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Weighing cows

G

Grassfarmer

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
998
Location
Central Alberta, Canada
I'd be interested to know how many of the purebred guys on here weigh their cows. I bought my first weigh scale back in '85 in Scotland because I was starting into purebred Simmentals in a small way and at that time it was compulsory to weight record bulls to register them. I didn't like that rule as I felt it put undue emphasis on weight gain and encouraged heavy feeding. Over the years we have always weighed the calves at weaning and beyond and find the scale a useful tool. We haven't weighed the cows regularly but when I do I tell you it shocks me - cows are way heavier than we expect. Given that frame creep and increased weight is the order of the day in most, if not all, purebred breeds perhaps there is a case for having compulsory weight recording of cows, allied to a condition score, before you can register the calves? Given all the measurement and science that supposedly goes into EPDs isn't rather contradictory that calves can still be marketed as having xxxlb weaning weight out of a "small/moderate frame cow" that could in fact be anywhere from 1200 to 2000lbs because she has never been weighed? Increased production without any measure of the cost to keep the factory running (which is directly influenced by the size and feed consumption of the cow herd) is meaningless to me and I would suggest detrimental to both individual breeds and the whole beef industry.
 
Well with Simmentals I didn't know one would encourage anything BUT heavy feeding!!

And before you get all defensive, I am speaking from experience!

In all fairness though, I know the breed has moderated its size and that they are different today than even 10 -15 years ago when they were my breed of choice.
 
Well I got off topic immediately. I think you have a valid point because our big framed, often showiest cows are not too often the ones that wean the biggest calf. Even though we aren't purebred, the same principles are at work.
 
No problems burnt, I haven't had purebred simmies for 10 years now - I still think they are an excellent breed but they don't fit my conditions here as well as the breed I use now. You say the Simmental breed has moderated it's size in recent years - but have they? I hear lots of breeds and breeders claim that but how do they know if they don't weigh their cows? Most continue to buy ever larger growth genetics and claim they are moderating size - seems like a case of having your cake and eating it.
 
Oh I think so. There was a time when they had to put bigger and higher doors into the sales ring just to let the Simmies into the ring! Well now that's a serious exaggeration, but you get my point.

I haven't seen nearly as many tall leggy Simmies as there were at one time. Some guys are putting some really showy Simmie groups into our local sales ring for the past few years.

Calves that sell right up alongside some of the traditionally easier fleshing types. And certainly better than some other types.
 
It is just another tool in your bag to examine cattle when making management decisions. In our arid climate, bigger framed cows fall off quicker and need a lot more input which isnt always available. But some cows are easy keepers regardless of frame score. We would like all our cows to top out at 1100 and raise a 650 pound calf at weaning time. Doesnt always happen but we try. :D
 
Many breed associations collect and use mature weight data. I never liked the mandatory approach for weights or measures. Many an animal can be weighed without a scale if that is a "mandatory" requirement.
Since this has taken a bit of a SM twist I can fill in a bit of the details in Canada. Performance recording is optional, but if it is done must be done on all cows in inventory or the data is not sent to the genetic evaluation.
As a breed they record the traditional weight data, but also calving ease, calf vigour, mothering ability, udder scores, temperament, cow weight -precalving and weaning, body condition score, ultrasound, breeding record, and heifer pregnancy rate (on all heifers not just registered ones), frame score, etc.
Like most other breeds with EPD they use a multi-trait animal model for their evaluation with direct phenotypic comparisons made only between animals in the same contemporary group.
 
I would use your cull cow weights as a guage to where your at. I would also ask yourself if your happy with where your at. As a purebred breeder you can't be everything to everyone. If you have know idea where your going how will you know when you get there. Most people get more out of pride than profit they may wean 700# calve but at what cost. They may also have little cow's with 400# calves and to that what amount of profit is there in 400# calves.
Middle of the road is where I want to be.
 
Lots of interesting comments and things to ponder.

Burnt - you say there are less tall leggy Simmies than there were at one time. Has the move to less leggy types reduced weights or only reduced leg length? I know the thickest, deepest bodied cattle we have are the ones that constantly surprise us with how much they weigh.

Leanin' H - on the same topic you say the bigger framed cattle fall off quicker. Do you consider the bigger framed cattle to be automatically the heavier cattle too? How close to a 650lb calf do you average out of an 1100lb cow in that arid climate? and at what age?

RSL, I take your point about mandatory and people weighing without a scale. In reality I believe that is widespread on the calf birth weights issue already. I am interested to hear that some breeds do have mature weight records - could you provide some or show me where to find the info as I would find that interesting.

Denny, I used to use my cull weights as a guide then actually weighed a bunch two days before shipping - the auction pay weights ranged from 100-150lbs less than they weighed on farm. I certainly agree with your statement that "Most people get more out of pride than profit they may wean 700# calve but at what cost." That to me is the problem with almost the entire industry.

High Plains - agreed the middle of the road seems a good place to be but how do you know where that is? The road seems to have been transformed from a two lane highway into an interstate in the last ten years and before that it was a cart trail - does keeping in the middle of the road not just keep you in the middle of the pack and if the pack is getting constantly heavier you are too? Wouldn't weighing your cows now and comparing that to weights from 10 years ago give you a better guide?

