Top 10 Reasons Against Mandatory Animal ID

[ocm]

7. No Economic Benefit with Mandatory ID. Basic economics tells us that if all cattle are tagged and tracked then there will be no premium for source verified cattle.

Now there's some real brilliance. If source verification did not have value to the consumer that was passed on to the producer, how can you explain the fact that some grids are offering premiums for source verification? Why would that value disappear if all cattle were source verified? Either source verification has value for all cattle or it has value for no cattle. The fact that grid premiums are allowed for source verified cattle proves it has value to the consumer. This dog wont hunt.

~SH~

I'll just take one so that I can illustrate your level of thinking. If there was a premium being paid for black cattle, then the USDA decreed that everybody must raise black cattle, would there still be a premium for black cattle?

NO. The supply would exceed the demand.

If 100% of cattle are source verified, would there be a premium paid for it?

This is kindergarten economics. Think about it.

If everybody sells source verified cattle, everybody gets a premium for their cattle.~~~~ To paraphrase you----------BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

7. No Economic Benefit with Mandatory ID. Basic economics tells us that if all cattle are tagged and tracked then there will be no premium for source verified cattle.

Now there's some real brilliance. If source verification did not have value to the consumer that was passed on to the producer, how can you explain the fact that some grids are offering premiums for source verification? Why would that value disappear if all cattle were source verified? Either source verification has value for all cattle or it has value for no cattle. The fact that grid premiums are allowed for source verified cattle proves it has value to the consumer. This dog wont hunt.

~SH~

I'll just take one so that I can illustrate your level of thinking. If there was a premium being paid for black cattle, then the USDA decreed that everybody must raise black cattle, would there still be a premium for black cattle?

NO. The supply would exceed the demand.

If 100% of cattle are source verified, would there be a premium paid for it?

This is kindergarten economics. Think about it.

If everybody sells source verified cattle, everybody gets a premium for their cattle.~~~~ To paraphrase you----------BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.

Our cattle have Man ID but voluntary age verification. Cargill is paying $20 premium for age verification and we can do that just by registering that date to our M'ID tag records. The packers can access the age of the animal but not the previous owners. That info is held for CFIA incase of disease .

 

[crpinto]

Why Mandatory EID?
Ten different owners brought 1 single cow to the sale barn for auction.
Of the 10 cows 6 had EID tags.
All of the single cows were put together in 1 pen, but they were sold individually.
Sixty days later 4 of the 10 cows came down with a serious disease.
Only six of the 10 cows had trace-back movement records.
Only 1 of the ten cows had not been sold since the auction.
4 cows went to producers who do not use EID, and had already sold them.
4 cows went to producers who failed to report movement information to the database
(Only had them a week, not worth the bother)
1 cow was put out to pasture with 60 steers that are now at a feedlot without EID tags.

50% of all of the steers living at the feedlot die before the source pen can be found.
30% of all of the cows who came into contact with the 10 original cows are dead

The producer who did not use EID saved a few bucks on tags, but in turn totally wiped out the producer who voluntarily used EID tags.

Are you sure they won't hurt anyone but themselves if they don't use EID tags?

 

[ocm]

Why Mandatory EID?
Ten different owners brought 1 single cow to the sale barn for auction.
Of the 10 cows 6 had EID tags.
All of the single cows were put together in 1 pen, but they were sold individually.
Sixty days later 4 of the 10 cows came down with a serious disease.
Only six of the 10 cows had trace-back movement records.
Only 1 of the ten cows had not been sold since the auction.
4 cows went to producers who do not use EID, and had already sold them.
4 cows went to producers who failed to report movement information to the database
(Only had them a week, not worth the bother)
1 cow was put out to pasture with 60 steers that are now at a feedlot without EID tags.

50% of all of the steers living at the feedlot die before the source pen can be found.
30% of all of the cows who came into contact with the 10 original cows are dead

The producer who did not use EID saved a few bucks on tags, but in turn totally wiped out the producer who voluntarily used EID tags.

