI Global in cooperation with the following current branded programs: MFA, Joplin Regional Stockyards, Missouri Cattlemen's Association, Missouri Veterinary Medical Association and the Missouri Livestock Marketing Association.

Qualifying producers can enroll with Missouri's new QSA program or with one of the approved programs.

Joplin Regional Stockyards is the first program approved under Missouri's QSA program.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Good for Missouri. Maybe the "Show ME state" will show Montana and some of the rest of the states how it's done. Looks quite abit like what we have been doing in Canada for a while.
Do you think Missouri can supply Japans needs with out the rest of the states on board?

 

[Tommy]

BMR...Do you think Missouri can supply Japans needs with out the rest of the states on board?

I don't know, but it is a start and they are other programs out there for age and source verified cattle. If the buyers pay a premium for these cattle there will be more get on board. If not why bother?

 

[Anonymous]

BMR...Do you think Missouri can supply Japans needs with out the rest of the states on board?

I don't know, but it is a start and they are other programs out there for age and source verified cattle. If the buyers pay a premium for these cattle there will be more get on board. If not why bother?

Tommy- of the cattle I have seen moving out of around here- the majority of the buyers are getting signed affidavits verifying calving period (age)- state, county and range areas pastured - any feed supplement data- vaccination records....These affidavits go with the buyer, along with a government verification (brand inspection) that these are the sellers cattle that were sold to that buyer (source).....

 

[Tam]

So I lied did I Tommy you think one States marketing rule will satisfy the billion dollar market if Japan opens up. I did a google search and I found some interesting articles and of the ones I read the Japanese are worried about how the US will be able to verify the age of the beef they ship to them. One of the sites I found was a briefing from the US Delegation from Japan. What was surprising Oldtimer was not one Japanese Reporter asked about how the US will guarantee that Japan won't get Canadian beefin shipments from the US. All questions were pointed at the noncompliance of the US system. They even came right out said they have heard of the noncompliance of the US testing, feed bans, and SRM removal, and they were questioning how the US could verify age if they can't guarantee compliance of any of the rest of the rules that the US system is to live by?
Then I read an article by Steve Cornett on Ag Web dated Sept 3 2005 where he talks about the importance of age verified beef but he says

"To retain any value your records will need to pass to a feeder or buyer who has also arranged to take advantage. If he buys a load with papers and a load without papers and mixes them without individual ID, he won't be able to sell them as age vertified. So he'll have to segregate, tag and record his actions accordingly. Then the calves would go to packers who have previously enrolled in a QSA program. There is little doubt there will be a premium available at this level once the Japanese market open. (Assuming they keep their 20 month rule and they accept the USDA BEV program as proof of age)

First wasn't it you Oldtimer that was worried about the expense of segregating Canadian heifers for export? Will US feeders/buyers that are not yet recieving a premium take the added expence of segregating. I know the R-CALF doesn't want to burden the US producers with tagging their cattle so why should the buyers be burdened? By Steve's comment about assuming the Japan accept the USDA BEV program and all the questions from the Japanese about age verification I have to wonder if the Age verifiction is not a sticking point with the negotiations.
I also found an article where the US proposed the meat tenderness test to verify age but it didn't look as if the Japanese fully agreed to that either. I read this about that way of verification in an article by Don Stonemen on betterfarming.com titled "Age Vertification gives Canadian Producers a Competitive Edge in Export Markets.

Canada has a better identification system that includes age verification, which enables cattle to be sorted by age prior to being sent to the plant and processed as a group. It's important that cattlemen put that information into the identification system, Masswohl says.

The United States has age verification based on carcass grading at the end of the kill line. Not only is this a less efficient way of establishing age, it also means that some high value cuts aren't available to be shipped to key markets such as Japan.

Masswohl points out that beef tongues are worth $7 a pound in Japan and 60 cents a pound in North America. In the American system, packers will already have cut the heads off before the age of the animal is verified. So a significant source of income for each young animal is not available for sale in lucrative overseas markets.

Now if according to the Japanese reporters in the US Delegation briefing

So far, the demand from Japan for short plate, for beef-rice, and tongue - those were demanded by Japanese market. Looking at the age of the beef and if a birth date is confirmed, then the trading practice will be different. It will be individual or whole animal trading basis, and there is 35 percent - there is domestic demand in the United States and it is impossible to purchase all of the amount in Japan, is there enough for Japan - 35 percent, short plate and tongue?

