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Wildlife Populations way UP

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The wife and I went to a great prime rib dinner tonite sponsored by the Fish and Game for those ranchers participating in the Montana Block Management Program.....Got to visit with a couple old longtime breaks residents.....

They showed a good 15 minute movie that F & G and Montana Stockgrowers put together- mainly for all the hundreds of new out of state landowners that are buying up the state- trying to convince them that they need to work with their neighbors and the state to manage game- and not try and turn everything into a California owned private wildlife sanctuary- trying to show them how their sanctuary can wreck a neighboring ranchers livelihood....Good movie- sad that its had to come to this...Only real gripe they got was that it was all filmed in the western part of the state and had all western landowners inteviewed.....

They also commented that everything tested for CWD again this year was negative- altho it has been found just across the border in Saskatchewan...They plan to test every year from now on....

One thing I didn't need a meeting to tell me was that the deer and elk population is out of control- especially with the easy winter-- but I didn't reallize it was as bad as they said... Deer population is something like 40% above the record highest count...Elk population in the Missouri Breaks is 50% above what they want...Normal is around 1100 head-- what they like is under 1500 head-- this year their counts are showing over 3100......Time to oil up the old .308....
 
About 4 years ago the DNR in Indiana tried to educate the "Bambi lovers" who wanted the deer hunting stopped.

One of the groups ran a TV ad wanting the deer population to be what it was when the indians were here. DNR reported that deer are not native to Indiana and the population in the years prior to 1835 was zero.

We owe our deer to a govenor ( can't remember his name) who brought 8 does and 2 bucks from Missouri and had them in a petting park in 1835. Due to a high snow they escaped and now we have thousands of auto accidents and deaths every year.

There has to be a natural balance - - - in this case it seems hunting is the only practical way to keep things some what under control. It is not uncommon for the new neighbors who came from the city to feed the deer on their back proches ( my in laws do this) and the deer get so tame they become dangerous. If you are used to petting them and breeding time comes around they are not the same and can hurt you. No they are not as big as cows but they can still cause problems.
 
Oldtimer said:
The wife and I went to a great prime rib dinner tonite sponsored by the Fish and Game for those ranchers participating in the Montana Block Management Program.....Got to visit with a couple old longtime breaks residents.....

They showed a good 15 minute movie that F & G and Montana Stockgrowers put together- mainly for all the hundreds of new out of state landowners that are buying up the state- trying to convince them that they need to work with their neighbors and the state to manage game- and not try and turn everything into a California owned private wildlife sanctuary- trying to show them how their sanctuary can wreck a neighboring ranchers livelihood....Good movie- sad that its had to come to this...Only real gripe they got was that it was all filmed in the western part of the state and had all western landowners inteviewed.....

They also commented that everything tested for CWD again this year was negative- altho it has been found just across the border in Saskatchewan...They plan to test every year from now on....
One thing I didn't need a meeting to tell me was that the deer and elk population is out of control- especially with the easy winter-- but I didn't reallize it was as bad as they said... Deer population is something like 40% above the record highest count...Elk population in the Missouri Breaks is 50% above what they want...Normal is around 1100 head-- what they like is under 1500 head-- this year their counts are showing over 3100......Time to oil up the old .308....


You reckon we are gonna hafta get after them canuckle heads about this OT ?. :D :D :D ................good luck
 
This is an interesting concept. Imagine the wildlife folks actually working with landowners to find out about the wildlife we raise for them. Know anything about this, Oldtimer?

Ranchers as biologists
By JEFF GEARINO
Southwest Wyoming bureau

Monday, March 06, 2006

GREEN RIVER -- Longtime Sublette County rancher John Andrikopoulos knows he has an awful lot of sage grouse on the more than 15,000 acres of private and leased land used by his cattle operation. And there are neighboring ranches with good sage grouse habitat as well.

But unfortunately -- when it comes to the big decisions made by government agencies about how best to manage species such as sage grouse considered for special protection under the Endangered Species Act -- just knowing you have sage grouse on your land doesn't really count for much. Not without hard data to back it up.

Andrikopoulos and other western Wyoming ranchers are going after that hard data through a four-year project developed under the auspices of the Wyoming Wildlife Heritage Foundation.

