I never even thought of the revenue that could be generated using the "flushes" that makes some sense. If you could get even 15 good eggs per year it wouldnt really take that long to have an exceptional herd. Quality really is important I had a stud dog years back with a funky temperment. ( of course everything else was exceptional) I used him only on the soundest of bitches. Yup almost every pup ended up with that snakey temperment. Huge lesson learned. Gosh would that ever be a horrid mistake to learn on cattle. Yikes
What would you pay for heifers ?
- Thread starter Judith
- Start date
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Judith be careful you've got some money and not much experiencein a few years some PB guy will have your money and you'll have lots of experience lol. My buddy just got a TB mare bucks through the roof but too damned dumb to pack to rodeos. As far as purebred Angus breeders I think we got probably twice as many as we need already-it was a better breed in alot of ways twenty years ago before it became the flavour of the month. The Maytag repair man isn't the lonliest man in the world -the vet who cuts bulls for Angus breeders is-I got a bunch of them black beauties too lol.
Jason
Well-known member
The high dollar cattle sometimes really are not high dollar, they pay a bit and the rest is if they ever produce I get the rest. Don't pay a big dollar from anyone without checking it out six ways from Sunday.
A a general rule of thumb use a how long will it take to payback. I like to see a female pay for herself in 2 years, feed excluded. So if you will sell $700 calves $1400 should be her maximum initial price. $1500 bulls, $3000 is the maximum. The deal is you can't always get 2 paying calves from a PB cow in consecutive years ( if you want bulls you get heifers or vice versa). If you can get $1500 for bulls and $1000 for heifers lower the price for the factory to $2500 or $2000 will cover you if you get 2 heifers.)
One thing about Angus, they are very popular and there are some that should be culled, but they are popular because of the downstream markets, the beef is driving this one.
I have a friend who is an order buyer and he just toured Better Beef in Ontario. They have markets for the leaner breeds, (Limos are doing ok another packer buys most of them) but the profit generators are the good Angus cattle.
The feedlots there are not happy with Ontario cattle, although they are improving, and Manitoba cattle are really on the bad list (long way to get that reputation changed, sorry for the guys that do raise good stock lots of guys aren't). Alberta cattle (and by extension Sask) have a very good reputation and bring a better price from the packers because they grade better.
A a general rule of thumb use a how long will it take to payback. I like to see a female pay for herself in 2 years, feed excluded. So if you will sell $700 calves $1400 should be her maximum initial price. $1500 bulls, $3000 is the maximum. The deal is you can't always get 2 paying calves from a PB cow in consecutive years ( if you want bulls you get heifers or vice versa). If you can get $1500 for bulls and $1000 for heifers lower the price for the factory to $2500 or $2000 will cover you if you get 2 heifers.)
One thing about Angus, they are very popular and there are some that should be culled, but they are popular because of the downstream markets, the beef is driving this one.
I have a friend who is an order buyer and he just toured Better Beef in Ontario. They have markets for the leaner breeds, (Limos are doing ok another packer buys most of them) but the profit generators are the good Angus cattle.
The feedlots there are not happy with Ontario cattle, although they are improving, and Manitoba cattle are really on the bad list (long way to get that reputation changed, sorry for the guys that do raise good stock lots of guys aren't). Alberta cattle (and by extension Sask) have a very good reputation and bring a better price from the packers because they grade better.
Trust me guys I am going in VERY carefully. With more threats of BSE and gas prices and everything else I will be doing my homework. I know without a doubt I am prime pickens for someone to dump their garbage cattle on. I plan on having a solid business plan put together before a cow even steps foot in the pasture.
I'm 36 so not really in the mood to start over again if this doesnt fly. Don't plan on being bankrupt at 37. I have to do it right. Hubby got most of my hard earned cash the first time round so I'm only working on half of what I once had. Ironically after living off me for 8 years, doing half of Vancouver in the next two. He is finally making a good living, nice of me to put him through school wasnt it..... I'm really not bitter at all...grrrrrr..... Woops what did that have to do with the price of heifers... Goes off to corner to punish self for negative behavior.....