Are you sure they won't hurt anyone but themselves if they don't use EID tags?

Check out Reason number 3 above. What you are describing would only be untraceable in a non-brand state or a non-brand area of a state. Many states already have systems in place to deal with the exact situation you described. If yours doesn't then get them to fix it. Why go overboard and have a FEDERAL requirement that penalizes all of us for the failure of only some of us.

Let me say it again. Where I live the situation you describe is ALREADY covered by STATE brand inspection and cattle title transfer laws. My state is working the improve the EXISTING laws and the EXISTING systems to work even better without mandatory ID. I support that effort.

 

[ocm]

Now there's some real brilliance. If source verification did not have value to the consumer that was passed on to the producer, how can you explain the fact that some grids are offering premiums for source verification? Why would that value disappear if all cattle were source verified? Either source verification has value for all cattle or it has value for no cattle. The fact that grid premiums are allowed for source verified cattle proves it has value to the consumer. This dog wont hunt.

~SH~

I'll just take one so that I can illustrate your level of thinking. If there was a premium being paid for black cattle, then the USDA decreed that everybody must raise black cattle, would there still be a premium for black cattle?

NO. The supply would exceed the demand.

If 100% of cattle are source verified, would there be a premium paid for it?

This is kindergarten economics. Think about it.

If everybody sells source verified cattle, everybody gets a premium for their cattle.~~~~ To paraphrase you----------BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.

Our cattle have Man ID but voluntary age verification. Cargill is paying $20 premium for age verification and we can do that just by registering that date to our M'ID tag records. The packers can access the age of the animal but not the previous owners. That info is held for CFIA incase of disease .

Wow!! This is obviously a situation that will not continue long. If you can get age verification just by registering the birthdate to the tag ID and it pays $20 a head to do it, Why isn't every Canadian rancher doing it? Are they all economically challenged?

Next year you'll get a $20 discount for NOT doing it.

 

[Econ101]

Why Mandatory EID?
Ten different owners brought 1 single cow to the sale barn for auction.
Of the 10 cows 6 had EID tags.
All of the single cows were put together in 1 pen, but they were sold individually.
Sixty days later 4 of the 10 cows came down with a serious disease.
Only six of the 10 cows had trace-back movement records.
Only 1 of the ten cows had not been sold since the auction.
4 cows went to producers who do not use EID, and had already sold them.
4 cows went to producers who failed to report movement information to the database
(Only had them a week, not worth the bother)
1 cow was put out to pasture with 60 steers that are now at a feedlot without EID tags.

50% of all of the steers living at the feedlot die before the source pen can be found.
30% of all of the cows who came into contact with the 10 original cows are dead

The producer who did not use EID saved a few bucks on tags, but in turn totally wiped out the producer who voluntarily used EID tags.

Are you sure they won't hurt anyone but themselves if they don't use EID tags?

Just a couple of points here, as this isn't my argument (although I do see where it is going to benefit packers over producers).

If manditory ID stops at the packer, what good is it to the consumer? Since consumers are the place where all the money comes from, why are they not in the information loop? Why make cattle producers keep these kind of records and then stop at the packer's door? Why give packer lawyers more info to go after producers? Why not give consumers the ability to choose quality based on prior experience?

Aren't we supposed to be stopping diseases before they infect the North American herd? Quarentines are always hard on those being quarentined. These are supposed to be able to stop diseases from reaching the point where mID would be needed and other costly steps are taken. With open borders the level of action from the respective countries is important. They both have to be willing to "take the bull by the horns" to stop these diseases at the door(quarentine or isolation does not have to be an international boundry) because of the costs of not doing this. I think Canada and the U.S. can get together on this, if the govts. were willing to instead of allowing big monied interests playing producers in one country against another for the benefit of themselves. I remember some of the work done on halting bangs and other diseases.

