TexasBred
Well-known member
TexasBred said:
Edited to replace "evil' with "equal".
This week in Christian History
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Edited to replace "evil' with "equal".
burnt
Well-known member
Well, it is discussions like this that illustrate the value of the translation of the Bible!
There was a time when the common people had to accept the word of those "learned" in the Scripture, because only those with learning could read the language(s) of the written text - Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek - (that I know of). The original texts (which were lost fairly quickly, as TB pointed out) were written and rewritten in the common language (the "working class" lingo) and centuries later translated into the language of the day. But as TexasBred pointed out, literacy levels were not high.
Thus, today, any ignorance of matters of Scripture is a personal choice.
And there were indeed many instances of the intent of the written Word being twisted by broadly accepted and misguided cultural ideals. MsSage gave the well-known, well-abused example of order in the home and church.
Having grown up and spending too many years in a very conservative church setting, I can testify first-hand about the damage that type of teaching can do.
A careful reading of how the early church handled gender issues would surprise many, if not most people. And my reading of it would show that there is room, indeed necessity, to recognize that we are called to serve in the Body as He has gifted us. Yet, He has also set in our very created form (Genesis account) an order which is not without reason. Ignoring it results in a rather chaotic outcome.
But hey, don't take my word for it - go look it up and study it yourself. Life will be the better for it.
Thanks to John Wycliffe and his early attempts at translation . . . and the work of the Life-giving Spirit, we can hear what the Creator has to say.
There was a time when the common people had to accept the word of those "learned" in the Scripture, because only those with learning could read the language(s) of the written text - Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek - (that I know of). The original texts (which were lost fairly quickly, as TB pointed out) were written and rewritten in the common language (the "working class" lingo) and centuries later translated into the language of the day. But as TexasBred pointed out, literacy levels were not high.
Thus, today, any ignorance of matters of Scripture is a personal choice.
And there were indeed many instances of the intent of the written Word being twisted by broadly accepted and misguided cultural ideals. MsSage gave the well-known, well-abused example of order in the home and church.
Having grown up and spending too many years in a very conservative church setting, I can testify first-hand about the damage that type of teaching can do.
A careful reading of how the early church handled gender issues would surprise many, if not most people. And my reading of it would show that there is room, indeed necessity, to recognize that we are called to serve in the Body as He has gifted us. Yet, He has also set in our very created form (Genesis account) an order which is not without reason. Ignoring it results in a rather chaotic outcome.
But hey, don't take my word for it - go look it up and study it yourself. Life will be the better for it.
Thanks to John Wycliffe and his early attempts at translation . . . and the work of the Life-giving Spirit, we can hear what the Creator has to say.
balestabber
Well-known member
back in the eighties,and i was a new Christian with lots of growing ahead of me,a man come thru springfield,mo and visited the Church i was attending.i can not remember his name.
but he was suppose to be the largest collector of old Bibles and Scrolls in the world.i remember the Church standing guard 24 hours while he was there and that he was searching for a museum for his private collection at that time.
he had a scroll,he claimed was written on sheeps skin.
and some pieces of stone with biblical scripture,alot of it he claimed to be authentic,
it was very interesting and sure made a believer out of me at that time.
he opened the scroll of sheeps skin for all to see,but it was hard to translate.
just thought i'd share,interesting thread.
thanks burnt
but he was suppose to be the largest collector of old Bibles and Scrolls in the world.i remember the Church standing guard 24 hours while he was there and that he was searching for a museum for his private collection at that time.
he had a scroll,he claimed was written on sheeps skin.
and some pieces of stone with biblical scripture,alot of it he claimed to be authentic,
it was very interesting and sure made a believer out of me at that time.
he opened the scroll of sheeps skin for all to see,but it was hard to translate.
just thought i'd share,interesting thread.
thanks burnt
burnt
Well-known member
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/thisweekinchristianhistory/
Today is the anniversary of the first Christian broadcast over the airwaves . . .
Luther becomes an "outcast" . . .
A minister is born, gives his life to serving lepers . . .