The pilot project aims to develop programs and methods to help ranchers compile much-needed data about wildlife and wildlife habitat on their land. With that data, ranchers could then integrate agricultural land use with wildlife habitat management planning -- and maybe get a bigger say in federal decisions that affect wildlife on private lands in Wyoming.
"We see what's going on out there every day on the ground, but so often the rancher defers ... to the Game and Fish (Department) or (U.S. Fish and Wildlife) Service and the expertise of others. And while he's kind of not ignored, he's not a player," Andrikopoulos said. "Hopefully, this process is going to get us to the point where the rancher can become a player in all this data that's out there."

A contribution from EnCana Oil and Gas USA Inc. to the Wildlife Heritage Foundation included a donation of about $180,000 to help fund part of the unique ranching/wildlife planning project.

A consultant is working to design the system that will combine agricultural land management with wildlife and wildlife habitat management, officials involved in the project said.

The end result in 2008 will be a computer model that can be used by any ranch owner in Wyoming to increase, enhance and maintain wildlife habitat, said consultant Dave Lockman with Wildlife Management Services of the Rockies LLC.

"This basically gives ag producers the opportunity to make some contributions to an active management program to help prevent the listing (under the Endangered Species Act) of species like the sage grouse," Lockman said in a phone interview.

"Ranchers want to make a contribution to wildlife, and I think this is another forum for them to do so," Lockman said.

Three pilot ranches

Lockman said the project involves the development of multidisciplinary planning for three different ranches in Wyoming. The participating ranches are similar in their livestock operations, but have different kinds of wildlife habitat.

As part of the project, inventory work began in early 2005 on Andrikopoulos's 15,000-acre ranching operation in Sublette County. Inventory collection will begin in March on an approximately 45,000-acre ranch in Fremont County, according to plans.

Lockman said officials were in the process of selecting the third ranch, which most likely will be located in Carbon County. A second oil and gas company is being considered to fund the third pilot test ranch.

"Basically, the process we go through is to first identify what (wildlife) is out there now, what the wildlife habitat is, what the habitat relationships are and how the rancher is using that habitat," Lockman said.

Under the project, each rancher will set livestock, cropland and wildlife habitat management goals and objectives. From that, an agriculture/wildlife management plan will be developed for each ranch. The plans will include site-specific habitat improvement plans.

"From what we learn in applying a process tailored to each of the three ranches ... a model will be developed for integrated agriculture/wildlife planning and management that will have the capabilities of application on any Wyoming ranch," Lockman said.

"We're going to be designing a system that is feasible for the rancher to do, including the monitoring and the gathering of that baseline information he'll need," he said. "Plus maybe we can show them where they can go for some funding to get this stuff done."

Sublette project

Andrikopoulos's ranch is about 10 miles outside of Daniel. The most important part of the project is the gathering of baseline data on habitat and wildlife that can then be used later to plan management goals and objectives, he said.

"This project is one that comes from a need for ranchers and agriculturalists to go beyond their anecdotal understanding of their interaction between livestock and wildlife and how all of that can be better served by creating a good, solid baseline inventory of what's on the land," he said in a phone interview.

"We cover the ground on our ranches -- if not by foot, then on horseback or in pickups or four-wheelers," he said.

"We see what's out there every day on the ground ... It would take multitudes of people to do what a rancher can do simply by jotting down a few diary notes about where he sees various species and what they're doing," he said. "When those notations become part of a collective survey like we're doing now, they can yield a huge amount of information about what the animals are doing out there."

Andrikopoulos said with all the outside pressures Wyoming's ranching industry is facing, that baseline information can be a powerful tool.

"The rancher needs to have enough information about his land and the federal or state land he runs on and his own private land ... so that he can demonstrate what's there, how his cattle interact with it and how he can, in fact, be a part of that whole biological setting," Andrikopoulos said.

Southwest Wyoming bureau reporter Jeff Gearino can be reached at 307-875-5359 or at [email protected].
http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/03/06/news/wyoming/7de8eaf4015813c787257128002882d6.txt
 
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:52 am Post subject:

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This is an interesting concept. Imagine the wildlife folks actually working with landowners to find out about the wildlife we raise for them. Know anything about this, Oldtimer?


Basically, the process we go through is to first identify what (wildlife) is out there now, what the wildlife habitat is, what the habitat relationships are and how the rancher is using that habitat," Lockman said.

"This project is one that comes from a need for ranchers and agriculturalists to go beyond their anecdotal understanding of their interaction between livestock and wildlife and how all of that can be better served by creating a good, solid baseline inventory of what's on the land," he said in a phone interview.

"We cover the ground on our ranches -- if not by foot, then on horseback or in pickups or four-wheelers," he said.

"We see what's out there every day on the ground ... It would take multitudes of people to do what a rancher can do simply by jotting down a few diary notes about where he sees various species and what they're doing," he said. "When those notations become part of a collective survey like we're doing now, they can yield a huge amount of information about what the animals are doing out there."




Hey LB....sounds like a wonderful idea.....Im guessing if the SD GFP were to start a program like this, you would be first in line to survey your ground....and i am sure you would need no compensation for doing that either huh.... Looks to me like you have got an agenda or slogan for your run for office.
 
Hey LB....sounds like a wonderful idea.....Im guessing if the SD GFP were to start a program like this, you would be first in line to survey your ground....and i am sure you would need no compensation for doing that either huh.... Looks to me like you have got an agenda or slogan for your run for office.
Actually SDH, several of us here in Harding County have been talking to a GF&P wildlife biologist about this very topic – and no, the landowner would get no compensation from them if we help them document sage grouse on our property.

Try to get it through your thick skull that we are not anti wildlife. We just refuse to have our private property rights trampled in the dirt because of over zealous GF&P "law enforcement" employees and slob hunters who think they have more rights on our land than we do.
 
HAY MAKER said:
Oldtimer said:
The wife and I went to a great prime rib dinner tonite sponsored by the Fish and Game for those ranchers participating in the Montana Block Management Program.....Got to visit with a couple old longtime breaks residents.....

They showed a good 15 minute movie that F & G and Montana Stockgrowers put together- mainly for all the hundreds of new out of state landowners that are buying up the state- trying to convince them that they need to work with their neighbors and the state to manage game- and not try and turn everything into a California owned private wildlife sanctuary- trying to show them how their sanctuary can wreck a neighboring ranchers livelihood....Good movie- sad that its had to come to this...Only real gripe they got was that it was all filmed in the western part of the state and had all western landowners inteviewed.....

They also commented that everything tested for CWD again this year was negative- altho it has been found just across the border in Saskatchewan...They plan to test every year from now on....
One thing I didn't need a meeting to tell me was that the deer and elk population is out of control- especially with the easy winter-- but I didn't reallize it was as bad as they said... Deer population is something like 40% above the record highest count...Elk population in the Missouri Breaks is 50% above what they want...Normal is around 1100 head-- what they like is under 1500 head-- this year their counts are showing over 3100......Time to oil up the old .308....


You reckon we are gonna hafta get after them canuckle heads about this OT ?. :D :D :D ................good luck


Haymaker the theory is that we got CWD in Sask from elk brought up from Colorado. Have been testing and haveing control hunts but it seems to move some every year. So far none close to us or close to the border near OT.
 
Well us damned hunters would help control deer populations but the gates are always locked lol. The last several good winters have made things pretty good for the deer and the predators up here but fur prices are high so trapping coming back big time-and CWD did arrive in Canada via Colorado-they University there did some research on elk then sold them off after the study was done-so haymaker and O.T. can unknot their panties on this one. There are two ways of doing deer counts by the way-WAG and SWAG-wild assed guess and scientific wild assed guess lol.
 
Northern runt uses the term hunter loosely,if he considers himself one,I dont allow runts with guns on any of my places................good luck
 
Well us damned hunters would help control deer populations but the gates are always locked lol.
Oh, yeah! Sure you would…

When was the last time you paid big money and drove down across the border to shoot a doe, which is the only possible help to manage the deer population that comes from hunters?

The notion that GF&P manages wildlife with their hunting seasons is positively hilarious. The only management we have is a real hard winter, which thankfully doesn't happen that often.
 
One of the things I've liked about these meetings is its a chance to meet all the wardens and biologists at one shot...Wardens seem to come and go around here fast....

I really like the Block Management program because it is a way of allowing open hunting- altho I still control who and when- and get paid for it....$10 per hunter day and the state exempts you from liability and covers any damages incurred.. Not big money, but helps pay the taxes....And I've always allowed hunting anyway- the alternative is to lease out to an outfitter or private hunter- which would make much more money- but then many of locals and friends would not be able to hunt...

I haven't seen the individual numbers for my place yet- but countywide the hunter count ran 62% residents and 38% non-resident.......

