What is a "good" cow?

[Dylan Biggs]

Hey NR just a few thoughts in response to the question "what is a good cow", that came up in the emotionally charged discussion that the Fraser cow photos stirred up.
This is what I call a good cow in my herd. She gets pregnant at 15 to 16 months of age, and continues to re-breed annually within our 48 day breeding season until at least nine or ten years of age. She never requires assistance calving as we range calve unless she malpresents, at which point we will help her if we happen to find her in time. She mothers and nurses her calves to weaning with out assistance. Her calves consistently preform within their contemporary group norm that allows them to be marketed without being cut back and discounted. Her feet never require trimming and her udder remains sound eg no large long teats or broken down swing bags. Her disposition allows us to handle her with out a fuss. The only exception being at calving she can express her maternal concern over her new calf as long as she doesn,t attempt to kill us or her calf in the process. She is able to do all of this with out preferential treatment or management practices. Beauty is as beauty Does. That what comes to me at any rate.

 

[Northern Rancher]

That should kind of work every where. Old Denzil Sutton one of Canada's pionerer poled charolais breeders summed it up well. A good cow is like a girl appt. renter-she pays her board and you don't notice she's around! Good cows seem simple to replicate but it can be hard to do-all bulls won't move you ahead hate ones that make you basck peddle. I've made more poor breeding decisions thgan Tiger Woods it seems.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Read your pm's lol.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

yeh if you find a bull that works you better get as many bred to him as possible. You can't use the same bull forever and any mating is a roll of the genetic dice with very few guarantees. When you identify a bad bull in your herd bull battery hopefully it's sooner than later. I had that Daquante Ext derivative I used for the R and S calf crops and I am culling already because of long and crossing toes front and rear. Thank goodness they weren't all bad. The thing was that his feet were good and they stayed good until I shipped him. You have to roll the dice if you want to keep playing. For sure though the more homework the better before making a decision. Risk management wasn't on Tigers mind.

 

[Soapweed]

Hey NR just a few thoughts in response to the question "what is a good cow", that came up in the emotionally charged discussion that the Fraser cow photos stirred up.
This is what I call a good cow in my herd. She gets pregnant at 15 to 16 months of age, and continues to re-breed annually within our 48 day breeding season until at least nine or ten years of age. She never requires assistance calving as we range calve unless she malpresents, at which point we will help her if we happen to find her in time. She mothers and nurses her calves to weaning with out assistance. Her calves consistently preform within their contemporary group norm that allows them to be marketed without being cut back and discounted. Her feet never require trimming and her udder remains sound eg no large long teats or broken down swing bags. Her disposition allows us to handle her with out a fuss. The only exception being at calving she can express her maternal concern over her new calf as long as she doesn,t attempt to kill us or her calf in the process. She is able to do all of this with out preferential treatment or management practices. Beauty is as beauty Does. That what comes to me at any rate.

It can't be summed up any better than that. I totally agree on all points.

That should kind of work every where. Old Denzil Sutton one of Canada's pionerer poled charolais breeders summed it up well. A good cow is like a girl appt. renter-she pays her board and you don't notice she's around! Good cows seem simple to replicate but it can be hard to do-all bulls won't move you ahead hate ones that make you basck peddle. I've made more poor breeding decisions thgan Tiger Woods it seems.

Risk management wasn't on Tigers mind.

I think Tiger got "risk" and "risque" mixed up. :wink:

 

[Denny]

Your definition is right on. I was on another site where a guy was talking about his old cow which was a 2000 model. My first thought was she's not that old.My oldest cows are 97 models right now we culled our last 93 and 95 models last year.I bet I've got 40 cows that are 9 and older out of 170 cows I don't think thats to bad. Our area must be easy on feet because I've never had one trimmed or needed one trimmed. We winter cows on an 80 acre parcel I feed hay the cows all walk out to where I'm feeding 1/4 to a 1/2 mile walk. Then I get the silage they normally walk up to the gate before I get done mixing it after that they walk back out to where the hay was fed as thats where the silage gets fed also. I'm a true believer in making cows walk exercise is crucial to the overall health to the cows in my opinion.Since 95 I've boughten 8 bulls everything else is home raised. Right now we have 9 bulls one of those being purchased. One of our best bulls was a show bull bought at the NWSS as a 2 year old butter ball fat his last natural calf crop was last spring He was 10 and shipped more on the fact that he was getting impossible to use. Most of the herd are his offspring many were line bred and father daughter matings with no ill effects.. I truly believe the best bulls for my herd will originate in my region. Each region of the country have different obsticals to over come and every bull will create cattle best suited for the region from which his genetics were evolved on over time.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Denny I have to agree-lets both mark our calendars.