Now if the way the US is proposing to age verify is done after the head is GONE how will you fill the demand for the TONGUE? Gee could this be another sticking point pointing at the age verification problem in the US.
When I did my google search I came up with over a million hits on age verification problems (1,510,000 for Age verification is problem with Japan deal. (0.09 seconds) but when I did a google search about the Canadian beef causeing problems with US trade negotiations there were only a few hundred and I couldn't seem to find anything newer than 2003. So if you could bring anything newer Oldtimer I would like to see it.

By the way Sandhusker what percent of short plate and tongue makes up the US beef cattle? Again according to the Japanese that is what they are demanding.

 

[Anonymous]

Tam-- how much beef is Canada shipping to Japan? You seem to be worrying about all the answers for the US and NCBA and R-CALF and the US feedlots- but you still aren't shipping any steaks to Japan...Maybe you should worry about that...Or are you admitting Canada has to ride on the shirtails of the US producer? Many Japanese consumers probably don't know they ever ate Canadian beef- most came thru the states and was marked with the USDA stamp.....

You may need to worry about your packer buddies at Lakeside- I see where a couple of the Tyson big shots are being investigated for running a car off the road- injuring a union official....Nice to see such high morale and strong work ethics in a food factory :wink:

And you won't find any official releases about the Canadian problem with Japan exports--USDA has backed themselves into such a hole, they are officially keeping everything quiet.....They are finding that their old "if we open our border, so will everyone else" theory is full of bull......

 

[Tam]

Tam-- how much beef is Canada shipping to Japan? You seem to be worrying about all the answers for the US and NCBA and R-CALF and the US feedlots- but you still aren't shipping any steaks to Japan...Maybe you should worry about that...Or are you admitting Canada has to ride on the shirtails of the US producer? Many Japanese consumers probably don't know they ever ate Canadian beef- most came thru the states and was marked with the USDA stamp.....

You may need to worry about your packer buddies at Lakeside- I see where a couple of the Tyson big shots are being investigated for running a car off the road- injuring a union official....Nice to see such high morale and strong work ethics in a food factory :wink:

And you won't find any official releases about the Canadian problem with Japan exports--USDA has backed themselves into such a hole, they are officially keeping everything quiet.....They are finding that their old "if we open our border, so will everyone else" theory is full of bull......

Again Oldtimer Japan has said they will open to both the US and Canada and as long as you think you can bully your way into a country we are being held hostage. And again with the shirttails even Japan knows to question where the US ia going to get the beef as you don't have enough to supply the domestic market and them too.
Who said anything about offical releases Oldtimer according to my research I came up with 249 hits for Canadian beef problems of Japanese/US beef trade negotiations . (0.10 seconds) as you can see that is the whole World Wide Web Oldtimer and only 249 hits and nothing I read was newer than 2003. But as you can see by my edit to my post before I found 1,510,000 for Age verification is problem with Japan deal. 0.09 seconds. Notice the time it took to find them, 1.5 million in .09 seconds and 249 in .10 seconds. Looks like far more worry about the age than Canadian beef doesn't it?

Tyson big shots are being investigated for running a car off the road- injuring a union official....

How do you know these aren't US guys running Canadian guys over. you do have a history of running over top people that get in the US's way. :wink:

 

[rancher]

Tam-- how much beef is Canada shipping to Japan? You seem to be worrying about all the answers for the US and NCBA and R-CALF and the US feedlots- but you still aren't shipping any steaks to Japan...Maybe you should worry about that...Or are you admitting Canada has to ride on the shirtails of the US producer? Many Japanese consumers probably don't know they ever ate Canadian beef- most came thru the states and was marked with the USDA stamp.....

You may need to worry about your packer buddies at Lakeside- I see where a couple of the Tyson big shots are being investigated for running a car off the road- injuring a union official....Nice to see such high morale and strong work ethics in a food factory :wink:

And you won't find any official releases about the Canadian problem with Japan exports--USDA has backed themselves into such a hole, they are officially keeping everything quiet.....They are finding that their old "if we open our border, so will everyone else" theory is full of bull......

Again Oldtimer Japan has said they will open to both the US and Canada and as long as you think you can bully your way into a country we are being held hostage. And again with the shirttails even Japan knows to question where the US ia going to get the beef as you don't have enough to supply the domestic market and them too.
Who said anything about offical releases Oldtimer according to my research I came up with 249 hits for Canadian beef problems of Japanese/US beef trade negotiations . (0.10 seconds) as you can see that is the whole World Wide Web Oldtimer and only 249 hits and nothing I read was newer than 2003. But as you can see by my edit to my post before I found 1,510,000 for Age verification is problem with Japan deal. 0.09 seconds. Notice the time it took to find them, 1.5 million in .09 seconds and 249 in .10 seconds. Looks like far more worry about the age than Canadian beef doesn't it?