Not saying there is anything wrong with lighter or heavier cows or heading your ship in either of these directions. Just asking if the purebred industry shouldn't be getting some real data on cow weight so they know where they are at on that front.
 
Denny said:
I would use your cull cow weights as a guage to where your at. I would also ask yourself if your happy with where your at. As a purebred breeder you can't be everything to everyone. If you have know idea where your going how will you know when you get there. Most people get more out of pride than profit they may wean 700# calve but at what cost. They may also have little cow's with 400# calves and to that what amount of profit is there in 400# calves.
Middle of the road is where I want to be.
Click to expand...

Our part of the country has a lot of public lease land- BLM and State- mostly administered by the BLM with certain grazing allotments given for number of cattle a pasture/area will handle-- AUM's...

And over the last few years the BLM and range management folks have been looking at/studying giving out those allotments depending on the average size cow you run- that way allowing those that run smaller (900lb to 1200lb) cattle the ability to run more than those running the 1400 to 1800+ lb cows....

Not sure if this will come to be- but they told one of the local grazing association managers that they would determine the average cow weight by the weight of the cull cows sold/shipped in the fall....
 
This ranch has existed for 130+ years. I really like this old squeeze chute which shows just how cattle size has changed here. I don't think some of our calves would fit into it :D . Like Grassfarmer, I'm a little shocked at the size of some of our cull cows. We've worked hard on reducing frame while maintaining production. Our younger cull cows (4 year-olds), with genetics we've selected for, have averaged around 1130-1150 in the fall. We still have some older cows which easily go over 1400 :shock: .

Since I didn't feed my yearlings too well last winter, I'm wondering if it will make their metabolism more efficient... like you see in yo-yo dieters who gain back weight faster after each crash diet they try. The calves were never thin, but they sure didn't get fed anything much extra. Any ideas? :D

BullTurn-Out2008021-1.jpg


BullTesting2008019-1.jpg
 
We used to do it but thereare more fun ways to waste time-back when I had to expound and crunch numbers to validate my management decisions-we used to weight every coe and every calf-figure out 5 of body weight weaned-ranged from 27% to 67%-after pondering the situation I gathered that I could of probably figured out who the big cow with the dink calf was just by looking lol.if your cull cows are weighing 150 pounds more at home than at your inspected sale barn scale either your scale is off or your auction mart crew is pretty westy. You want to make a big framed cowherd more efficuent-feed a ration for 12 weight cows and sooner than you think that's what you'll have left. treat your replacement heifers as a commodity not prom queens and things moderate really fast.
 
NR, I'm not that keen that I work out every cow/calf weaning percentage either but once in a while I think it might be good to do some spot checks.
My initial reaction with the cull cows was the same as yours but I've been told by a number of people that this is general. Can anyone else who has actually weighed cows at home before shipping confirm or deny this finding?
I think we are feeding suitable rations for what we are trying to achieve - our heifer calves never get grain and are grown out slowly. I weighed a couple the other day at 850lbs - they were May born and will calf late April/ May next year. The spread on the whole heifer bunch will likely be 800lb to 900lb currently and they are in good condition. Cows winter graze as long as possible on rough, poorer quality pastures.

As you winter your cows in an even colder area while they are still milking for their calves wouldn't the rations you provide be more inclined to increase cow weights than mine? Or is the fact that they milk for their calves over the winter preventing them from achieving the weights they are genetically predisposed to reach? What age does a cow stop getting heavier at anyway? - I'm inclined to think it is way past their generally accepted "age of maturity"
 
Grassfarmer said:
Lots of interesting comments and things to ponder.

Burnt - you say there are less tall leggy Simmies than there were at one time. Has the move to less leggy types reduced weights or only reduced leg length? I know the thickest, deepest bodied cattle we have are the ones that constantly surprise us with how much they weigh.

Leanin' H - on the same topic you say the bigger framed cattle fall off quicker. Do you consider the bigger framed cattle to be automatically the heavier cattle too? How close to a 650lb calf do you average out of an 1100lb cow in that arid climate? and at what age?

RSL, I take your point about mandatory and people weighing without a scale. In reality I believe that is widespread on the calf birth weights issue already. I am interested to hear that some breeds do have mature weight records - could you provide some or show me where to find the info as I would find that interesting.

Denny, I used to use my cull weights as a guide then actually weighed a bunch two days before shipping - the auction pay weights ranged from 100-150lbs less than they weighed on farm. I certainly agree with your statement that "Most people get more out of pride than profit they may wean 700# calve but at what cost." That to me is the problem with almost the entire industry.

High Plains - agreed the middle of the road seems a good place to be but how do you know where that is? The road seems to have been transformed from a two lane highway into an interstate in the last ten years and before that it was a cart trail - does keeping in the middle of the road not just keep you in the middle of the pack and if the pack is getting constantly heavier you are too? Wouldn't weighing your cows now and comparing that to weights from 10 years ago give you a better guide?

Not saying there is anything wrong with lighter or heavier cows or heading your ship in either of these directions. Just asking if the purebred industry shouldn't be getting some real data on cow weight so they know where they are at on that front.
Click to expand...