I'm 36 so not really in the mood to start over again if this doesnt fly. Don't plan on being bankrupt at 37. I have to do it right. Hubby got most of my hard earned cash the first time round so I'm only working on half of what I once had. Ironically after living off me for 8 years, doing half of Vancouver in the next two. He is finally making a good living, nice of me to put him through school wasnt it..... I'm really not bitter at all...grrrrrr..... Woops what did that have to do with the price of heifers... Goes off to corner to punish self for negative behavior.....
IL Rancher
Well-known member
there are about a dozen reasons cattle go for that much... One is the flush possibilities, one is show possibilities, one is taxes (although that loop was tightned a bit), one is publicity (Hey, we have a 50k cow, we must be doing something right!) and my favorite, is the you scratch my back and I will scratch yours. I buy a 50k bull from you and you buy two 25k heifers from me...Think about what it will do yo our sales averages, yadaa, yadaaa...
I get two stories on purebreed cattle from my Dad and my FIL. My dad used to work in the Ag genetics industry. He tells of a story in which he was invivted down to Kansas City, hopped on an Elevator up to the penthouse area of a hotel (You know, the fancy onference center where they sometimes have wedding receptions and such). Well, he steps off the elevator and their are two bulls, I can't remember if they are Brangus or Beefmaster (I think it was beefmaster) and he got to listen to a sales pitch on investing in these million dollar bullls or whatever... Guys in Tuxedoes standing behind the bulls to pick upthe manure... Than my FIL tells of all the great business deals he has been asked to get in on from a Piedmontese business to a few others... If we ever try to go pure bred here we will get shot I think... Oh well, still think about buying a few puebred Red Angus cows...
EXT.. I just sold an EXT bull and heifer... Risked life and limb everytime you stepped into a pen with them, so dang highheaded that if you breathed funny they would go running an bounce off things like ping pong balls. The VDAR bred steers in there that were raised with them were docile and calm... I look at pedigrees now and wound run if I saw any EXT.
I get two stories on purebreed cattle from my Dad and my FIL. My dad used to work in the Ag genetics industry. He tells of a story in which he was invivted down to Kansas City, hopped on an Elevator up to the penthouse area of a hotel (You know, the fancy onference center where they sometimes have wedding receptions and such). Well, he steps off the elevator and their are two bulls, I can't remember if they are Brangus or Beefmaster (I think it was beefmaster) and he got to listen to a sales pitch on investing in these million dollar bullls or whatever... Guys in Tuxedoes standing behind the bulls to pick upthe manure... Than my FIL tells of all the great business deals he has been asked to get in on from a Piedmontese business to a few others... If we ever try to go pure bred here we will get shot I think... Oh well, still think about buying a few puebred Red Angus cows...
EXT.. I just sold an EXT bull and heifer... Risked life and limb everytime you stepped into a pen with them, so dang highheaded that if you breathed funny they would go running an bounce off things like ping pong balls. The VDAR bred steers in there that were raised with them were docile and calm... I look at pedigrees now and wound run if I saw any EXT.
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Judith, should you decide to go the Shorthorn route, www.saskvalleyshorthorns.com is a great place to check out. Most of their animals are above average, with some breed improver bulls every year. They don't normally sell heifers, but you may be able to talk them out of a couple. Also very honest folks without the desire to put the screws to anyone. I've also got the phone numbers of a couple other Shorthorn breeders that I can IM you if you want them.
Rod
Rod
I just gotta know what does EXT stand for?
I would love those phone numbers if you don't mind passing them on. I still have a couple of months to keep the questions coming. Hopefully the farmers won't mind me asking a zillion questions. I have noticed that bulls are reasonable in price. How many heifers would one need to make owning a bull a worthwhile investment. With AI there is alot of choice for herd building. Do you relly need a bull in the start up stage?
I would love those phone numbers if you don't mind passing them on. I still have a couple of months to keep the questions coming. Hopefully the farmers won't mind me asking a zillion questions. I have noticed that bulls are reasonable in price. How many heifers would one need to make owning a bull a worthwhile investment. With AI there is alot of choice for herd building. Do you relly need a bull in the start up stage?