J.R.R.Tolkien is born this week in 1892, later he pens several of my favorite books - the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, "The Silmarillion" and more.
(The Silmarillion I would recommend to anyone who enjoyed LOTR.)
"January 5, 1527: Swiss Anabaptist reformer Felix Manz is drowned in punishment for preaching adult baptism, becoming the first Protestant martyred by other Protestants". Manz and others formed the base of my own Anabaptist background. His teaching of peace rather than resisting evil is something that must be learned and is not inherited, I have discovered. :?
Joan of Arc is born hereabouts . . .
Just a lot of interesting stuff in this weeks look at Christian History.
Anything that you can relate to directly or indirectly?
Today is the anniversary of the first Christian broadcast over the airwaves . . .
Luther becomes an "outcast" . . .
A minister is born, gives his life to serving lepers . . .
J.R.R.Tolkien is born this week in 1892, later he pens several of my favorite books - the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, "The Silmarillion" and more.
(The Silmarillion I would recommend to anyone who enjoyed LOTR.)
"January 5, 1527: Swiss Anabaptist reformer Felix Manz is drowned in punishment for preaching adult baptism, becoming the first Protestant martyred by other Protestants". Manz and others formed the base of my own Anabaptist background. His teaching of peace rather than resisting evil is something that must be learned and is not inherited, I have discovered. :?
Joan of Arc is born hereabouts . . .
Just a lot of interesting stuff in this weeks look at Christian History.
Anything that you can relate to directly or indirectly?
balestabber
Well-known member
some of this is pretty deep for me yet.and i don't swim.
but my oldest boy has all the books and video series of 'LOTR' and thinks their the best.
as i am down by Branson now,i heard that Jimmy Bakker was the first to discover television worship.
but i hear alot down here.
but my oldest boy has all the books and video series of 'LOTR' and thinks their the best.
as i am down by Branson now,i heard that Jimmy Bakker was the first to discover television worship.
but i hear alot down here.
balestabber
Well-known member
after returning from church and reading more about the history on this site.I will agree with the radio airwaves,but the new television worship,the live streaming,and new technology is something to ponder on.
gcreekrch
Well-known member
balestabber said:
IMO, TV evangelists have lost sight of everything except lining their own pockets.
miocene
Well-known member
IT Seems funny to me that these media evangelists all want people to give their money to the lord but give out their address i question how much money actualy makes it way to do the work of god.?these peoplr are no better than the harri krishnas that work the airports.
TexasBred
Well-known member
gcreekrch said:
Have to agree with you on this gc...These "man made" churches scare the hound out of me.
Like most everything else, technology can be used for good and bad. Educaton has to be one of the greatest steps forward for Christianity as a whole, as people are not only more able to better understand what is being preached but to also own and read sacred scripture.
burnt
Well-known member
I'm not sure when the present day practice of "church" started, such as a lot of people sitting in rows, facing one direction, spending most of their time listening to one person speak. And when that one person loses sight of the original objective, then there is no telling how far wrong things can go.
Such cases are what give the faith a bad reputation.
I'm not saying that it is wrong to meet in such a manner. Rather, it points out the need to do as TexasBred suggested and take personal responsibility for one's spiritual development. That often is then demonstrated within the context of a caring community that impacts those around them by meeting whatever needs they may encounter.
So easy to say, so hard to do! And surely not in the glitzy style of some TV evangelists.
Such cases are what give the faith a bad reputation.
I'm not saying that it is wrong to meet in such a manner. Rather, it points out the need to do as TexasBred suggested and take personal responsibility for one's spiritual development. That often is then demonstrated within the context of a caring community that impacts those around them by meeting whatever needs they may encounter.
So easy to say, so hard to do! And surely not in the glitzy style of some TV evangelists.