Grassfarmer, bigger framed doesn't have to equal heavier cows but it usually does in my experience. Our cattle trail long distances to water as the summer goes on in order to follow the native grass in the passes and on the ridges. Almost all our springs and streams are low in the draws and canyons. Those bigger framed cows really melt where a rangy old Hereford or Angus cross will thrive. Our weaning weights average about 580 unless we are in the midst of a bad drought. That weight is from Late February to March born calves with a mid October weaning date. Our cattle get culled hard for fleshing ability and breed back ability. If a cow can't take care of herself WHILE raising a calf she won't breed right back and she goes down the road. That's why the ideal cow is a little different (or a lot) depending on where you run cows. How many times have you saw a sawed-off bucket headed cow with frozen ears that some folks would dismiss as "Not Ideal" bring home the top calf in the pen at weaning time? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! :wink:
 
Grandad has a scale down the road at his place, and once in awhile I've trailered some down there and checked before taking them to the auction. They usually weigh less at auction than at home - within 50-100lbs - although I've had the odd one heavier at the auction, so I don't raise a fuss.

I want to get our own scale eventually, and be weighing things more often. I watch the weights of our culls real close, and they don't surprise me much anymore. What I have learnt is to keep lightweight culls at home, fatten them on grass and direct market them as sausages and such. Packers don't want cows under 1050lbs here, and they dock them 10-20 cents/lb.

When we used to calve in Feb/March and wean in November, I'd weigh every cow and calf in the fall. The Tarentaise influenced cows were the only group that consistently weaned 50% of their weight, or more, until we got some Highlands. They do it every year. Although, it's like my Dad says teasing me about my little fuzzballs - "50% of d__k-all is still d__k-all!"

I like to weigh cows spring and fall, once in a while, maybe every 3rd year or something. It's interesting to see how much weight a cow will drop raising a calf, and see the correlation to what she raises. I indexed our cows 2 years for weight lost compared to pounds of calf weaned. Kind of a neat statistic.
 
Grassfarmer, on the side topic of Simmies, I think it is quite safe to say that those less leggy Simmies will finish a lot easier than the long legged ones.

Like at 1450 versus 1600+. We did not finish many of ours to heavy weights. My program was to feed a lot of grain corn after weaning and if the veal market was stronger than the beef market, those that showed much flesh at 650 -700 went for veal.

What made a huge difference for us was the Fleck influence. If my memory serves me right, Antonius was the first Fleck I used. His heifers were definitely more moderate than the old type.
 
I have come to the conclusion a few years ago that listing a ww figure without having the cow weight listed too is pretty meaningless, just like listing IMF figures without listing any backfat measurements. It only shows half the equation and that is the output side with little regards to the input side of the net profit equation.

I have been weighing all my cows for the past few years when we do the ultrasound and the vaccination and weighing of the calves. Very few people that I know are weighing cows because they know they have a lot of 1600 plus pound cows and don't want to admit it or they don't want others to know about it. I have been concerned about cow weight for years and have selected bulls accordingly but its hard to make progress when so few are measuring what you are looking for.

I caution people in using the raw data though. If it isn't adjusted for body condition score, using a % ww of cow size is going to give the advantage to the high milking, thinner hided, frailer made cow that in my experience doesn't last all that long in my production system.

We had a Hereford tour here last week. Since we had just weighed and ultrasounded the cows 5 days earlier, I listed the weight of all the cows and the calves too. I had some nice comments about it but I don't think that some of the staus quo big purebred guys were to impressed with my "small" cows.

The larger cow trend is't affecting just the cow sector either. It is affecting the retail side too with too big of carcasses that have too big of cuts of meat.
 
I too, agree.

We have a scale and it's amazing what your cows weigh. I've been
on a 'moderate' kick for years now, and it's beginning to show.
We kept 5 old cows seperate and didn't put them with a bull
because they were crippled a bit and we weighed those cows
the other day. 3 weighed 1500 lbs., one weighed 1300 and one
weighed 1244. The smallest cow had the heaviest calf.
I know the cows that are say, 7 years old do not weigh
what those old cows do--due to moderate selection of bulls.
You have to go back and use some 'older' genetics to get that
done, tho. IMO. I was happy to see ABS offer a son of 707 in
their line-up.

I also know from using our scale that the cows we sell in the
sale ring ALWAYS weigh 100 lbs. less there than they did at home.

Just read an article about how heavy the carcasses are now.
The US is down on cow numbers, but up on carcass weight, so that's
just like adding cows to the inventory of cattle.

It's hard to find truly 'moderate' bulls. There is a correlation of
finished steer size to mature cow weight. I got really scared about
10 years ago when we had a cow that lost a calf due to nitrates. I
insisted on keeping her and running her over because, "it wasn't her
fault" (it's a woman thing :wink: ). Anyhow, that fall she was sooooooo
big that we sold her. She weighed 1800 lbs. Sure, she was on the huge side
in our herd, but if she had the genetics to do that, so did other cows. I didn't like it one bit and that's where we turned the corner to smaller cattle.
 

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