L.E. Stevens
Well-known member
Can anyone tell me the purpose of a tie-down (other than every arena roper uses one)?
TIE-DOWNS
- Thread starter L.E. Stevens
- Start date
Team1roper
Well-known member
We use tie downs to control horses who like to throw their head around or up to high to avoid the pull on the bit
theHiredMansWife
Well-known member
From what i've heard, it's supposed to keep the horses's face in the control range of your reins. Ie, a tie down prevents him from throwing his head up and ignoring you (and possibly running away). But of course if your horse is always doing this, fine tuning his training is a better choice than a mechanical aid anyway...
Faster horses
Well-known member
Horses that tend to toss their heads are generally ridden with a tie-down. You can say they aren't broke well, or whatever. A tie-down is a crutch of a sort to make up for a bad habit a horse has. Most people don't care to ride them outside because it can make things like crossing a creek or a bog dangerous. (Please notice, I didn't say it would, I said it can...).
I see arena ropers (heelers mostly) use way to tight of a tie-down and not undo it when the run is over. Can you imagine how tired that horses neck must get? I do understand why tie-downs are used in roping events. It is a bit of insurance that might save a split second on a run that can make the difference in getting to the pay window or not.
Tie-downs don't interfere with release as there is nothing connected to the reins or the horses mouth. Running martingales do interfere with release at the proper time because there is a drag when the reins run through the rings, thus the release cannot be fast enough.
Pat Parelli says our hands open slowly and close quickly. Just the opposite of what we need to do when riding horses. The drag on the reins when using a martingale keeps the release from being as quick as it could be.
All this is JMHO, of course.
I see arena ropers (heelers mostly) use way to tight of a tie-down and not undo it when the run is over. Can you imagine how tired that horses neck must get? I do understand why tie-downs are used in roping events. It is a bit of insurance that might save a split second on a run that can make the difference in getting to the pay window or not.
Tie-downs don't interfere with release as there is nothing connected to the reins or the horses mouth. Running martingales do interfere with release at the proper time because there is a drag when the reins run through the rings, thus the release cannot be fast enough.
Pat Parelli says our hands open slowly and close quickly. Just the opposite of what we need to do when riding horses. The drag on the reins when using a martingale keeps the release from being as quick as it could be.
All this is JMHO, of course.
Heel Fly
Well-known member
You know I have seen a lot but the one that kills me is when people use them outside the arena. A horse has a neck for balance and if you tie that down it's like you walking a tight rope with no hands. I do a far amount of ropeing, heeling and I don't see the need.Teach your horse what you want him to do and you won't need one. Most of the time they are like martingales a quick fix for someone who either doesn't know what they're doing or doesn't have the time to train they're horses. Maybe those two go toghether. My pennies anyway..
Heel Fly said:
I agree, if the horse is trained right there is no need for a tie down.
Also they are dangerous! If your loping your horse and that horse trips <puts a leg in a gopher hole>, the horse cannot stick his head and neck out to regain his balance. You will have one hell of a wreck!!!!
Brad S
Well-known member
I tend to agree that well finnished horses don't need a tie down, but team ropers say "it gives the horse something to brace against." I'll grant that quality horsemanship is a bit scarce amongst teamropers, there are some skilled horsemen that use tiedowns. I admit I don't understand why, and I'm not buying into the braceoff stuff too much.
A tiedown will drown a horse in the real world - when I hear about this happening, I usually suspect insurance fraud.
A tiedown will drown a horse in the real world - when I hear about this happening, I usually suspect insurance fraud.
floyd
Well-known member
Think part of the roper /tiedown thing could be" everyone else uses em so I better too?"
Folks just put overchecks on horses in harness. Same deal. Show folks like the leg action that comes from making the horse hold it's head up.
Farmers say so they wont eat.
I say little training goes a long way. Damn human beings awful hard to train though
Folks just put overchecks on horses in harness. Same deal. Show folks like the leg action that comes from making the horse hold it's head up.
Farmers say so they wont eat.
I say little training goes a long way. Damn human beings awful hard to train though
katrina
Well-known member
I agree with heelfly on this one....