 

[per]

Totally agree with both. I would like to add or emphasize they must do everything above while doing the work of foraging in tough conditions without loosing undue condition.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Denny, I agree about the walking being good for cows, once we start winter feeding our cows they walk anywhere from 1 to 1 and 3/4 miles a day. I also agree with the home raised bulls approach providing a person is willing to go to the time and effort to raise them. As far as home raised bulls last years bull battery here was 100% home raised. Not that I am totally opposed to buying the odd bull, or using some A.I. but one thing I know is I can't buy bulls that I know any more about than my own and they are more adapted to my management and my environment than any bulls I can buy. The more I have used my own bulls over the years, I started using my own bulls in the mid eighties, the happier I am with my calves and my replacements. I have done a fair bit of AI over the years up to 400 in a season and some bulls I would use again but some were a disaster. One thing that makes me scratch my head is how reluctant many purebred breeders are to use their own bulls. Assuming the bulls they are using from these major studs are as good as the promotional material claims then retaining and using a son or two should be no problem. But then again it is only human to suffer the "grass is greener" psychosis.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Totally agree with both. I would like to add or emphasize they must do everything above while doing the work of foraging in tough conditions without loosing undue condition.

I thought about that and relatively speaking I would agree but by the same token I have had some cows over the years that I always judged to be to thin but they always re-bred on time and raised good calves. I remember an old cow we had #109 born in born in 1981 she was an Angus Braunvieh cross not a big cow but you could honestly describe her as a cow that wore her working clothes very tight. Every year I was sure she would come in open but that didn't happen till she was 14. Now I am not saying that I want a herd of hard doing cows. But I have culled plenty of easy fleshing cows that didn't rebreed also. In fact the easiest fleshing cow I ever had on this place only raised four calves before failing to rebreed. What I conclude to date is that there may be a danger in assuming a very high correlation between ability to maintain BCS and fertility. Assuming that fertility automatically tags along with fleshing ability might get us into trouble.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Hey NR just a few thoughts in response to the question "what is a good cow", that came up in the emotionally charged discussion that the Fraser cow photos stirred up.
This is what I call a good cow in my herd. She gets pregnant at 15 to 16 months of age, and continues to re-breed annually within our 48 day breeding season until at least nine or ten years of age. She never requires assistance calving as we range calve unless she malpresents, at which point we will help her if we happen to find her in time. She mothers and nurses her calves to weaning with out assistance. Her calves consistently preform within their contemporary group norm that allows them to be marketed without being cut back and discounted. Her feet never require trimming and her udder remains sound eg no large long teats or broken down swing bags. Her disposition allows us to handle her with out a fuss. The only exception being at calving she can express her maternal concern over her new calf as long as she doesn,t attempt to kill us or her calf in the process. She is able to do all of this with out preferential treatment or management practices. Beauty is as beauty Does. That what comes to me at any rate.

It can't be summed up any better than that. I totally agree on all points.

That should kind of work every where. Old Denzil Sutton one of Canada's pionerer poled charolais breeders summed it up well. A good cow is like a girl appt. renter-she pays her board and you don't notice she's around! Good cows seem simple to replicate but it can be hard to do-all bulls won't move you ahead hate ones that make you basck peddle. I've made more poor breeding decisions thgan Tiger Woods it seems.

Risk management wasn't on Tigers mind.

I think Tiger got "risk" and "risque" mixed up. :wink:

No question, needed more than a 4 wire fence to keep the Tiger at home

 

[Grassfarmer]

Your definitions of a good cow would be hard to argue with but the challenge as NR says is "Good cows seem simple to replicate but it can be hard to do"
I personally think the purebred industry is starting to change and increasing numbers of breeders are looking to close their herds, retain their own bulls due to fears of genetic abnormalities in some breeds as well as increasing disappointment with the results of bought in bulls. I think people have always had disappointments over the years with some of their bought in genetics but tended to move quietly on without saying too much about them in public. Maybe they thought their cows were the problem - in this day and age of internet discussion the covers have been pulled back on the issue of how good genetics really are and this has maybe knocked the purebred breeders of their pedestal a little (not that all deserved that by any means - there are still lots of good purebreds and purebred breeders out there) But with the increasing mongrelisation of the purebred herd due to crossbreeding within it as well as the increasing use of outcrosses, especially outliers identified as the "next best thing" because they have the biggest EPD numbers I don't think it should be a surprise that average purebred genetics today are less predictable than they were a few generations ago.
I think the inevitable outcome will be a reversion to using more line-breeding/inbreeding as these are the tried and true methods of pure-bred cattle breeding that developed the breeds we have today.

 

[Triangle Bar]

Dylan, I think that's a good way of not only defining a 'good cow' but also the definition of an "ideal cow" and an ideal herd. That leaves the question, what percentage of your cow herd do you replace annually to maintain or achieve that ideal herd? Now perhaps your herd is so well adapted to your ranch and environment that that type of cow is relative easy to produce, if so congratulations on your management & good fortune. I guess maybe I'm not as critical. I'll put up with a cow with a nasty attitude or a not so perfect udder, at least for a while, as long as they produce a comparable calf to what my ideal cow raises.

