Who do you think is some of the best Seedstock producers?

[Mike]

Would not choosing replacements from the middle of the herd and not the top or biggest hfrs not moderate and even out a cow herd. I know it is hard to disipline ones self not to pick the biggest but I think that leads the herd down the wrong direction.

Big Muddy, Culling the heifers is a two-edged sword. By culling the smallest, (and using an age consideration) you are getting rid of slow growers, and by culling the largest at weaning you are giving up that faster growth too. The larger calves at weaning do not necessarily make the largest cows/bulls in my situation. I cull the bottom end at weaning, make a cull after ultrasound and let the heifers calve at least once, sometimes two, then make another decision. My bull customers will not accept moderate growth at weaning, because they are weaning on the trailer and selling by the pound. I guess it's a question of when you cull also.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Possibly the difference between PB and commerical operations. When calving out 400 head we have 200 hfrs to choose from for 40 replacements. I agree that you need good growth but I try to weed out the framyist Hfrs and pick the evenest package I can. To do that you have to go the the top of the middle of the group and that way you eliminate the extremes.
I realize when selling PBs that most customer say they want one thing then buy the biggest bull in the lot.

 

[BRG]

Another ranch that I think needs to be on this list is the Vermillion Ranch. Pat Goggins does alot of things, and one that he is very good at is the support he gives his customers after they buy a bull from him. He spends alot of money making sure his customers are happy, He then turns around and supply's them with top replacement heifers.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Yeah better put Patty right up there as he is at the bottom of my Christmas card list lol wait no Leo McDonnell is-wait no Judge Cebull is hmmmm better just drop the whole bunch off all together.

 

[PPRM]

In our neck of the woods, I like the job Thomas Angus Ranch has done. C & B Livestock had some bulls that made real good feeding calves and pretty good mother cows. I also like Terry Anderson in Umatilla County and Mike Forman in Ellensburg.

My post reflects my current partiality to Angus and Simmental Cattle, especially the cross,

PPRM

 

[Jason]

Our very own Jason Trowbridge is an oldschool breeder. Despite his youth, JT understands Angus pedigrees and performance lineages that epds still can't replicate. I know plenty of good Angus breeders, and epds sure help, but Jason has a chance to be an artist of the breed like Walter Merric is with Quarter Horses.

This board is amazing in that there are some really talented guys willing to share their knowledge. I could name names, but that's not my purpose. But watch what happens when someone asks Jason Trowbridge " my blacks are bred xyz, what do you think about abc breeding exposure."

Thanks for the vote Brad. Too bad more outfits didn't have real cattlemen running them. Lots of the places that get the high prices are just money places. Too bad some of us little guys didn't have the backing to get the better cattle promoted.

 

[clifflem]

I would have to add Gardiner Angus Ranch to the list. Henry and sons have produced great Angus cattle for a long time and continue to have one of the top production sales in the Nation.

 

[Faster horses]

Gardiner Angus is certainly an old, highly recognized Angus breeder. Now I mean no disrespect either, but Gardiner bulls are known to have smaller scrotals which is supposedly linked to fertility problems. That is one problem with 6807, he tends to throw smaller scrotals. There is no perfect bull~

What about Jorgensen's of Ideal?

I'd like to add my two cents worth on the earlier question about how do you get smaller framed cattle without using frame 2's? When you use frame 2's on frame 5's or 6's, you are going to get a lot of variation in size. Ben Lawson says on genetics, "one like the sire, one like the dam, and one in the middle." So using that information, can you see why it takes a lifetime to build a cowherd? How many big ones are you going to keep and cull later because they are too big~or vice versa. You have one out of three that will be what you want. Trial and error takes time. The direction you want to go is a little more predictable now because of AI'ing being more commonplace.

Someone told us the first rule of genetics: "Breed like to like." The Angus breed got into this larger frame problem from bulls like Grubbs McKenzie (thank you, Pat Goggins), Cobblepond New Yorker and bulls like that. BIG, FRAMY bulls. I remember when the joke about Grubbs McKenzie was that he was so tall, he couldn't reach the ground to eat. They had to feed him in a manger.

In North Dakota, the tendency is to like and have really big cattle. Wyoming seems to be on the other end of the spectrum. When we moved to Montana from Wyoming in 1975, I remarked that we had the biggest horses and the smallest cattle.

Larry Leonhardt says you just can't keep adding performance without getting the cows bigger. If you breed a bull out of a 1600 lb. cow, to a 1400 lb. cow, what is going to happen? Yeah, right on. Bigger, bigger, bigger.