Tyson big shots are being investigated for running a car off the road- injuring a union official....

How do you know these aren't US guys running Canadian guys over. you do have a history of running over top people that get in the US's way. :wink:

Tam, how much pre-BSE did Canada send to Japan? Maybe the numbers is so low that the Canadian beef industry doesn't really try to get it, they just want the USA market.

 

[agman]

Is Cebull ready to hear the scientific evidence he didn't listen to the first time. I think he would open himself up to being critizied for "photocopying" RCALF's notes the first time it came to him!

Murgen-"photocopying notes" as you call it is very common in court decisions...Most Judges do not spend time writing their own decisions and opinions- they have both sides submit proposed rulings or findings- and then after going over the briefs/and or evidence and making their decision they use these proposed findings or parts of these proposals to "write" their ruling....

Another Black Helicopter you don't have to worry about circling your house anymore.... :wink: :lol: :lol:

Notes are vastly different from copying two-thirds of his opinion verbatim including spelling errors.

 

[agman]

How dumb are you it has been said many times that the Japanese will be openning their imports to both the US and Canada at the same time.

And who has said that many times? USDA would like to hold out for that, but the reports I have been hearing is that the Canadian beef is one of the big issues holding up the Japanese safety commission and many consumers and politicians that think of Canada as a higher risk BSE area- and whether the US can prove that we can age and segregate out Canadian beef- But you won't hear that from USDA that has used ever method they can to open the border and already been caught using illegal means to get in Canadian beef for their Buddies. But their credibility has long been lost....

You know Oldtimer you said you would like to see what the courts had to say about the issue. Well R-CALF may have won with Cebull, but that ruling was ripped to shreddes by the Court of Appeals. When R-CALF asked for a rehearing over 40 other judges looked at it and said NO

Tam-You better go back to law school- Neither the 3 Judge panel nor the entire 9th circuit court looked at the evidence of the science or interpretation of the science or made a decision based on whether the science is valid...All they ruled on was that USDA had the authority to make the decision- and all their ruling did was remove the injunction......Nothing more has been done on the initial case on the flawed science, interpretation, and way it was implemented....

Wrong again OT, the three judge panel saw all the evidence presented at Cebull's trail. They at least know how to read and did not have to copy R-Calf's comments to derive at an opinion.

 

[Tam]

Tam-- how much beef is Canada shipping to Japan? You seem to be worrying about all the answers for the US and NCBA and R-CALF and the US feedlots- but you still aren't shipping any steaks to Japan...Maybe you should worry about that...Or are you admitting Canada has to ride on the shirtails of the US producer? Many Japanese consumers probably don't know they ever ate Canadian beef- most came thru the states and was marked with the USDA stamp.....

You may need to worry about your packer buddies at Lakeside- I see where a couple of the Tyson big shots are being investigated for running a car off the road- injuring a union official....Nice to see such high morale and strong work ethics in a food factory :wink:

And you won't find any official releases about the Canadian problem with Japan exports--USDA has backed themselves into such a hole, they are officially keeping everything quiet.....They are finding that their old "if we open our border, so will everyone else" theory is full of bull......

Again Oldtimer Japan has said they will open to both the US and Canada and as long as you think you can bully your way into a country we are being held hostage. And again with the shirttails even Japan knows to question where the US ia going to get the beef as you don't have enough to supply the domestic market and them too.
Who said anything about offical releases Oldtimer according to my research I came up with 249 hits for Canadian beef problems of Japanese/US beef trade negotiations . (0.10 seconds) as you can see that is the whole World Wide Web Oldtimer and only 249 hits and nothing I read was newer than 2003. But as you can see by my edit to my post before I found 1,510,000 for Age verification is problem with Japan deal. 0.09 seconds. Notice the time it took to find them, 1.5 million in .09 seconds and 249 in .10 seconds. Looks like far more worry about the age than Canadian beef doesn't it?

Tyson big shots are being investigated for running a car off the road- injuring a union official....

How do you know these aren't US guys running Canadian guys over. you do have a history of running over top people that get in the US's way. :wink:

Tam, how much pre-BSE did Canada send to Japan? Maybe the numbers is so low that the Canadian beef industry doesn't really try to get it, they just want the USA market.

Well Rancher from what I see you really don't have to worry about what we were sending because I doubt we would have had much of a demand for it in the US anyway. :wink:

Value of Export Markets
Since export markets were closed to Canadian beef in late May of 2003, huge amounts of products that were sold to an overseas markets are now having to be kept in Canada and rendered.
Products such as beef tongues, kidney, tripe (stomach), feet and tails that were valued in Japan and Korea- two major markets for Canadian beef exports- are now sent to rendering or sold into significantly lower valued export markets.

Value of Export Markets- Short Ribs
In fact, another valuable cut- short ribs- were in such high demand that the entire North American production was being sold to Korea.
Now, short ribs are sent to "trim" which ends up in hamburger- and we all know that the price of hamburger at retail has been selling at very low prices. Currently we are only getting 20% of the value of short ribs that we were getting prior to the loss of our export markets in May 2003.

Value of Export Markets

Canadian Beef Export Federation information shows that the value difference in the price of "Canadian offal and thin meats" between export and domestic market is approximately $192 per head! And this number changes as markets open and close (value down 63%).

The loss of the extra value of these products has significantly reduced the revenue received per animal.

Now if the entire North American production of Short ribs were being sent to Korea I doubt we were sending any into the US that weren't being shipped in boxes to Korea by the US. So Oldtimer who was making money off the backs of the Canadian producers.

The loss of the extra value of these products has significantly reduced the revenue received per animal

$192 per head, I would have to say this would be a good reason to want that market back because I doubt we will be shipping much of these meats to the US. And if we do I would have to wonder if they will be eaten in the US or again shipped for a $192 dollar profit.

I wonder if this reduced revenue received per animal could have had something to do with why the profits in Canada didn't cover the losses in the US. :?

 

[Anonymous]

Wrong again OT, the three judge panel saw all the evidence presented at Cebull's trail. They at least know how to read and did not have to copy R-Calf's comments to derive at an opinion.

Agman-I assume you mean trial- but there has been no trial yet- on anything.. No testimony .....Only pretrial briefs filed which Judge Cebull said was enough to issue a temporary injunction- the ninth circuit disagreed on the injunction....But their has been no presentation of evidence or facts regarding the initial case against USDA......

 

[Tam]

Just what evidence did Judge Cebull have to say there was enough to justify a primary injunction. Did R-CALF only have to ask with no evidence for it to be granted by Cebull? Don't you think that possibably R-CALF would have had to have presented something to prove the merits of their case or did they just get the injunction on good faith, questionable looks and a boat load of incentive?

All they ruled on was that USDA had the authority to make the decision-

If the courts decided the USDA had the authority to make the decision that should be the end of the whole mess. or are you saying that one Montana Judge has the authority to take the USDA's or any other Federal departments authority to make decisions away?

 

[Tommy]

First Tam says...the fact you have no way of age verifing your beef and that is the one thing Canada has in its favor.

I prove her wrong and then she diverts.


Tam...you think one States marketing rule will satisfy the billion dollar market if Japan opens up.


I did say there were other programs out there also, Oldtimer even stated about age and source verified cattle selling in Montana. It is just not mandatory here in the USA yet.

 

[Anonymous]

Just what evidence did Judge Cebull have to say there was enough to justify a primary injunction. Did R-CALF only have to ask with no evidence for it to be granted by Cebull? Don't you think that possibably R-CALF would have had to have presented something to prove the merits of their case or did they just get the injunction on good faith, questionable looks and a boat load of incentive?

All they ruled on was that USDA had the authority to make the decision-

If the courts decided the USDA had the authority to make the decision that should be the end of the whole mess. or are you saying that one Montana Judge has the authority to take the USDA's or any other Federal departments authority to make decisions away?

Tam- Preliminary hearings are not trials- Not all evidence is layed out- there is no questioning and cross examination of expert witness- its mostly arguments by attorneys about what will be proved...Apparently Judge Cebull felt it was shown that there would be enough evidence presented by R-CALF to rule the way he did....

In our bureaucratic governement there are checks and balances when govt. agencies make or change rules (which end up with the power of law)- one of these is legislative (congress) which gives the agency the authority to make these rules- second is the judiciary which is there to make sure they don't overstep their bounds and to make sure they are correct in their decision making process......My understanding is that the 9th court ruled on the fact that they did not overstep their bounds- that USDA has the authority to make the decision--BUT they did not look at the evidence concerning the process and whether USDA's decision was correct scientifically....

I still would like to see the USDA scientists that had just finished writing their TSE recommendations on the stand.....Or the USDA bureaucrats that had just shortly before the BSE discovery testified to Congress that border closure was our best line of defense against BSE--I want to see what "science" made that idea change so quickly- the "science" of the almighty dollar :???: ...

 

[Tam]

First Tam says...the fact you have no way of age verifing your beef and that is the one thing Canada has in its favor.

I prove her wrong and then she diverts.


Tam...you think one States marketing rule will satisfy the billion dollar market if Japan opens up.


I did say there were other programs out there also, Oldtimer even stated about age and source verified cattle selling in Montana. It is just not mandatory here in the USA yet.

Terms like
is now fully-implementing
allowing producers to sell
All Missouri producers will be eligible to apply for this program,
Qualifying producers can enroll

Japan is looking for every animal they recieve a tongue from to be age verified not just a few from one or two States. With these terms just how long do you think it will take to have this program covering ALL cattle sold in Missouri and the rest of the US States?

In order to be eligible for a supplier evaluation, a cow/calf producer's actual calving records defining the calving season must be available

And as we have been audited on the age verifing we did last spring I happen to know that you can't just say this is the age. You have to have documented dates and that will not be done over night it takes the life time of the animal being age vertified. Do ALL US producers keep documented proof of the date they turned out their bulls and documented proof of the date the first calf was born. I doubt it and that is what it takes to age verify. Do ALL the producers individually ID their cattle so if they are put in with other cattle they can be sorted back out and have some idea they are the cattle that have been age verified to a certain date? Think about it Tommy One States VOLUNTARY program is not going to cover the billion dollar Japanese export market. Didn't you read the part I posted about the entire North American production of Short Ribs were being shipped to Korea and Japan. that means every animal slaughter in North America is going to have to be Age Verified not those of ONE or two States. That is going to take a national program that is NOT filled with terms like allowing, will be eligible to apply and can enroll.

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- It still leaves one question that you never answer--If Canada has this miraculous system, and everyone is following it, and Japan wants these ribs-------Why isn't Canada exporting directly to Japan today?

 

[Tam]

Just what evidence did Judge Cebull have to say there was enough to justify a primary injunction. Did R-CALF only have to ask with no evidence for it to be granted by Cebull? Don't you think that possibably R-CALF would have had to have presented something to prove the merits of their case or did they just get the injunction on good faith, questionable looks and a boat load of incentive?

All they ruled on was that USDA had the authority to make the decision-

If the courts decided the USDA had the authority to make the decision that should be the end of the whole mess. or are you saying that one Montana Judge has the authority to take the USDA's or any other Federal departments authority to make decisions away?

Tam- Preliminary hearings are not trials- Not all evidence is layed out- there is no questioning and cross examination of expert witness- its mostly arguments by attorneys about what will be proved...Apparently Judge Cebull felt it was shown that there would be enough evidence presented by R-CALF to rule the way he did....

In our bureaucratic governement there are checks and balances when govt. agencies make or change rules (which end up with the power of law)- one of these is legislative (congress) which gives the agency the authority to make these rules- second is the judiciary which is there to make sure they don't overstep their bounds and to make sure they are correct in their decision making process......My understanding is that the 9th court ruled on the fact that they did not overstep their bounds- that USDA has the authority to make the decision--BUT they did not look at the evidence concerning the process and whether USDA's decision was correct scientifically....

I still would like to see the USDA scientists that had just finished writing their TSE recommendations on the stand.....Or the USDA bureaucrats that had just shortly before the BSE discovery testified to Congress that border closure was our best line of defense against BSE--I want to see what "science" made that idea change so quickly- the "science" of the almighty dollar :???: ...

...Apparently the Court of Appeal Judges felt it was shown that there wouldn't be enough evidence presented by R-CALF to rule the way they did.... and the rest of the 47 Judges must have agreed. :wink:

I would like to see Lying Leo and Bullsh** Bullard on the stand too. To see if they can actually tell the truth and not be charged with perjury. :shock: :liar: :gag: :? :wink: :lol2:

 

[Tommy]

Oldtimer...Tam- It still leaves one question that you never answer--If Canada has this miraculous system, and everyone is following it, and Japan wants these ribs-------Why isn't Canada exporting directly to Japan today?

Japan will take Canadain beef when they open their market to USA beef and the USA exports Canadian and USA beef to them. It will be all sold as USA beef.