EastTexasGal
Well-known member
What I was taught, a high hand makes a high head, lower the hand lower the head. Also, in the tie-down scenerio, it was used by calf ropers, as Heeler I think it was said for leverage, it gave the horse something to brace against in stopping and holding. Some just misunderstood the reason behind it and started thinking it was a head setting device. I have seen so many horses ruined by the use of a tie-down. I am like you FH about the use...and this happens to be a pet peeve of mine. Misuse of equipment on horses...guess I studied way to much growing up under different trainers. But, I remember Monte Foreman telling us that to not use something that will develop bad habits in our horses. A lot of his theories and studying has been misunderstood on what he meant by them..he would roll over in his grave over a lot of things being done in the show ring now.
Again just my 2 cents worth, and yes I know how much that seems to be worth lmao..but, like I said this one is just something that is a pet peeve of mine.
Easty
Again just my 2 cents worth, and yes I know how much that seems to be worth lmao..but, like I said this one is just something that is a pet peeve of mine.
Easty
L.E. Stevens
Well-known member
Thanks to all that replied. I'd pretty much heard the "bracing" reason from the local ropers, but I grew up riding outside the pen & didn't understand the bracing concept. I just looked at it as a breakdown in training, a crutch like someone said, but I'm always into learning more.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
EastTexasGal said:
Well, try this sometime...if your horse has his head up, raise your hands up and put some more lift on his head. Won't be long (usually) till he leans on that upward pressure. Just know when to release..... turns out a high hand can lower the head. :wink:
Faster horses
Well-known member
Silver, I was hoping someone would bring that up. Actually, if the hands are low and the release timing isn't right, it will cause a horse to raise his head and get his neck upside down to get rid of or escape the pressure.
Raising both hands will offer the horse release below instead of above, once he figures out where that release really is. He will then tuck his nose and it looks pretty nice. When you watch reiners back their horses, their hands aren't low.
One of my pet peeves is to see someone working their horse with hands so low they are about mid-pocket level. It just looks so wrong. Usually in this instance the horse has his mouth gaped open and isn't flexing his next at all. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. And I heard someone say once about low hands; "it's hard to ride your horse and lead him at the same time."
Glad you mentioned it.
Raising both hands will offer the horse release below instead of above, once he figures out where that release really is. He will then tuck his nose and it looks pretty nice. When you watch reiners back their horses, their hands aren't low.
One of my pet peeves is to see someone working their horse with hands so low they are about mid-pocket level. It just looks so wrong. Usually in this instance the horse has his mouth gaped open and isn't flexing his next at all. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. And I heard someone say once about low hands; "it's hard to ride your horse and lead him at the same time."
Glad you mentioned it.
OldDog/NewTricks
Well-known member
A NON-Horsemans way to break a Horse - When I see a Tie-Down my respect for the rider goes WAY Down - - Might be a Cowboy :dunce: but Is Not A Horseman. :cboy:
theHiredMansWife
Well-known member
RoperAB said:
The guy my husband worked for the summer between highschool and freshman year of college killed his horse with a tie down.
They were chasing cows and the boss ran down through a creek. His horse tripped, couldn't get his head up and piledrove himself into the bank on the opposite side.
EastTexasGal
Well-known member
Well FH I do not argue, but I will defend my way of doing things, because I was also taught that that we are always learning if you are a true horseman. As, a trainer once told me...you try what you learn from others and collect information till you find what works for you.
That "lower the hand lower the head" is a general something we use with kids and it has always worked...if you keep your hand in the air the horse will follow, because most of the time they are also in the horses mouth. I agree there is a half way point..but a high hand?
Now as far as reining, yes some do raise their hands as a CUE to back, and I do understand what you are saying but you also have to remember what training aids were used on the horses before they enter an arena. Most of what you see is cues, they do not start these horses with HIGH HANDS...and yes Silver I do understand what you are saying as well....but, do you carry your hands in the air the whole time you ride?? You are speaking of some training aids in some horses...but, if you carry your hands up high and in that horses mouth what is he going to do??try and get away from you. Maybe I am a little old timey in my methodology, but in most respects we end up in the same place if you are talking training. I know that you can get the face if you KNOW what you are doing but, my hands are not at my nose when I do it. I also know you can pick up a rein a little high to pick up a shoulder, but when you do that you are also using the lower rein on opposite shoulder. But, I do not ride with a HIGH handed always.
I have seen what we call wannabes carrying them hands up high (past their belt buckle prob chest high or higher) that horse is up there with it. And, Now in the low hand, yes you are right if you do not have a release then the horse will find a way to get away from you as well. Now when I lower the hands of the rider, and they stay in the mouth, I have had them duck to low(as some would call peanut roll), I have had them collect into themselves...but to go up in the air...not really seen that and I have taught many riders of all sort, and trained Many horses, and retrained MANY horses.
" hands so low they are about mid-pocket level. It just looks so wrong. Usually in this instance the horse has his mouth gaped open and isn't flexing his next at all. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. And I heard someone say once about low hands; "it's hard to ride your horse and lead him at the same time."
I also teach them that they have pocket space to ride in to get the job done with their horses, from the Saddle horn as center to pocket to pocket. So, I suppose all in all FH I do not fit your idea of a trainer or a teacher...only been doing it for over 20 years.
I no longer train, but I do keep up with different methods and I see a lot of new things going on...that all in all get the same affect we got with the methods we used.
And OT
I agree with you on the tie-down..
Easty[/quote]
That "lower the hand lower the head" is a general something we use with kids and it has always worked...if you keep your hand in the air the horse will follow, because most of the time they are also in the horses mouth. I agree there is a half way point..but a high hand?
Now as far as reining, yes some do raise their hands as a CUE to back, and I do understand what you are saying but you also have to remember what training aids were used on the horses before they enter an arena. Most of what you see is cues, they do not start these horses with HIGH HANDS...and yes Silver I do understand what you are saying as well....but, do you carry your hands in the air the whole time you ride?? You are speaking of some training aids in some horses...but, if you carry your hands up high and in that horses mouth what is he going to do??try and get away from you. Maybe I am a little old timey in my methodology, but in most respects we end up in the same place if you are talking training. I know that you can get the face if you KNOW what you are doing but, my hands are not at my nose when I do it. I also know you can pick up a rein a little high to pick up a shoulder, but when you do that you are also using the lower rein on opposite shoulder. But, I do not ride with a HIGH handed always.
I have seen what we call wannabes carrying them hands up high (past their belt buckle prob chest high or higher) that horse is up there with it. And, Now in the low hand, yes you are right if you do not have a release then the horse will find a way to get away from you as well. Now when I lower the hands of the rider, and they stay in the mouth, I have had them duck to low(as some would call peanut roll), I have had them collect into themselves...but to go up in the air...not really seen that and I have taught many riders of all sort, and trained Many horses, and retrained MANY horses.
" hands so low they are about mid-pocket level. It just looks so wrong. Usually in this instance the horse has his mouth gaped open and isn't flexing his next at all. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. And I heard someone say once about low hands; "it's hard to ride your horse and lead him at the same time."
I also teach them that they have pocket space to ride in to get the job done with their horses, from the Saddle horn as center to pocket to pocket. So, I suppose all in all FH I do not fit your idea of a trainer or a teacher...only been doing it for over 20 years.
I no longer train, but I do keep up with different methods and I see a lot of new things going on...that all in all get the same affect we got with the methods we used.
And OT
I agree with you on the tie-down..Easty[/quote]
MsSage
Well-known member
OK I am going to add in another point of view......I used one on one horse while jumping. He would have a bad habit of tossing his head as he would approach to a water jump. When he would take off he would go more up than out and would end up stepping in the water hazzard and a few times would end up on the ground after slipping most times I only ended up in the water but a couple times I was under him. He was trained by one of the best jumper trainers at that time, she could not get him to stop either and suggested I add the martingale. Once he had that on he would not try to toss his head. He had freedom of balance but could not get his head looking straight up.
Sometimes no amount of training will change a habit in a horse, you have to be wiling to try all tools available. Either that or sell him or get myself hurt ,at that time neither was an option.
I have seen martingales too tight the horse can not move its head at all which is more of a danger than a tool.