Have a good day

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Dylan, I think that's a good way of not only defining a 'good cow' but also the definition of an "ideal cow" and an ideal herd. That leaves the question, what percentage of your cow herd do you replace annually to maintain or achieve that ideal herd? Now perhaps your herd is so well adapted to your ranch and environment that that type of cow is relative easy to produce, if so congratulations on your management & good fortune. I guess maybe I'm not as critical. I'll put up with a cow with a nasty attitude or a not so perfect udder, at least for a while, as long as they produce a comparable calf to what my ideal cow raises.

Have a good day

Tri bar thank you for your reply. You raise a number of points/questions, I will do my best to reply. Every year is a bit and sometimes a lot different, mother nature can always throw a curve ball. Our replacement percentage has changed over the years since imposing our 48 day breeding season in 1986. We sold a lot of open cows over the years especially young cows 3's and 4's. We have also experimented with our calving season over the years from April- May then as late as July- August now back to May- June which is where I believe we will stay. In the early going we would get up to 15% opens on the whole herd and up to 30% young cows some years, but to be fair some years we pushed those cows way to hard from a nutritional stand point. There is a point where saved feed is lost productivity. It's futile to try and starve a profit out of a cow. The closer you can manage to that line the better. That being said seldom will a rancher ever regret having cows in decent condition come calving time. The commodity market leaves virtually no room for waste or excess in the cow-calf game. The last 11 years or so we are running consistently at that 7 to 8% open rate even in our continued drought conditions. Which is why I say seldom will a rancher regret going easy on his grass and always maintaing some drought reserve especially in this semi arid more arid than semi the last 10 years. Our heifers lately are running consistenly less than 5% open and even less the last couple of years. As regards the ideal herd I wouldn't claim to have one. But it is nice to strive for. One thing that encourages me is that we have a lot higher % of older cows in our herd now than we use to which is a goos sign in my opinion. When you add in cull and opens our replacement rate seems to have stabilized at around 12%. As regards being critical on cows that are very protective the older and less agile I get the tolerance I have. When I am out alone horseback during calving season tagging calves and taking BW's on the purebred and the % bull calves that qualify as bull prospects the only thing I have to hide behind is my cow pony or a 4 wire fence if I am lucky enough to be near the perimeter. And some cows I have had ignore the fence on occasion. Then we are really havin fun. Just have to leave them for a day or two or bring out the pick up later and hope she doesn't climb in back with me. :???:

 

[Northern Rancher]

I guess as you raise more of what meets your criteria you can rid of more that don't. Our wildies, questionable udderred cows etc we breed south Devon usually and feed out all the calves. the bull we use throws some good females but wasn't a consistent udder fixer so we moved him into a terminal role.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Tri Bar I will do my best to have a good day and you do the same Thank you.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Dylan just sends out his handy crew of homemade cowgirls to tag the roughies. Seriously that is a good herd of crossbred cows raised in country that's isn't the most forgiving.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Totally agree with both. I would like to add or emphasize they must do everything above while doing the work of foraging in tough conditions without loosing undue condition.

I thought about that and relatively speaking I would agree but by the same token I have had some cows over the years that I always judged to be to thin but they always re-bred on time and raised good calves. I remember an old cow we had #109 born in born in 1981 she was an Angus Braunvieh cross not a big cow but you could honestly describe her as a cow that wore her working clothes very tight. Every year I was sure she would come in open but that didn't happen till she was 14. Now I am not saying that I want a herd of hard doing cows. But I have culled plenty of easy fleshing cows that didn't rebreed also. In fact the easiest fleshing cow I ever had on this place only raised four calves before failing to rebreed. What I conclude to date is that there may be a danger in assuming a very high correlation between ability to maintain BCS and fertility. Assuming that fertility automatically tags along with fleshing ability might get us into trouble.

At a certain level there appears to be a negative correlation between ability to maintain BCS and fertility. Bonsma stated something like "obesity reciprocating infertility and vice versa"
We are seeing this as well in our herd - I have one family that are extremely heavily fleshed, thus far at expense of milk production rather than fertility but the oldest cow is only 6 so there is still time. I've also had the wonder cow that milks heavy, goes through life leaner and still lasts to a ripe old age. I think both types are extremes and knowing what I know now I probably wouldn't keep replacements off either in future. As always the difficulty is finding the balance that works under your conditions - I really believe the philosophies of Larry Leonhardt and that we should be selecting our cattle around the average - it seems to go against human nature though to not pick the biggest, longest, heaviest fleshed or whatever. I'm trying to train myself to this new thinking but I'm a slow learner

 

[Northern Rancher]

It would be interesting to turn a group of cattle loose in an area that has winter graze and see what is still there in twenty years. I learned one thing touring Dylans- cattle can be grass fattened and not be smurfs. A lot of times perception is not reality.

 

[Grassfarmer]

What does "smurf" mean in this context :???: