Why the BS?

[Tam]

Tam, Tam, Tam. Japan was taking beef processed in US packing plants prior to Dec. 2003. Something happened in Dec., 2003, and it wasn't anything to do with our packing plants. :wink:

Sandhusker Sandhusker Sandhusker(please get a shorter name :lol: ) something did happen in Dec 2003 and it had everything to do with your packing plants. They allowed a BSE positive cow to be ground and mixed with 10,000 pounds of hamburger and be distributed to at least eight States. They tried to recall it but it was to late as some had already been eaten.

Tam, Tam, Tam-Tam-Tam,
Lets say you are correct about our packing plants - I don't agree, but lets say you are right. Even if our packing plants are inept as can be, how will the US taking live cattle from Canada prompt the Japanese to take US beef? The USDA says it will, (I notice you don't think them to be real credible, either), NCBA says it will, some on this board say it will, but nobody can offer an explanation how! NOTHING that we have done in regards to Canada has budged them an inch. Why would anything else be different?

Maybe it will show the Japanese that the US trusts the US packing industry. It was your Packing Industry that caused the BSE to get into YOUR food chain. All you have done is take our safe meat but that doesn't show Japan that you trust your slaughter industry to process safe meat from the same aged animal. I asked you before and you never answered so I'll ask you again
If a country takes beef from another country and considers it safe but not the same aged cattle to be processed in their own slaughter houses. Is it the beef that is not safe or the place it is slaughtered?
What you are showing Japan and the rest of the world is Canadian's beef is safe but not as long as it goes through your slaughter plants.
Japan told the US and Canada if we didn't trust each other then why should they trust us. The US taking our beef and not the cattle is just showing them that you don't trust your plants. So why should they? Canada taking US beef and cattle for slaughter, tells them that we trust your beef and our slaughter plant to process it into safe meat for our consumers.

 

[Anonymous]

When are you going to provide proof that Japan would take our beef with BSE testing?A SO Japan Is Going To Take The EU 's TESTED beef!!!!!!!

Is Canada taking beef from the EU?

 

[Anonymous]

Sandhusker: "Us taking Canadian boxed beef did nothing to budge Japan, why would taking live cattle?"

Because not taking Canadian live cattle while taking Canadian boxed beef shows a distrust in the safety of our processing facilities to remove SRMs.

Sandhusker: "What have Japan's actions (and inactions) been to our moves with Canada?"

We haven't made any moves with Canada to open the border to live cattle yet. DUH!


SH (previous question): "If we are accepting Canadian boxed beef why would Canadian cattle be less safe?"

Sandhusker (making a statement rather than providing an answer): "I don't think we should be taking either. That was our "science based" policy prior to May 23, 2003. The "science" has not changed since then."

Typical R-CALF cloned response. The conditions have changed. Canada has stepped up their BSE surveilance and they are removing SRMs.

The science supports opening the Canadian border just as it would support the safety of our beef in the event that BSE was discovered here.

I just hope NCBA and USDA don't have to do damage control for R-CALF's lies about the safety of Canadian beef in the event that BSE is discovered here.


SH (previous question): "When are you going to provide proof that Japan would take our beef with BSE testing?"

Sandhusker (diversion): "You want proof AGAIN? I've told you FOUR times now that Mike posted your proof. I even told you the approzimate date!"

If Mike posted the proof, WHY CAN'T YOU BRING IT????

Talk is cheap Sandhusker and no cheaper than it is from you.


AHEM,

What leverage can we possibly have with Japan to say that our UTM beef is safe but then turn around and suggest that Canadian UTM cattle are not BUT THE BOXED BEEF FROM THOSE CATTLE IS SAFE?????

Not even the most devoted of R-CALF's followers can ignore the hypocrisy in that.


~SH~

 

[Anonymous]

The science supports opening the Canadian border just as it would support the safety of our beef in the event that BSE was discovered here.



What leverage can we possibly have with Japan to say that our UTM beef is safe but then turn around and suggest that Canadian UTM cattle are not BUT THE BOXED BEEF FROM THOSE CATTLE IS SAFE?????

Not even the most devoted of R-CALF's followers can ignore the hypocrisy in that.


~SH~

~SH~ Which science are we talking about- USDA's and NCBA's "sound science" or now the current "best science available" or the science that many see as a "Big grey area science" with 100 different theories and hypothesis's- and no one in agreement? Even NCBA has woke up to the fact that the science isn't there - who is right? Prusiner- Purdey- or the other 98 worldwide scientists that have theories? Looks to me like the "science of the corporate dollars" is pushing against US herd health and consumer safety........


Japan doesn't want our Under Thirty Month cattle- they don't want Canada's Under Thirty Month cattle---- they want us to prove its under twenty month... Why should we take Under Thirty Month cattle from Canada, which according to the packers, they have no way to segregate and expect Japan to open their arms to us.....

 

[Tam]

Oldtimer: which according to the packers, they have no way to segregate and expect Japan to open their arms to us.....


Will it really matter if you can segregate it or not. If Japan wanted only twenty month and under beef from the US herd they would be asking you to verify where it comes from right along with the age, but they aren't are they?

 

[Anonymous]

Oldtimer: which according to the packers, they have no way to segregate and expect Japan to open their arms to us.....


Will it really matter if you can segregate it or not. If Japan wanted only twenty month and under beef from the US herd they would be asking you to verify where it comes from right along with the age, but they aren't are they?

Tam- what do we do with the UTM Canadian beef that doesn't qualify as under twenty month? We sell that to the US consumer?-- But according to the Japanese that could be BSE infected and endanger our consumers... That loses more credibility to our consumers-- much more than Creekstones wanting to test for export to Japan ever would....

No- we'll just tell the US consumer we'll only ship under twenty month to Japan because their BSE science requires it- but we'll take under thirty month from Canada because we don't believe in Japan's science-- And the US consumer can all be guinea pigs.... Right...

TOO MANY "UNANSWERED SCIENCE" QUESTIONS.....

 

[Anonymous]

"Tam- what do we do with the UTM Canadian beef that doesn't qualify as under twenty month?"

You replace the increased exports from other countries the US has brought in over the past 18 months. Then you EAT IT.

 

[Denny]

"FOR SALE"

CLUBS, hand made from Piss and Moan Elm can be used to beat a dead horse.Or any other topic thats old and dead.


Heres one question if the last "BSE" positive cow would have been slaughtered a week before she slipped and fell would she have been tested or eaten??? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Eaten same as the Washington State cow.

 

[Tam]

"FOR SALE"

CLUBS, hand made from Piss and Moan Elm can be used to beat a dead horse.Or any other topic thats old and dead.


Heres one question if the last "BSE" positive cow would have been slaughtered a week before she slipped and fell would she have been tested or eaten??? :wink:

The anwser to your question is Canada and the US both learn their lesson on the Washington cow that was eaten and that is why we remove the SRM's from OTM cattle now. So if the last BSE positive cow would have been slaughter without a test there still would be no risk from her meat.

 

[Mike]

Tam:

"The anwser to your question is Canada and the US both learn their lesson on the Washington cow that was eaten and that is why we remove the SRM's from OTM cattle now. So if the last BSE positive cow would have been slaughter without a test there still would be no risk from her meat."

Response: Tell that to the Japs. OTM means "Over Twenty Months" to them. If Canada keeps listening to the USDA their export markets will be shot to he!! in the future too!

 

[Kato]

She would have been killed at a plant that only killed OTM cattle.
She would have had the SRM's removed according to OIE specifications. The offal from her and all similar aged cattle would not have been rendered into cattle feed, according to OIE specifications.

Note: according to OIE specifications.

As of next month, slaughter plants everywhere, including the United States can check the CCIA database and see exactly how old an animal is at slaughter. Ya, Ya, I know... "How do they know that's the exact age?" Trust, that's how. Something we have worked our butts off to earn. I would bet those same age verified cattle will be a hot commodity for those wishing to ship to Japan when that market opens. Japan has already said it will give Canada the same trading status as America when it finally decides what terms are acceptable. Don't forget the Japanese are among the touchiest consumers in the world regarding their perception of safe food, and they will take some time to decide.

As for the border staying closed to OTM live cattle, and beef, there's only one reason for that. If we ship beef from those animals without having the border open to live cows, then the Canadian packing industry is at an advantage. Our new cull cow plants will become viable, and will be much safer from the predatory practices of the big fellows down south who would love to put them out of business.

It will open for boxed OTM the day it opens for live cows, because that's the way your packing industry wants it. MONEY is keeping the border closed. Money talks.
8)

 

[Anonymous]

"FOR SALE"

CLUBS, hand made from Piss and Moan Elm can be used to beat a dead horse.Or any other topic thats old and dead.


Heres one question if the last "BSE" positive cow would have been slaughtered a week before she slipped and fell would she have been tested or eaten??? :wink:

The anwser to your question is Canada and the US both learn their lesson on the Washington cow that was eaten and that is why we remove the SRM's from OTM cattle now. So if the last BSE positive cow would have been slaughter without a test there still would be no risk from her meat.

What lesson did Canada learn from the Washington cow other than we have a far superior tracout system?

SRM's were akready being removed in Canadian OTM cattle before that. Are they being removed in American now or is that is still under consideration?

 

[Anonymous]

Tam, "Maybe it will show the Japanese that the US trusts the US packing industry. It was your Packing Industry that caused the BSE to get into YOUR food chain. All you have done is take our safe meat but that doesn't show Japan that you trust your slaughter industry to process safe meat from the same aged animal.

Tam, I know you want to believe that the US taking live Canadian cattle will open export markets for the US, but your use of the word "maybe" tells me that you really don't know how it would work. I've never heard of the Japanese, or anybody else, complaining about our packing plants. Yes, the Washington cow got into our food chain, but I believe that door is closed now. That issue has been dealt with.


Tam, " I asked you before and you never answered so I'll ask you again
If a country takes beef from another country and considers it safe but not the same aged cattle to be processed in their own slaughter houses. Is it the beef that is not safe or the place it is slaughtered?

That is not the only possibilty, Tam. I'll give you credit that that is the first thing to look at, but there are other possibilities. I personally believe that it's one of those deals the USDA does that doesn't make sense. Add it to the list that includes banning of private BSE testing, announcing inconclusive BSE results, putting identical USDA stamps on beef from any origin, etc.... I realize my answer is a poor one, but it is an honest one.

 

[Kato]

The bottom line is that Japan is very very fussy about their food. We can't force them to accept something they worry about any more than they can force us to eat raw fish.

They are not going to open up to one of us without opening up to the other, so we may as well work together on this. They see us as 'one' entity as far as the national cow herds are concerned, and no wishing and dreaming on the part of protectionist elements is going to change that.

So what do we do? Scrap away with each other, while the Japanese find other markets? Or do we present a united front and give them what they want? I think we should do the latter. If they want testing, then let's do it. We're not afraid of it on this side of the border. How about you guys? 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Sandhusker: "Us taking Canadian boxed beef did nothing to budge Japan, why would taking live cattle?"

SH, "Because not taking Canadian live cattle while taking Canadian boxed beef shows a distrust in the safety of our processing facilities to remove SRMs."

So we don't trust our packing plants to process Canadian beef, but we trust them to process ours? You need to dig a little deeper into your excuse hat than that!

Sandhusker: "What have Japan's actions (and inactions) been to our moves with Canada?"

SH, "We haven't made any moves with Canada to open the border to live cattle yet. DUH! "

What about the boxed beef issue? That was a "move" with Canada.


SH (previous question): "If we are accepting Canadian boxed beef why would Canadian cattle be less safe?"

Sandhusker (making a statement rather than providing an answer): "I don't think we should be taking either. That was our "science based" policy prior to May 23, 2003. The "science" has not changed since then."

SH, "Typical R-CALF cloned response. The conditions have changed. Canada has stepped up their BSE surveilance and they are removing SRMs."

Are they removing the prions from the muscle tissue?


SH (previous question): "When are you going to provide proof that Japan would take our beef with BSE testing?"

Sandhusker (diversion): "You want proof AGAIN? I've told you FOUR times now that Mike posted your proof. I even told you the approzimate date!"

SH, "If Mike posted the proof, WHY CAN'T YOU BRING IT????"

I would be happy to bring it except for the fact that you like to tell others, myself included, "I'm not going to do your homework for you". Why do you do that? Wouldn't it be much nicer if we all shared information instead of delivering snotty comments? :?

SH, "Talk is cheap Sandhusker and no cheaper than it is from you. "

Now was that comment really helpful towards two adults sharing a meaningful dialogue? Tam and I are disagreeing, but yet we still seem to be enjoying each other, at least I am enjoying her posts. Is Mrs. SH putting too much starch in your boxers?


AHEM,

What leverage can we possibly have with Japan to say that our UTM beef is safe but then turn around and suggest that Canadian UTM cattle are not BUT THE BOXED BEEF FROM THOSE CATTLE IS SAFE?????

Not even the most devoted of R-CALF's followers can ignore the hypocrisy in that.


~SH~

 

[Sandhusker]

That last "Guest" was me

 

[Anonymous]

OT: "Which science are we talking about- USDA's and NCBA's "sound science" or now the current "best science available" or the science that many see as a "Big grey area science" with 100 different theories and hypothesis's- and no one in agreement?"

The science accepted by the OIE.


OT: "Even NCBA has woke up to the fact that the science isn't there -"

Explain that statement OT!

Anyone can make statements without any facts to substantiate them.