As for the low hands I agree you get better contact with a straight line from the mouth to the wrist. Correct contact is NOT a gaping mouth.
Sometimes no amount of training will change a habit in a horse, you have to be wiling to try all tools available. Either that or sell him or get myself hurt ,at that time neither was an option.
I have seen martingales too tight the horse can not move its head at all which is more of a danger than a tool.
As for the low hands I agree you get better contact with a straight line from the mouth to the wrist. Correct contact is NOT a gaping mouth.
Faster horses
Well-known member
Well, Easty I didn't mean for you to take my comments personally.
In looking back, I can see that I missed one important point. I did not mean to ride "high-handed" per sei. What I meant was in training you can use high hands to make a horse drop his nose and his head instead of trying to get "above the pressure". This is to be accomplished with a snaffle bit, of course. When done correctly, a person can hold the reins in both hands, liven the reins a bit while holding your hands high and get the horse to put his nose completely on the ground, working "under" the pressure.
I hope this cleared up my previous post. And it was never meant personally against you.
Sometimes posting something here gives the wrong impression.
In looking back, I can see that I missed one important point. I did not mean to ride "high-handed" per sei. What I meant was in training you can use high hands to make a horse drop his nose and his head instead of trying to get "above the pressure". This is to be accomplished with a snaffle bit, of course. When done correctly, a person can hold the reins in both hands, liven the reins a bit while holding your hands high and get the horse to put his nose completely on the ground, working "under" the pressure.
I hope this cleared up my previous post. And it was never meant personally against you.
Sometimes posting something here gives the wrong impression.
Just a quick thought.
First off I didnt exactly study everybody elses posts but from what I have tried to read with two pre schoolers <my kids> in the background making a racket and screwing up my consentration :lol: but from what I have read I kind of agree with everybody because it all depends on the individual horse and the program your following and the level of training or how far the horse is in the program.
Example with my program my hands are generally low at the start and as we advance in the training program my hand or hands come higher.
Years ago my program was different than what im doing now. I used to start colts in a halter and get them going pretty good until I put them in a snaffle. Anyway when I was starting them in a halter lots of times to get them to back up I would lift straight<tug and release> up in the air on the rein to get the green colt to back up. The end result was the green colt would actually put his head down and frame himself up and back up. Now if I would have just tried to pull back on the rein to get the colt to back up it might work on some or the colt might put his head on upside down to escape the pressure.
:lol: Anyway I guess im just try to say is that depending on the circumstances nobody was wrong with what they were saying about hand position. Anything can work some of the time on some horses.
First off I didnt exactly study everybody elses posts but from what I have tried to read with two pre schoolers <my kids> in the background making a racket and screwing up my consentration :lol: but from what I have read I kind of agree with everybody because it all depends on the individual horse and the program your following and the level of training or how far the horse is in the program.
Example with my program my hands are generally low at the start and as we advance in the training program my hand or hands come higher.
Years ago my program was different than what im doing now. I used to start colts in a halter and get them going pretty good until I put them in a snaffle. Anyway when I was starting them in a halter lots of times to get them to back up I would lift straight<tug and release> up in the air on the rein to get the green colt to back up. The end result was the green colt would actually put his head down and frame himself up and back up. Now if I would have just tried to pull back on the rein to get the colt to back up it might work on some or the colt might put his head on upside down to escape the pressure.
:lol: Anyway I guess im just try to say is that depending on the circumstances nobody was wrong with what they were saying about hand position. Anything can work some of the time on some horses.
EastTexasGal
Well-known member
That is okay, just wanted to clarify that I have been doing it many years. Yes, I train with a O-ring snaffle...even used a combination that I really like, that is a sidepull/snaffle. I did know what you meant on setting the head by getting the face. Started out a old Monte Foreman method...side to side then the head normally will lower, now it has gotten a little finessed from his ideas. It is great how things that were somewhat simple are now made into a science.
I am okay FH.... :wink: I too have been told at times I can be real direct(which is a nice way of putting things).
Easty
I am okay FH.... :wink: I too have been told at times I can be real direct(which is a nice way of putting things).
Easty