So, what is the answer? Maybe we don't need the biggest bull in the sale. It seems to me some of the bull producers are just that. Producers of bulls to sell. They would do well to worry more about the direction the commercial man is headed. But, like has been mentioned here... when you go to the sale, everyone likes the biggest bulls. So why would the bull producer change anything he is doing? Money talks.

Well, it is an interesting topic for sure.

 

[badroute]

Hi there,

I am new to this and found this to be a good topic. Interesting to see all the different opinions. There are alot of good operations listed. I would have to say that one of my favorite breeders is Steve Brooks of Brooks Chalky Butte from Bowman, ND. I have bought many bulls there and I really like his program. The bulls are balanced EPD middle of the road bulls. There never seems to be a huge difference from the top to the bottom. Another breeder I used to buy bulls from until a few years ago was a fella from Alberta by the name of Peter Masters (Masters Cattle Co.)
He uses many of the same sires and principles in cattle breeding as Bill Conley from Missouri. He is a heck of a guy too, always full of bull. My dad once said he is the only guy he knew that owned 80 cows and could sell a 100 bulls.

 

[sw]

BRG,
if you knew, Vermillion (PAT GOGGINS AND SONS) you would place them on the countries MOST WANTED LIST. IMHO, they are the most disrespectful people in the industry. How can J&L Livestock have a dispersal every year? Come up here and see the hypocrisy of this place, ask Joe for a tour. I went to college with Joe and John, Joe would steal any answer he could to pass a class, never studied for anything, "If you weren't cheating you were not trying". Don't you dare put those people in this list. As far as a list of honest seedstock producers, none of the big names mean squat, they advertise, they promote and small producers have the best cattle. I will post our carcass data real soon.

 

[BRG]

SW,

Easy buddy, I didn't think that would make anyone to mad. I only meant he has a lot of bulls in many known programs, studs, sells his bulls as good or better than everyone else, and does alot for his customers. That is all. I don't know anything about their personal side.

 

[DaleK]

Elmhirst Lodge Herefords, Indian River, Ontario

 

[sw]

NICE TRY, YOU CAN"T BOTHER ME. I have better things to do than to listen to your dibble. Is that TAINT a cowman, TAINT anything, or just plain Taint nothing?

 

[Denny]

BRG,
if you knew, Vermillion (PAT GOGGINS AND SONS) you would place them on the countries MOST WANTED LIST. IMHO, they are the most disrespectful people in the industry. How can J&L Livestock have a dispersal every year? Come up here and see the hypocrisy of this place, ask Joe for a tour. I went to college with Joe and John, Joe would steal any answer he could to pass a class, never studied for anything, "If you weren't cheating you were not trying". Don't you dare put those people in this list. As far as a list of honest seedstock producers, none of the big names mean squat, they advertise, they promote and small producers have the best cattle. I will post our carcass data real soon.

Your just a bitter little man. Connealy's have had about as much influence on the Angus breed as anyone. Doug Hoff has got to be up there as well. Jerry and Marty are some of the nicest most honest people in the biz. Bitter A holes like you make me sick, you walk around all day with a chip on your shoulder pissing and moaning that you only have 200 acres and 10 pairs. Don't worry maybe Joe will give your broke not nice a job.

You mention Hoffs you ever read there cow dispersal adds they really promoted the fact that they were DONE hell they never missed a beat to me thats false advertising and would never buy their genetics directly.

If you are having a dispersal thats what you should promote it as but if you are just trying to clip a coupon by playing on the drought as a reason thats bullcrap.They made enough cash off their bulls that trucking the cows to a feed source or trucking in feed would have been viable choice.

Kind of like shaffs "total dispersion of sale" what a bunch of bull..

To me when I have my Final Dispersion thats exactly what it will be no more no less useing these times are tough practices to promote a sell out when really all they are doing is paying down debt to me thats crooked and any of these so called "Reputable Breeders" who do it are just plumb thieves.............................

 

[Aaron]

Agree with you 100% Denny. Lots of breeders had so called 'dispersal' sales in the early 90's and than got back into the business half way through the decade, usually because they would keep the better heifer calves 'just in case'. People who pull that stunt will never see a dollar from me. When you are out, your out. I don't mind paying top dollar for a bull or heifer from a classy operation that I will never see operate again, but I do so under that belief. To do otherwise is cheating your customers.

 

[Brad S]

Here is what I suggest makes a great breeder. A great breeder is like a walking genome map. I picked Jason Trowbridge as a top breeder because I've seen him on this very board display an amazing understanding of his breed. Someone asked about crossing line x and line y, and Jason would say x goes back to w and y goes back to z and there is too many unsound udders (or whatever trait) in that cross. First you must know good cattle, and too many "top" breeders don't. Then you must know the strengths and weaknesses of the breed. Then you must understand the nuances of breeding patterns.