One of the contributing factors to the large increase of game besides the easy winter was a lower amount of hunters- attributed to the high gas prices....

LB- So much of our grazing land- and especially sagehen habitat is Federal (BLM) or State owned lease land- so they can do about whatever they please...Our local grazing districts have been working with the biologists and been getting pretty fair results- altho when they first came in they acted like true tree huggers-- everything was the ranchers fault...But after they got out and actually saw it wasn't, things have been going better.......
 
We fill every anterless tag our family can get. In fact I get access to some incredible mule deer country for 'FREE' because we fill our doe tags on it. By the way OT I like your approach-I'm lucky up here everybody hunts so my son and his friends keep our deer halfways under control. We have neighbors that don't allow hunting that's their decision-in fact some have mellowed and allow bowhunting for example. As for game wardens I actually requested patrols for my place-kind of keeps the road warriors at bay.
 
Faster horses said:
OT, that is what has happened here as well.

On that topic, who is responsible for replacing old fence along the BLM?

I know the lessor is responsible for repairs, but when the fence is shot, who is responsible for the replacement?

You know- I don't know...I haven't got any BLM leases- except for an agreement that allows me to run in a BLM community pasture because I own deeded land in the middle of it...

I could fence it off and run double or triple the AU's, since it is a sub irrigated spring fed creek bottom- but that would also shut off the only water hole in that part of the pasture...Not greedy enough yet for me to do that to my neighbors....
 
Northern Rancher said:
We fill every anterless tag our family can get. In fact I get access to some incredible mule deer country for 'FREE' because we fill our doe tags on it. By the way OT I like your approach-I'm lucky up here everybody hunts so my son and his friends keep our deer halfways under control. We have neighbors that don't allow hunting that's their decision-in fact some have mellowed and allow bowhunting for example. As for game wardens I actually requested patrols for my place-kind of keeps the road warriors at bay.

NR- I can't eat that much deer :roll: When we went to town last night we counted over 150 head within a 1/2 mile of the house- saw several more herds in the next 4 miles...Much of this overpopulation here has came about because of so much being leased out to outfitters- who bring in 6-7 clients a year that pay mega bucks to shoot 1 big buck- but won't allow anyone else to hunt even does......

We're just lucky its an easy winter- or we'd be fighting them off the haystacks with clubs....I have seen where a couple of fawns found my second cutting tastier than the dry grass.....
 
I can tell ya this....i have no problem shooting a doe...no problem at all. I can tell ya a little story of what happened to me one time out in Jones county here in SD.......A friend of mine got permisson from an old rancher the year before to hunt on some private ground, had luck there and talked me into trying to get a license for that county. I was younger and had only hunted east river so the possibility of shootin a mule deer kind of got me going. He hunted public areas most of the time and we scouted all the public areas and decided where we were gonna hunt. At the end of the weekend of hunting we had only killed 2 of our 4 tages we had between us. we stopped in at the old guys house and a younger fella came to the door. It was his son. We asked if we could possibly get permission to hunt on the last weekend of the season. He said $1000. We said No way.....told him we have no problems shooting does...said $1000. We said have a nice day. On the way out of the place, 2 coyotes sat not 100 yards from the road. Think we even thought about shootin them? Rifle was on the front seat (thats legal in sd) Maybe for $1000...lol

There are plenty who would like to shoot does, i for one know ya cant eat a horn. i enjoy hunting and just like to be out. If i make a kill, great, if i dont, thats ok also. many times an old doe is as smart or smarter than a good buck and is just as rewarding and chalanging as the buck. There are alot who say things like "maybe if some would shoot does" Thats crap....there are alot who would shoot does..if they can get permission. but i can also tell ya there are not many who would drive 6-8 hours and not at least be given a chance to shoot a buck either.
 
just for the heck of it, i went to the Montana game department and looked at the cost of getting a license for elk in montana. Looks like it would cost me $700 for an any elk license and the only way i could get a cow tag is if i already have an elk tag, then the tag costs nearly $300 for a cow. I got no problems shooting cows but have a problem paying $300 for it on top to $700. If i could shoot 2 cows for $300 i would really think about it. I would think if they want to help thin them they would have some special deal for cows. Anyway, do you have to have a guide to hunt elk in montana or can anyone just go? I know some states you have to go thru a guide.
 

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