TexasBred
Well-known member
burnt said:
I'm sure pews and things came in as a convenience to all. The bible speaks of Paul (I think) preaching all night or well into the nights so you have to assume you have one authoritative teacher and a group of listeners being instructed in the word. People still stand in Greek Orthodox Churches Im told. We sit for instruction, stand for praise and the reading of the gospel and kneel for prayer.
balestabber
Well-known member
in Acts,speaking of Saul and and Barnabas,it mentions 'churches' in plural form for the first time.Acts 9:31 speaks of churches being multiplied.
seems a church on every corner here,sometimes 4 or 5 in a small town.the old churches have some history to them tho.
seems a church on every corner here,sometimes 4 or 5 in a small town.the old churches have some history to them tho.
per
Well-known member
Interesting conversation. 15 years ago we outgrew our little 100 plus year old church building. There were grandiose plans to sell it and build and new one. Every time we came up with the plan God through a road block in front of it. We spent several years worshiping in schools, an old grocery store and a scout hall. Eventually we were pointed in the right direction and built a new building. We have since expanded it a couple of times and are moving to a third service. All the services have the same preaching but different style of music etc. There is activity every night of the week there now and there are small home groups that meet weekly on various nights. Also if you miss the service one Sunday it is available the next day on the Internet.
God is Good.
God is Good.
TexasBred
Well-known member
balestabber said:
All the early christian churches were founded by the apostles and their successors and on that authority. Didn't have that "church on every corner" thing like today. Nor the congregation splitting down the middle and two churches forming both built on anger and stubborness.
balestabber
Well-known member
:nod: ,,,,yep,,,a good point and very true.
one local church in this area claims to have been established over a hundred years ago.with an elderly member nearly 100 years old.
they had a list of all the pastors and how many years they served.
the most yrs served at one time was 6---in a 100 yr time span. the church had split several times.
one local church in this area claims to have been established over a hundred years ago.with an elderly member nearly 100 years old.
they had a list of all the pastors and how many years they served.
the most yrs served at one time was 6---in a 100 yr time span. the church had split several times.
burnt
Well-known member
TexasBred said:
MOSTLY true! The Great Schism of 1054 represented a bit of a split! :? Mutual excommunication sounds at least a little bit angry!
TexasBred
Well-known member
burnt said:
Mostly?? What is not true?? Excommunication is still done today Burnt...but protestants now call it getting "churched". Basically nothing more excommunication .And yeah the "greeat schism" was a loss for everyone but For whatever it's worth the Eastern and Western churches ARE in communion.
burnt
Well-known member
Well I certainly am not an authority on any one tradition, but am painfully aware of some of the more well known turbulence that mainstream and subsequent expressions of faith have encountered. And I would like to see no one so unfortunate as to have experienced the pain and wounding of excommunication, as many have in the history of the faith, and some for wrong reasons.
However, as far as divisions or unity in the church are concerned, I do believe this - our western society is on a determined path of increased secularism and now-overt hatred of Christianity.
Therefore, I see that instead of the 911 years that it took for the two halves of the Catholic Church to even tentatively bridge their differences, Christians everywhere and of every denomination will practically overnight to be forced to acknowledge what it is that unifies them in true faith - the Lordship of Jesus Christ, the risen Son of God.
If this discussion can move those of us who profess Christian faith even one tiny step closer to recognizing the common bond between us, it should be considered a giant step forward for the church.
However, as far as divisions or unity in the church are concerned, I do believe this - our western society is on a determined path of increased secularism and now-overt hatred of Christianity.
Therefore, I see that instead of the 911 years that it took for the two halves of the Catholic Church to even tentatively bridge their differences, Christians everywhere and of every denomination will practically overnight to be forced to acknowledge what it is that unifies them in true faith - the Lordship of Jesus Christ, the risen Son of God.
If this discussion can move those of us who profess Christian faith even one tiny step closer to recognizing the common bond between us, it should be considered a giant step forward for the church.
burnt
Well-known member
Interestingly enough, it was on this date that one attempt was made to re-join the Orthodox and Rome churches. "January 8, 1438: In an attempt to forge an alliance that would save Constantinople from the Turks, the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches meet at the Council of Ferrara-Florence. A temporary union was reached, but Constantinople fell anyway in 1453, ending the Byzantine Empire."
