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what a load of crap!!!

N

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
12,247
Location
saskatchewan
Got a catalogue from one of the bigger bull peddlers in our neck of the woods-had a blurb i n their about how to feed yearling bulls-his suggested ration was all the bigh quality hay they could eat plus 1 1/2 percent of body weight in grain-that 21 pounds of grain for a 1400 pound bull-no wonder Angus cattle are losing doability with every generation. Last I checked beef cattle were ruminants or has something changed. Needless to say free whiskey and beef on a bun won't get me to that sale.
 
Well went and looked at our bulls licking snow and living on hay-they won't win any shows but they'll breed a pile of cows-it kind of sucks my bull buyers are still running bulls they bought 8 or 9 years ago-one thing about those little grain pigs they need replacing more often.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Got a catalogue from one of the bigger bull peddlers in our neck of the woods-had a blurb i n their about how to feed yearling bulls-his suggested ration was all the bigh quality hay they could eat plus 1 1/2 percent of body weight in grain-that 21 pounds of grain for a 1400 pound bull-no wonder Angus cattle are losing doability with every generation. Last I checked beef cattle were ruminants or has something changed. Needless to say free whiskey and beef on a bun won't get me to that sale.
Click to expand...

I have had some producers ask me for bulls that got no (or very little) grain during development. I made note of their requests and saved a few back and did just that.

When it came sale time I promoted those grass and hay fed bulls to the hilt. Those bulls brought a few hundred dollars less at the sale because they weren't as fat and sassy.

The guys that want forage fed bulls should buy them some at weaning and develope them themselves. A big fat bull will bring more money every time. What would you have us do?
 
Around here it has alot to do with ultrasound. One way to get your IMF up is to feed corn and plenty of it. And yes they will need to be replaced more often and actual fleshing ability on forage has no way to be measured.
 
Good call Mike bull buyers never want fat bulls but always pick out the bull with the highest gain almost every time. It is the same thing when they ask for a heifer bull they want light birth weight but pass over a good heifer bull because he doesn't have the performance data others have.

have a good one

lazy ace
 
I went to a Genex Beef meeting the other night,they were talking about a bull they had aquired that weaned at over 900#s.Then he states that the calf did'nt make it on grass he had been everything but spoon fed.What good is that?anymore the mindset is "FEEDS THE BREED"
 
Thanks for the insight.

If all of our cattle is fed before harvest, what good does it do to to breed to forage based animals? The calves are being supplemented with milk the first 6-7 months of their lives and are on feed the remainder of their lives. (Usually)

What I'm saying is.......it's hard to breed for calves that do well on feed and hope to get those little small framed foraged based cows out of the same breeding bulls.
 
I know what you are saying Mike. What people say and what they do are two different things. When they get to the sale, bigger is better and it shows with the prices paid.

It's a tough thing to buy a bull that doesn't look or perform at the top. I had to learn that lesson myself. Did a lot of talking about smaller bulls, and the person that I visited with most about it with; we went to a bull sale together. Soon he came over to me and said, "I've watched you and you are in the pens with the biggest and highest performing bulls." We have been so indoctrinated to "bigger is better" it has become second nature.

I never forgot that day.

If you visit with Larry Leonhardt, he says the outlier bulls (performance wise) never produce back to themselves. Cattle breed back to the average of that line of cattle. Being told that, along with advice from a good old cowman that got us started ("go to a good breeder and buy the middle, don't go to a poor breeder and buy the top") is kind of why we buy out of the middle.

We certainly have noticed that these big fat bulls when purchased, are most times the hardest doing that fall. We want a bull that will keep his condition during breeding and we are managing to get that done. We have found in this country those are the bulls that will give you good steers and the best replacements. (Watching other traits for replacements as well, of course.)

If I were in the bull business, I would have to do what sells the best. It will be interesting to see what the buyers of your lesser fed bulls have to say a year from now.

I also saw the 2-year old forage tested bulls Kit Pharo offers for sale and I couldn't buy one of those either. That being said, the folks that have had them in the past are back bidding on them hot and heavy.
 
The cowherd is the factory and in most cases has to function on forages-that old b.s. about feed the crap out of the bulls so you can see how the steers work doesn't wash. Cut a few more bulls and finish them as steers if you want to check performance. Mike maybe your forage fed bulls returned you the same net profit because you didn't have as many dollars in corn stuffed into them. Purebred breeders blowing smoke up each others butt about ranchers will only buy fat bulls is getting pretty old too-I'm heading top a sale next week where the bulls are lean and mean-the Angus will be 200 pounds lighter than most other yearlings and the Hereford two year olds will be 400 pounds shy of the Calgary hogs-this sale despite selling almost exclusively to commercial men will be one of the top sale averages in Canada-unfortunately for me. I've bought a few hundred bulls on order and believe me I never got seduced by 'white muscle'-nothing worse than watching a mollycoddled long yearling stagger in after the summer all ribs and fly bites-his liver like a drunks and his toes all twisted and turned. My hockey players come to training camp without any fat on them-they don't melt away to nothing over the season-bulls are athletes too so why would we want them 2-300 pounds overweight at the start of their season.
 
As with all things there is a balance.

I do feed some grain to my bulls, but my bulls usually are the leanest around for their age. They don't need a diet to get down to breeding shape.

However, without sufficient energy to supply a steady growth rate, fertility is the first function to drop with bulls and cows. Sending out a bull, especially a yearling, that is just frame with no fat is a disaster waiting to happen.

I understand bulls lasting years, mine do as well, and it is frustrating when it takes 5-7 years for a repeat sale. If those guys would pay a premium for years of service on a bull it would help :wink:

There is a difference between feeds, just because a bull has had some grain ( I agree the 1.5% is too much) doesn't mean he has been overfed. It comes down to the whole ration.
 