By the U.S. government (and Canadian?) governments keeping control of the Western blot test and keeping truth away from the international markets, we have all credibility with the Japanese and other markets on BSE. If Senators have to "strong arm" the Japanese to open their markets again to beef without allowing deals like Creekstone, what have we gained in international relations?

Being a bully only lasts so long. When you push around enough people, you start to lose your power to be a bully. The current politicians are starting to understand that but I am afraid we will see more problems before it gets better.

From a practical standpoint, WHAT DISEASES ASIDE FROM BSE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IN THE NORTH AMERICAN HERD? Can we not take care of these through border control, quarentine and testing?

 

[usa beef]

We already have a Federal ID program for a large portion of the US bovine herd in the Brucellosis program. In many states, we also have a State ID program using hot iron brands to back up to the program on ID'ing females.

Steel, individual ID tags that are applied by state licensed vetrinarians.

I participate, I pay for it, and the regulatory agencies keep the info confidential.

If there is a problem, it probably can be chased down in minutes/hours.

The majority of the cowherd is identified. My steers leave the ranch under individual affadavits and brand inspections.

All the rest of the ID program is a big RIP OFF. Companies/Organizations looking to incrementally line their pockets at the producer's expense.

 

[Karl]

All the rest of the ID program is a big RIP OFF. Companies/Organizations looking to incrementally line their pockets at the producer's expense.

Yes, will the national I.D. system end up like this. I refuse to line the pokets of the bastards who are'nt out there raising the cattle like all of us producers who work damn hard to make a profit.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

All the rest of the ID program is a big RIP OFF. Companies/Organizations looking to incrementally line their pockets at the producer's expense.

Yes, will the national I.D. system end up like this. I refuse to line the pokets of the bastards who are'nt out there raising the cattle like all of us producers who work damn hard to make a profit.

Or you don't want to take responsibility for your own cattle.

 

[Manitoba_Rancher]

I'll just take one so that I can illustrate your level of thinking. If there was a premium being paid for black cattle, then the USDA decreed that everybody must raise black cattle, would there still be a premium for black cattle?

NO. The supply would exceed the demand.

If 100% of cattle are source verified, would there be a premium paid for it?

This is kindergarten economics. Think about it.

If everybody sells source verified cattle, everybody gets a premium for their cattle.~~~~ To paraphrase you----------BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.

Our cattle have Man ID but voluntary age verification. Cargill is paying $20 premium for age verification and we can do that just by registering that date to our M'ID tag records. The packers can access the age of the animal but not the previous owners. That info is held for CFIA incase of disease .

Wow!! This is obviously a situation that will not continue long. If you can get age verification just by registering the birthdate to the tag ID and it pays $20 a head to do it, Why isn't every Canadian rancher doing it? Are they all economically challenged?

Next year you'll get a $20 discount for NOT doing it.

OCM: You dont have a clue.. :dunce: .. its working up here and if you think your brand inspections and affidavids are better than so be it. Canada is way ahead with our way to track and ID cattle.

 

[mrj]

Not one of you has mentioned Foot and Mouth disease in cattle. How many other costly cattle diseases are out there that could quickly devastate our cattle herds? Don't you care that it could very easily introduced into US cattle herds? Or that accidental introduction in these days of so many people traveling the world?

Bringing a disease in with imported cattle is sure not the easiest or most likely way for a serious disease to be introduced into the US cattle herd.

Too many people focus on BSE as if that were the worst thing that could happen. It is not transferrable between one cow and another by contact.

BSE is just about the least of my worries. Itis very rare as shown by the US protocol for testing which was designed to find BSE if even an extremely low number of cases existed per million head of cattle, by TESTING CATTLE MOST LIKELY TO BE SYMPTOMATIC. We have a pretty darn good record, to date, and the testing protocol is nearly completed.

MRJ

 

[ocm]

Our cattle have Man ID but voluntary age verification. Cargill is paying $20 premium for age verification and we can do that just by registering that date to our M'ID tag records. The packers can access the age of the animal but not the previous owners. That info is held for CFIA incase of disease .

Wow!! This is obviously a situation that will not continue long. If you can get age verification just by registering the birthdate to the tag ID and it pays $20 a head to do it, Why isn't every Canadian rancher doing it? Are they all economically challenged?

Next year you'll get a $20 discount for NOT doing it.

OCM: You dont have a clue.. :dunce: .. its working up here and if you think your brand inspections and affidavids are better than so be it. Canada is way ahead with our way to track and ID cattle.

What's your tag retention rate?

 

[ocm]

Not one of you has mentioned Foot and Mouth disease in cattle. How many other costly cattle diseases are out there that could quickly devastate our cattle herds? Don't you care that it could very easily introduced into US cattle herds? Or that accidental introduction in these days of so many people traveling the world?

Bringing a disease in with imported cattle is sure not the easiest or most likely way for a serious disease to be introduced into the US cattle herd.

Too many people focus on BSE as if that were the worst thing that could happen. It is not transferrable between one cow and another by contact.

BSE is just about the least of my worries. Itis very rare as shown by the US protocol for testing which was designed to find BSE if even an extremely low number of cases existed per million head of cattle, by TESTING CATTLE MOST LIKELY TO BE SYMPTOMATIC. We have a pretty darn good record, to date, and the testing protocol is nearly completed.

MRJ

We talked to our state vet specifically about Foot & Mouth and Animal ID. He said the truth is that F & M spreads so fast that individual ID won't do much. The state vets office would draw a circle around the point of infection with a radius of 150 miles and stop all cattle movement within that circle, then start clearing the herds. Individual ID is almost worthless for Foot & Mouth, according to him.

He thought the current brand inspection, ownership transfer, tracking program is adequate. Do you have anything from the USDA (like a study) that shows that current disease control programs in individual states are inadequate, or is that just a myth you are helping to propagate?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Wow!! This is obviously a situation that will not continue long. If you can get age verification just by registering the birthdate to the tag ID and it pays $20 a head to do it, Why isn't every Canadian rancher doing it? Are they all economically challenged?

Next year you'll get a $20 discount for NOT doing it.

OCM: You dont have a clue.. :dunce: .. its working up here and if you think your brand inspections and affidavids are better than so be it. Canada is way ahead with our way to track and ID cattle.

What's your tag retention rate?

So far I haven't found one that has lost a RFID tag. The older tags did have problems but still were better then not haveing any tags.

 

[Manitoba_Rancher]

Wow!! This is obviously a situation that will not continue long. If you can get age verification just by registering the birthdate to the tag ID and it pays $20 a head to do it, Why isn't every Canadian rancher doing it? Are they all economically challenged?

Next year you'll get a $20 discount for NOT doing it.

OCM: You dont have a clue.. :dunce: .. its working up here and if you think your brand inspections and affidavids are better than so be it. Canada is way ahead with our way to track and ID cattle.

What's your tag retention rate?

We ve found that we have a 99% retention rate with the new RFID tags. Better than the old dangle tags! Better find a new subject OCM cause your losing this battle :lol2:

 

[Anonymous]

I'll just take one so that I can illustrate your level of thinking. If there was a premium being paid for black cattle, then the USDA decreed that everybody must raise black cattle, would there still be a premium for black cattle?

NO. The supply would exceed the demand.

If 100% of cattle are source verified, would there be a premium paid for it?

This is kindergarten economics. Think about it.

If everybody sells source verified cattle, everybody gets a premium for their cattle.~~~~ To paraphrase you----------BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.

If the consumer is williing to pay more for source verified cattle EVEN IF ALL THE CATTLE ARE SOURCE VERIFIED, is that not a premium over non source verified cattle?? Did the value of source verification to the consumer somehow disappear since everyone was forced to do it???

If all cattle are source verified that doesn't remove the value of source verified cattle to the consumer over non source verified cattle.

That's like saying since all the packers are paying premiums for CAB there is no longer a premium for CAB from certain packers over those packers who did not pay premiums for CAB. How stupid!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA is right!


For the record, I am opposed to Mandatory ID but only because the free enterprise system can drive this better than the government. Just like your beloved flawed, unenforceable "M"COOL law to save consumers from themselves.

If consumers are willing to pay more for source verified beef, then the packers will pay premiums for source verified cattle. Those who do not want to source verify their cattle should not have to and those cattle can sell accordingly.

LONG LIVE THE FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM. Nothing weeds out the blamers quicker than suffering the consequences of their blaming actions.


~SH~

 

[Econ101]

I'll just take one so that I can illustrate your level of thinking. If there was a premium being paid for black cattle, then the USDA decreed that everybody must raise black cattle, would there still be a premium for black cattle?

NO. The supply would exceed the demand.

If 100% of cattle are source verified, would there be a premium paid for it?

This is kindergarten economics. Think about it.

If everybody sells source verified cattle, everybody gets a premium for their cattle.~~~~ To paraphrase you----------BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.

If the consumer is williing to pay more for source verified cattle EVEN IF ALL THE CATTLE ARE SOURCE VERIFIED, is that not a premium over non source verified cattle?? Did the value of source verification to the consumer somehow disappear since everyone was forced to do it???

If all cattle are source verified that doesn't remove the value of source verified cattle to the consumer over non source verified cattle.

That's like saying since all the packers are paying premiums for CAB there is no longer a premium for CAB from certain packers over those packers who did not pay premiums for CAB. How stupid!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA is right!


For the record, I am opposed to Mandatory ID but only because the free enterprise system can drive this better than the government. Just like your beloved flawed, unenforceable "M"COOL law to save consumers from themselves.

If consumers are willing to pay more for source verified beef, then the packers will pay premiums for source verified cattle. Those who do not want to source verify their cattle should not have to and those cattle can sell accordingly.

LONG LIVE THE FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM. Nothing weeds out the blamers quicker than suffering the consequences of their blaming actions.


~SH~

Consumers are also willing to pay for regulatory agencies that stop fraud and help keep our food supply safe. That does not stop the "free enterprise system". It enhances it. Cattle prices are high today---AND YOUR HERO AGMAN ALREADY ADMITTED THAT THE LARGEST REASON FOR AN INCREASE IN PRICE WAS DUE TO LOWER SUPPLY---and that was a reaction of supply in the long run to price signals as well as the USDA closing the border (rcalf did not close the border, the USDA did). The Canadian producers got shafted so that Tyson could make more money in poultry and pork with their supply managment being coordinated with tight supplies in beef. Tight packer margins in cattle now allow companies like Tyson to "subsidize" their packing facilities with their poultry business and run out more competitors out of the packing business as some of the Canadians have pointed out. Those packing plants without chicken and pork money rolling in are at a serious economic disadvantage.

The tables are about to turn and do the same thing in poultry to the guys who will not collude in the poultry business.

 

[Anonymous]

Conman: "Consumers are also willing to pay for regulatory agencies that stop fraud and help keep our food supply safe. That does not stop the "free enterprise system". It enhances it. Cattle prices are high today---AND YOUR HERO AGMAN ALREADY ADMITTED THAT THE LARGEST REASON FOR AN INCREASE IN PRICE WAS DUE TO LOWER SUPPLY---and that was a reaction of supply in the long run to price signals as well as the USDA closing the border (rcalf did not close the border, the USDA did)."

You don't know what the hell you are talking about Conman. You just make statements that sound good to you that you can't support with any factual data. You're nothing but a phony.

There is no proof of fraud. Pickett proved nothing! THEY LOST!

Cattle prices are high today due to supplies AND DEMAND! You were the idiot that thought supply was the only factor that affected cattle prices. Agman knows that demand played a role in current cattle prices and stated so. Funny how you quote Agman when you think it supports your "THEORY" at the time and you can't even quote him accurately.