Also, it was on this date that in "1956: Missionaries Jim Elliot, Nate Saint, Roger Youderian, Ed McCully, and Pete Fleming are killed by Ecuadorean Indians they sought to evangelize. The story of the missionaries and their deaths along the Curaray River was publicized by Elliot's widow, Elizabeth, in Through Gates of Splendor, published the following year."
Those guys obviously believed in something more important than just working for a perishing loaf of bread . . .
Also, it was on this date that in "1956: Missionaries Jim Elliot, Nate Saint, Roger Youderian, Ed McCully, and Pete Fleming are killed by Ecuadorean Indians they sought to evangelize. The story of the missionaries and their deaths along the Curaray River was publicized by Elliot's widow, Elizabeth, in Through Gates of Splendor, published the following year."
Those guys obviously believed in something more important than just working for a perishing loaf of bread . . .
burnt
Well-known member
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/thisweekinchristianhistory/
This week's review begins grimly with murder and martyrdom. It also relates how George Whitfield's open-air ministry began when jealous preachers wouldn't let him use their pulpits . . .
And modern day T.V. preachers gone bad, as alluded to in last week's posts, have nothing on this early bit of scandalous history -
"January 11, 1875: The "Scandal of the Century" goes public . . ."
A sad recollection from the past - "January 15, 1697: Massachusetts citizens observe a day of fasting and repentance for the Salem witch trials of 1692, in which 19 suspected witches were hanged and more than 150 imprisoned. The day was declared "That so all of God's people may offer up fervent supplications unto him, that all iniquity may be put away, which hath stirred God's holy jealousy against this land; that he would show us what we know not, and help us, wherein we have done amiss, to do so no more" (see issue 41: American Puritans)." What a powerful prayer!
For further reading-
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/salem.htm
What a horrid story. I wonder if history will look back and see us as participating in "witch hunts" in our time? Are prayer and fasting a thing of the past?
"January 13, 1501: Christianity's first vernacular hymnal . . ." printed, although we would not have been able to sing from it without translation!
Philip Jacob Spener, is born . . . emphasis on new birth and holy living; George Fox, founder of the Society of Friends (Quakers), dies . . .
Here's an important one - Hilary of Poitiers, a man whose anti-Arianism writing and work helped preserve purer doctrine about the nature of Christ. Jesus was fully man, fully God!
Much, much more to read in this week's look back. All these people and actions have left their distinctive mark on the development of the faith that each of us holds (or not) today.
This week's review begins grimly with murder and martyrdom. It also relates how George Whitfield's open-air ministry began when jealous preachers wouldn't let him use their pulpits . . .
And modern day T.V. preachers gone bad, as alluded to in last week's posts, have nothing on this early bit of scandalous history -
"January 11, 1875: The "Scandal of the Century" goes public . . ."
A sad recollection from the past - "January 15, 1697: Massachusetts citizens observe a day of fasting and repentance for the Salem witch trials of 1692, in which 19 suspected witches were hanged and more than 150 imprisoned. The day was declared "That so all of God's people may offer up fervent supplications unto him, that all iniquity may be put away, which hath stirred God's holy jealousy against this land; that he would show us what we know not, and help us, wherein we have done amiss, to do so no more" (see issue 41: American Puritans)." What a powerful prayer!
For further reading-
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/salem.htm
What a horrid story. I wonder if history will look back and see us as participating in "witch hunts" in our time? Are prayer and fasting a thing of the past?
"January 13, 1501: Christianity's first vernacular hymnal . . ." printed, although we would not have been able to sing from it without translation!
Philip Jacob Spener, is born . . . emphasis on new birth and holy living; George Fox, founder of the Society of Friends (Quakers), dies . . .
Here's an important one - Hilary of Poitiers, a man whose anti-Arianism writing and work helped preserve purer doctrine about the nature of Christ. Jesus was fully man, fully God!
Much, much more to read in this week's look back. All these people and actions have left their distinctive mark on the development of the faith that each of us holds (or not) today.