Well a little grain isn't all bad but conversely a yearling bull fed high quality hay should be able to lay on a bit of cover-enough to get him through a breeding season for sure-we don't need to practice evolution but alot more selection for doability has to start taking place-too many purebred breeders are afraid to stand alone-alot easier to be a sheep and join the bucket/e.p.d race. I've literally visited 100's of herds over the years and the ones that live and die on grass and hay are pretty scarce.
 
Well we raise some purebred Limo bulls, and we too have a problem of them lasting too long, but we have also used some for over 10 years too!! On our place, the only grain breeding animals will ever get is a bit of oats.
 
I bought a yearling bull once, who they bragged on not overfeeding. I put him in the pen with the few cattle I was fattening to butcher, and he went plumb to hell! Not overfeeding, sure they weren't. If you wanted to butcher him! :x
 
Fat bulls are not good breeders....... And that is the bottom line......
Little or no semen, and they go to hell in a hurry. It don't make sense to me. And that is why we don't buy bulls........ Untill these breeders change their feeding practises we will raise our own bulls....
 
It takes a bit of investigation and a little common sence to see who is feeding with a big bucket.

Every purebred breeder says he doesn't overfeed, what else are they going to say? So that is just a dumb question. Ask what they feed, but don't blow a gasket as soon as you hear grain mentioned. Hot alfalfa will grow out the feet on bulls too, not to mention the kidneys.

The breed average for Angus at a year is somewhere around 1100 pounds. It takes some decent nutrition to get that weight, so any bulls over 1100 at a year have been fed really well.

If you are at a sale where ultrasound data is presented, you can guess the feeding. 1/2 inch (12 mm) of backfat is a bull fat enough to slaughter. 1/4 inch is desired to get a better YG, and remember the steers would be about 30% fatter than the bull under the same conditions.

Next is how some are selecting the epd for fat thickness, thinking it leads to easier doing cows. This is not a direct corolation! Fat thickness epds are adjusted to 1 year of age and have nothing to do with a cow's doing ability at maturity. I have daughters of bulls that have moderate gain epds and positive fat thickness epds, they are the hardest doing group of cows I own.

Going back to the way the bulls are fed, show up at feeding time. If the breeder won't tell you exactly what the bulls get, why not? Maybe he fears a bad reaction, but if he knows his ration is not too hot he shouldn't mind at all.

Bulls fed just hay will likely be sorry looking at 1 year compared to grain fed bulls, buyers need to be willing to pay for what they say they want to get sellers to reduce the feed. If you see bulls in that 1100 pound range with "no grain" investigate how that is possible. Maybe bull ration isn't called grain in some places, silage made from grain crops can be high energy, too much protien being fed compensates for lower energy.
 
Good info Jason.

I do know that everybody want their bulls "in their working clothes" until they go to buy them, then they want them "in their go to town clothes". :lol:

If you could look at the guys cows and older bulls, it would tell you a lot, but many times, that isn't practical.

A wise man once said that you shouldn't buy bulls from out of your enviroment. If a ranch has been raising bulls in your enviroment for many years, he probably is raising the kind that will fit you and your ranch. But of course, not always.

At least you can drive over and see how he's feeding them. And what.
 
What I have a problem with is these pb breeders that have these monster calves at weaning time, then say well its all growth and maternal. I call b/s on that. I always see one very prominant World known Charolais breeder that says that, and his calves are on heavy creep feed from the time they hit the ground til the day they are weaned. Then when you read a sale book with his bulls in it, they say these bulls have not had any creep. What happened to the day when the mother cow raised the calf and the grass helped with the job. Northern Rancher have you seen any of this type of deal going on up there?
 
Jason said:
It takes a bit of investigation and a little common sence to see who is feeding with a big bucket.

Every purebred breeder says he doesn't overfeed, what else are they going to say? So that is just a dumb question. Ask what they feed, but don't blow a gasket as soon as you hear grain mentioned. Hot alfalfa will grow out the feet on bulls too, not to mention the kidneys.

The breed average for Angus at a year is somewhere around 1100 pounds. It takes some decent nutrition to get that weight, so any bulls over 1100 at a year have been fed really well.

If you are at a sale where ultrasound data is presented, you can guess the feeding. 1/2 inch (12 mm) of backfat is a bull fat enough to slaughter. 1/4 inch is desired to get a better YG, and remember the steers would be about 30% fatter than the bull under the same conditions.

Next is how some are selecting the epd for fat thickness, thinking it leads to easier doing cows. This is not a direct corolation! Fat thickness epds are adjusted to 1 year of age and have nothing to do with a cow's doing ability at maturity. I have daughters of bulls that have moderate gain epds and positive fat thickness epds, they are the hardest doing group of cows I own.

Going back to the way the bulls are fed, show up at feeding time. If the breeder won't tell you exactly what the bulls get, why not? Maybe he fears a bad reaction, but if he knows his ration is not too hot he shouldn't mind at all.

Bulls fed just hay will likely be sorry looking at 1 year compared to grain fed bulls, buyers need to be willing to pay for what they say they want to get sellers to reduce the feed. If you see bulls in that 1100 pound range with "no grain" investigate how that is possible. Maybe bull ration isn't called grain in some places, silage made from grain crops can be high energy, too much protien being fed compensates for lower energy.
Click to expand...
Funny you mentioned 1100lbs. I ran 3 bulls in with a small bunch of feeder steers this winter. I sold the feeder steers and weighed the bulls. One angus bull (red and probably no more than a 5.5 frame) weighed 1100. I've had him sold to a friend since he was born so weight made no difference to me. He was a year old the last of Feb. The calves were on fescue pastrue and distillers grain (5lbs per head per day.) and mineral. The bunch gained 2.58 lbs per day since Nov1.
 

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