IL Rancher
Well-known member
EXT is a bull... N Bar Emulation EXT... The bull that sired mine was BAR EXT Traveler 205... Now, watch me be wrong but I have seen bunches of BAR EXT traveler kids and most were a bit off in the noggin.
I do think having mentally sound animals will be a huge priority for me. I have worked with enough digbat horses in my day to know that it only takes a couple of seconds to be squished into the ground. I have made temperment a focus in my TB's and most people can't tell them from Quarter horses when handling them. The only one that is not quarter horsey in type is my old stud. Very racing and tall but he was raised right and isn't flakey.
Totally off topic but how many heifers should I start with. Would rather start small and learn my way up. Don't want to bite off more than I can chew.....
Totally off topic but how many heifers should I start with. Would rather start small and learn my way up. Don't want to bite off more than I can chew.....
cowboyup
Well-known member
Just my opinion but if your just learning you would be a whole lot better off with good running age cows. Starting out on heifers could be tough, kind of like green people on green horses. Also the purebred business can be a tough nut to crack. It can take years to develop a good reputation and only a few bad bulls to ruin it. A commercial operation is pretty challenging in itself just to stay in business any more, but a little easier to get started. A friend of mine just bought some four and five year old cows with big calves at their side for $1125.
I agree with Northern Rancher in the number of black angus purebred breeders. Too many registered black angus bulls out there that should just be black angus steers.
I agree with Northern Rancher in the number of black angus purebred breeders. Too many registered black angus bulls out there that should just be black angus steers.
i dont care what breed you go with.but you have a few things to consider since your single.those are calving ease an gentleness of the cattle.whatPB stock sales well in your area.as for the heifers heeres why i wouldnt want them.since your alone you could end up pulling their 1st calves.older cows have less calving trouble.an would be easy for you to start with.your right you have to watch for guys that like to dump cull cattle on new breeders.
OK alot of people have said no to the first time heifers. Is it because of calving troubles or because they can reject the babies more often? I have lots of experience pulling calves (well me and John that is). ( John Deere) I breed TB's and they are probably the worst critters in the world for rejecting newborns or getting so agressive that they trample their newborns to death. You know stupid stuff where you just want to rattle them. I will definately head the advice though and get some older critters. Don't want to start with head aches if we can avoid it!
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Judith, if have the facilities, I wouldn't be scare of at least a few bred heifers. How do you gain experience if you don't have them? It'll also give you a chance to see first hand about the type of animal you need to gain calving ease. I'd recommend being able to check the sire over very closely before buying though.
Rod
Rod
Judith:
I have some Beefmasters in Texas. I do not like messing with bred heifers because I do not know what they are bred to. An 800 pound heifer bred to a 2000 pound bull may have real trouble calving...and if you are not right there with her it could kill both of them. Once a Beefmaster is a cow, she will weigh 1300 or so depending on her frame length and height...she has a lot less problems calving and recovering after she gets milked down. Heifers sometimes have a little harder time recovering, too, because they are not fat and do not have reserves like cows do. This causes missed heats, delayed breeding, and can really have a cow looking peaked for a longer time than you might think. Calves are pushed away from nursing sometimes by heifers just because the heifer herself is having trouble with nourishment. She's thinking, "Hey, I gotta make a living, too--give me a break!" Plus a number of other reasons.
Look real hard at a bull's birth weight and the weights of other calves he throws, and overall thickness before you buy heifers bred to him. On Beefmasters, if a bull is commonly throwing calves over 75 pounds, it is likely he will cause problems with heifers. 65 pounds or so is good for my purposes...I keep the best 1/4, sell the 2nd 1/4 at registered sales, and sell the rest commercial. Anything that won't calve in the pasture either dies or gets sold to the packers. I keep the largest, thickest animals, so my weights here may be a little high for someone looking at Angus. But I want small calves and big weaners (don't read that aloud as it doesn't sound just right)...hell, a newborn calf could weigh five pounds, but if he weighs 700 at the market seven months later, I'll take as many of those as I can find.
I raise (or buy an occasional one) heifers and breed them to my bull at an age and weight I pick to see they have the strength, resources, and body size to calve. I still prefer buying cow pairs after their first calf...you can see what kind of calf they will make which is her whole point of existence. You can see also then if they are going to hang up at calving, prolapse, nurse, etc. If I were you, I would buy young bred cows and expect to buy a bull in a few months after you see the first cow go back into heat after calving. If you buy one before that and put him in with a bunch of bred cows with no prospects of breeding anytime soon, depending on his temperament, he may test your fences.
A young (20-24 months) bull can handle 10 or 15 cows. Pick one that you can walk around without worrying about. A decent registered bull down here right now is cheap--$1500 or so--because of the drought.
Trying to time the AI deal with the time issues I have was lots harder than just buying a bull. The one I have now is kind of a pain because he likes to have his head scratched...concerns me that as he ages he will be pushier and eventually problematic. For now I just shoo him with bucket. feedsack, etc. Later I may have to hotprod him a couple of times to keep his distance. Anyway, adding a bull can be very easy if you really spend some time around them...figure out they are gentle, etc.
I envy you right now. It's like having seen a movie you love and regretting not being able to watch it again for the first time. Starting a herd is like that...wish I could do it again. Be ready for more work, money, and time than you planned on by half, more heartbreak as your best heifer won't breed, the pipes break on Christmas Eve, etc. as I'm sure you have with your horses.
I love cattle...and just when you think you're gonna make a few bucks, you get another bill that makes it break even and you coulda just not done anything. But, then you would've never seen and one all the stuff you seen and done. I will always look forward to calving...maybe this will be the year that old red cow throws a grand champion, you know?
I have some Beefmasters in Texas. I do not like messing with bred heifers because I do not know what they are bred to. An 800 pound heifer bred to a 2000 pound bull may have real trouble calving...and if you are not right there with her it could kill both of them. Once a Beefmaster is a cow, she will weigh 1300 or so depending on her frame length and height...she has a lot less problems calving and recovering after she gets milked down. Heifers sometimes have a little harder time recovering, too, because they are not fat and do not have reserves like cows do. This causes missed heats, delayed breeding, and can really have a cow looking peaked for a longer time than you might think. Calves are pushed away from nursing sometimes by heifers just because the heifer herself is having trouble with nourishment. She's thinking, "Hey, I gotta make a living, too--give me a break!" Plus a number of other reasons.
Look real hard at a bull's birth weight and the weights of other calves he throws, and overall thickness before you buy heifers bred to him. On Beefmasters, if a bull is commonly throwing calves over 75 pounds, it is likely he will cause problems with heifers. 65 pounds or so is good for my purposes...I keep the best 1/4, sell the 2nd 1/4 at registered sales, and sell the rest commercial. Anything that won't calve in the pasture either dies or gets sold to the packers. I keep the largest, thickest animals, so my weights here may be a little high for someone looking at Angus. But I want small calves and big weaners (don't read that aloud as it doesn't sound just right)...hell, a newborn calf could weigh five pounds, but if he weighs 700 at the market seven months later, I'll take as many of those as I can find.
I raise (or buy an occasional one) heifers and breed them to my bull at an age and weight I pick to see they have the strength, resources, and body size to calve. I still prefer buying cow pairs after their first calf...you can see what kind of calf they will make which is her whole point of existence. You can see also then if they are going to hang up at calving, prolapse, nurse, etc. If I were you, I would buy young bred cows and expect to buy a bull in a few months after you see the first cow go back into heat after calving. If you buy one before that and put him in with a bunch of bred cows with no prospects of breeding anytime soon, depending on his temperament, he may test your fences.
A young (20-24 months) bull can handle 10 or 15 cows. Pick one that you can walk around without worrying about. A decent registered bull down here right now is cheap--$1500 or so--because of the drought.
Trying to time the AI deal with the time issues I have was lots harder than just buying a bull. The one I have now is kind of a pain because he likes to have his head scratched...concerns me that as he ages he will be pushier and eventually problematic. For now I just shoo him with bucket. feedsack, etc. Later I may have to hotprod him a couple of times to keep his distance. Anyway, adding a bull can be very easy if you really spend some time around them...figure out they are gentle, etc.