R-CALF filed their original case with USDA that kept the border closed until it was sorted out. R-CALF even takes credit for keeping the border closed. Are you saying that R-CALF is lying about keeping the border closed? Yeh, duck and dodge that one too you slime ball.

Conman: "The Canadian producers got shafted so that Tyson could make more money in poultry and pork with their supply managment being coordinated with tight supplies in beef. Tight packer margins in cattle now allow companies like Tyson to "subsidize" their packing facilities with their poultry business and run out more competitors out of the packing business as some of the Canadians have pointed out. Those packing plants without chicken and pork money rolling in are at a serious economic disadvantage."

Another baseless conspiracy theory unsupported by fact. Total bullsh*t!



~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Conman: "Consumers are also willing to pay for regulatory agencies that stop fraud and help keep our food supply safe. That does not stop the "free enterprise system". It enhances it. Cattle prices are high today---AND YOUR HERO AGMAN ALREADY ADMITTED THAT THE LARGEST REASON FOR AN INCREASE IN PRICE WAS DUE TO LOWER SUPPLY---and that was a reaction of supply in the long run to price signals as well as the USDA closing the border (rcalf did not close the border, the USDA did)."

You don't know what the hell you are talking about Conman. You just make statements that sound good to you that you can't support with any factual data. You're nothing but a phony.

There is no proof of fraud. Pickett proved nothing! THEY LOST!

Cattle prices are high today due to supplies AND DEMAND! You were the idiot that thought supply was the only factor that affected cattle prices. Agman knows that demand played a role in current cattle prices and stated so. Funny how you quote Agman when you think it supports your "THEORY" at the time and you can't even quote him accurately.

R-CALF filed their original case with USDA that kept the border closed until it was sorted out. R-CALF even takes credit for keeping the border closed. Are you saying that R-CALF is lying about keeping the border closed? Yeh, duck and dodge that one too you slime ball.

Conman: "The Canadian producers got shafted so that Tyson could make more money in poultry and pork with their supply managment being coordinated with tight supplies in beef. Tight packer margins in cattle now allow companies like Tyson to "subsidize" their packing facilities with their poultry business and run out more competitors out of the packing business as some of the Canadians have pointed out. Those packing plants without chicken and pork money rolling in are at a serious economic disadvantage."

Another baseless conspiracy theory unsupported by fact. Total bullsh*t!



~SH~

Are you denying that Agman admitted that supply was the main factor in higher prices? Even with the amount he said was due to an increase in "demand" was shown to also have components of cross elasticity due to poultry supply being depressed. His increase in price due to "demand shift" did not take this into effect. Tyson, to a large degree, had a hand in the reduction of supply in poultry; they are the largest producers, you know.

How long did the USDA keep the border closed?

How long did rcalf keep the border closed?

Remeber, you can recently be quoted on this one.

 

[Anonymous]

Conman: "Are you denying that Agman admitted that supply was the main factor in higher prices?"

Are you denying that Agman mentioned the importance of demand in current cattle prices?

Conman: "Even with the amount he said was due to an increase in "demand" was shown to also have components of cross elasticity due to poultry supply being depressed."

WHICH IS PART OF THE DEMAND EQUATION YOU MORON.

A decrease in poultry supplies has nothing to do with cattle supplies.

Conman: "His increase in price due to "demand shift" did not take this into effect."

ANOTHER DAMN LIE!

Agman has the best competitive meat demand tracking information available.

You proved yourself a phony again.

You do nothing but a great diservice to this forum with your constant lies. Your worse than Callicrate.

Conman: "Tyson, to a large degree, had a hand in the reduction of supply in poultry; they are the largest producers, you know."

Hahaha! Whatever! I'm casting pearls before swine when I respond to something that stupid.

Conman: "How long did the USDA keep the border closed?

How long did rcalf keep the border closed?"

Do your own damn research.



~SH~