OT: "Looks to me like the "science of the corporate dollars" is pushing against US herd health and consumer safety........ "

No, it looks to me like the "FEAR MONGERING LIES" of the organization you bow your head to is pushing against facts which could jeoprodize the integrity of U.S. beef in the event that BSE is discovered here.

Basically, R-CALF is saying to the consuming world, that beef from any country that has had a domestic case of BSE in their herd is not safe DESPITE SRM REMOVAL, DESPITE INCREASED SURVEILANCE, AND DESPITE NOT ALLOWING BSE POSITIVE ANIMALS INTO THE FOOD CHAIN.

I'd love to hear your lying leaders defend that one in court. In fact, I would pay to hear Bullard slither his way around that while NCBA and USDA were doing damage control to repair the damage from his stupid, wreckless statements that you head nodders accept unconditionally.


OT: "Japan doesn't want our Under Thirty Month cattle- they don't want Canada's Under Thirty Month cattle---- they want us to prove its under twenty month..."

Where did you get the 20 month figure OT? New development?


OT: "Why should we take Under Thirty Month cattle from Canada, which according to the packers, they have no way to segregate and expect Japan to open their arms to us....."

Wrong again OT! They can segregate UTM carcasses based on bone calcification ("B" Maturity) and that's exactly where the negotiations are at.


~SH~

 

[Anonymous]

Sandhusker: "Are they removing the prions from the muscle tissue?"

That question assumes that BSE prions are in UTM cattle beef despite SRM removal. I don't buy that for a minute.

Where is your proof that BSE prions exist in UTM beef despite SRM removal?

This should be good............


Sandhusker: "Wouldn't it be much nicer if we all shared information instead of delivering snotty comments?"

Oh spare me the moral high ground lecture. You've slung as much mud at me as I have at you.

If you have the proof that the Japanese government would accept 100% BSE tested beef, BRING IT! Quit diverting!


SH (Previous): "Talk is cheap Sandhusker and no cheaper than it is from you."

Sandhusker (in response): "Now was that comment really helpful towards two adults sharing a meaningful dialogue?"

It's true! You make your statements but you never back them. You have argued "JUST TEST THEM, JUST TEST THEM" since Shep was a pup but you fail to bring any proof that the Japanese government would even take our beef if it was tested. Hence, TALK IS CHEAP!


I ask a third time.............

What leverage can we possibly have with Japan to say that our UTM beef is safe but then turn around and suggest that Canadian UTM cattle are not BUT THE BOXED BEEF FROM THOSE CATTLE IS SAFE?????

That question too uncomfortable for you? Doesn't support your bias?


When you start to think about questions like that, you reach outside of the realm of the blaming R-CALF rhetoric.



~SH~

 

[Anonymous]

Sandhusker: "Are they removing the prions from the muscle tissue?"

SH, "That question assumes that BSE prions are in UTM cattle beef despite SRM removal. I don't buy that for a minute. Where is your proof that BSE prions exist in UTM beef despite SRM removal? This should be good............"

There is no "proof". It is only a theory as with just about everything we think about BSE. We have no "proof" that BSE is transmitted to progeny. We have no "proof" that it isn't caused by external factors. We have no "proof" about ANYTHING in BSE.


Sandhusker: "Wouldn't it be much nicer if we all shared information instead of delivering snotty comments?"

SH, "Oh spare me the moral high ground lecture. You've slung as much mud at me as I have at you. If you have the proof that the Japanese government would accept 100% BSE tested beef, BRING IT! Quit diverting!

Why do you demand information when the same is asked of you, you reply, "Do you own homework. I'm not doing your homework for you". You reap what you sow.


SH (Previous): "Talk is cheap Sandhusker and no cheaper than it is from you."

Sandhusker (in response): "Now was that comment really helpful towards two adults sharing a meaningful dialogue?"

SH, "It's true! You make your statements but you never back them. You have argued "JUST TEST THEM, JUST TEST THEM" since Shep was a pup but you fail to bring any proof that the Japanese government would even take our beef if it was tested. Hence, TALK IS CHEAP! I ask a third time.............

What leverage can we possibly have with Japan to say that our UTM beef is safe but then turn around and suggest that Canadian UTM cattle are not BUT THE BOXED BEEF FROM THOSE CATTLE IS SAFE?????
That question too uncomfortable for you? Doesn't support your bias?

I answered that for you yesterday. I don't think we should be taking boxed beef in the first place. According to our BSE trade policy prior to May, 2003, neither is safe.

Let me clue you in on another fact....we have NO LEVERAGE with the Japanese.