I envy you right now. It's like having seen a movie you love and regretting not being able to watch it again for the first time. Starting a herd is like that...wish I could do it again. Be ready for more work, money, and time than you planned on by half, more heartbreak as your best heifer won't breed, the pipes break on Christmas Eve, etc. as I'm sure you have with your horses.
I love cattle...and just when you think you're gonna make a few bucks, you get another bill that makes it break even and you coulda just not done anything. But, then you would've never seen and one all the stuff you seen and done. I will always look forward to calving...maybe this will be the year that old red cow throws a grand champion, you know?
Kwebb,
Thank you so much for the detail and thought put into your post. I really do appreciate it! I have pretty much decided to run two herds. One of commercial and one purebred (two breeds). The commercial cattle will get me through when the purebreds cant. I am planning on starting with two breeds watching and recording for about two years and then cull from there. I went out to look at a couple of herds today. I found this observation interesting...
I am using these two breeds as examples only so please no flaming! the following situation is hypothetical in nature.
Angus breeder A takes me out to look at bred cows shows me what is for sale, goes into detail etc. Very educational. I spot a cow of a different breed lets say Herford just cause I can. Milling about in the pasture. I ask about it. He says yuck you don't want that cow she's "goes on to list about a thousand faults that are not there" Says she's not for sale going for meat. I make an offer on her as she is CLEARLY the best cow on the property. He says no not for sale. Was he A. blinded by his love for Angus
B. Just wanting to keep the cow, and if this was the case why not just say so........
C. Just trying to test me?
I had a great day there but could not believe how much he made up faults just to prove his point. Come on folks, I'm not that dumb.... I've been around livestock my whole life, I hope that I have picked up at least a little bit.sheesh.
another question Who puts together business plans for the bank? I have all the lastest and greatest software but my eyes glaze over at the first sentence. Gosh that stuff is BORING... Do you think the bank manager would accept a version on tape rather than a written copy...Just jokin...
Thank you so much for the detail and thought put into your post. I really do appreciate it! I have pretty much decided to run two herds. One of commercial and one purebred (two breeds). The commercial cattle will get me through when the purebreds cant. I am planning on starting with two breeds watching and recording for about two years and then cull from there. I went out to look at a couple of herds today. I found this observation interesting...
I am using these two breeds as examples only so please no flaming! the following situation is hypothetical in nature.
Angus breeder A takes me out to look at bred cows shows me what is for sale, goes into detail etc. Very educational. I spot a cow of a different breed lets say Herford just cause I can. Milling about in the pasture. I ask about it. He says yuck you don't want that cow she's "goes on to list about a thousand faults that are not there" Says she's not for sale going for meat. I make an offer on her as she is CLEARLY the best cow on the property. He says no not for sale. Was he A. blinded by his love for Angus
B. Just wanting to keep the cow, and if this was the case why not just say so........
C. Just trying to test me?
I had a great day there but could not believe how much he made up faults just to prove his point. Come on folks, I'm not that dumb.... I've been around livestock my whole life, I hope that I have picked up at least a little bit.sheesh.
another question Who puts together business plans for the bank? I have all the lastest and greatest software but my eyes glaze over at the first sentence. Gosh that stuff is BORING... Do you think the bank manager would accept a version on tape rather than a written copy...Just jokin...
the_jersey_lilly_2000
Well-known member
Judith, a couple years ago, we decided to increase our herd by buying another whole herd from someone gettin outta the cow business. I don't know about bankers in your area, but when we called ours, we set up a day and time to go by the bank and pick him up and take him out to look at the herd. He then wanted to look at our cow operation on our way home. We stopped by our pasture and drove him around also. Went back to the bank, he said he'd send the man a check, and to come back Monday and he'd have the paper work ready for us to sign. Perdy simple. Hope you have a banker that's as easy to work with as ours is. Good luck.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Judith I don't think anybody can get by you in a deal too easy. If your financial records are on CD most banks can handle them for sure. Did you check out that real estate guy I gave you the number for yet-he's a straight shooter.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Check your pm's young lady lol.
Northern, you are going to have to stop with the "shooting" statements. They are WAY to easy..... But your right It be mighty difficult to pull the wool over my eyes at this stage of the game. Can someone please get this sheep of my head though......