You Would be Crazy not to Test!

[HerefordGuy]

We have seen some really high bull prices this winter and spring. I know most of these bulls are purchased for their appeal in the show ring. But, it surprises me that buyers aren't gathering more information, especially information from genomic tests. I think you would be crazy not to test.
http://steakgenomics.blogspot.com/2013/05/you-would-be-crazy-not-to-test.html

Feel free to comment on my blog why I've got this all wrong.

p.s. I apologize for cross posting.

 

[Hay Feeder]

Actually the bull price started dropping fast in March and April
As well as replacement cows Bulls and cows right now today 5/23
Are lower than last year when our drought here in missouri started

The general cattle producer in the east only goal is to buy cheap and sell when they can make money. It tosses out the window all arguments of any genetic questions or discussions. About 45 percent of all cattle are handled that way. It's weird but transportation , cattle health as well as condition at a larger roll in cattle value here. I hate like heck to post that but its true how cattle breeding has went backwards in Missouri

 

[Anonymous]

I think one of the problems with genomic tests are that they are so new- and not proven that well yet...My understanding is that its going to take time (years ?) to get a data base of archived DNA set up to make them more reliable...

For the persons that shoot for the highest EPD numbers they can get- they may mean more than they do me.... But the big numbers aren't my game as I'm looking more for uniformity and moderation...That said- I have had genomic tests ran on a couple of the herd bulls- mainly because of curiosity-- and to see if the test results (and resulting EPD's) back up what I'm seeing- especially on such traits as BW and CED...

On the one bull- I can say they added evidence to what I was already seeing- raising his CED EPD a couple of points- and lowering his BW EPD a little... On the other- its going to take some more calves/calf crops to see where they set with accuracy...

 

[Mike]

Just another tool in the tool box.

If left to lay there unused it will be worthless. Used wrongly could be worse.



:roll:

 

[HerefordGuy]

Actually the bull price started dropping fast in March and April
As well as replacement cows Bulls and cows right now today 5/23
Are lower than last year when our drought here in missouri started

The general cattle producer in the east only goal is to buy cheap and sell when they can make money. It tosses out the window all arguments of any genetic questions or discussions. About 45 percent of all cattle are handled that way. It's weird but transportation , cattle health as well as condition at a larger roll in cattle value here. I hate like heck to post that but its true how cattle breeding has went backwards in Missouri

I was talking about bulls that sold for $600,000, or even bulls that sell for $90,000.

 

[HerefordGuy]

I think one of the problems with genomic tests are that they are so new- and not proven that well yet...My understanding is that its going to take time (years ?) to get a data base of archived DNA set up to make them more reliable...

For the persons that shoot for the highest EPD numbers they can get- they may mean more than they do me.... But the big numbers aren't my game as I'm looking more for uniformity and moderation...That said- I have had genomic tests ran on a couple of the herd bulls- mainly because of curiosity-- and to see if the test results (and resulting EPD's) back up what I'm seeing- especially on such traits as BW and CED...

On the one bull- I can say they added evidence to what I was already seeing- raising his CED EPD a couple of points- and lowering his BW EPD a little... On the other- its going to take some more calves/calf crops to see where they set with accuracy...

The technology/strategy is proven. Just ask someone in the dairy industry, especially the AI companies.

In one year the Hereford breed went from about 1,000 DNA samples to about 3,000 DNA samples. With 3,000 samples, the results become quite reliable, but of course not perfect.

If you are trying to achieve an optimum, I would think you would want to minimize possible change and maximize accuracy. What if the bull you tested had decreased in CED and increased in BW? Would you have waited two more years for progeny records to see that his values were even more sub-optimal than you originally expected? Or, would you rather cut your losses sooner than later? Just playing devils advocate and offering a different perspective. Or, what if you could have a more accurate/reliable estimate before you bought him?

As Mike says, it is a tool. I'm simply trying to explain that it is a tool that adds information, especially for young animals.

 

[Mike]

Actually the bull price started dropping fast in March and April
As well as replacement cows Bulls and cows right now today 5/23
Are lower than last year when our drought here in missouri started

The general cattle producer in the east only goal is to buy cheap and sell when they can make money. It tosses out the window all arguments of any genetic questions or discussions. About 45 percent of all cattle are handled that way. It's weird but transportation , cattle health as well as condition at a larger roll in cattle value here. I hate like heck to post that but its true how cattle breeding has went backwards in Missouri

I was talking about bulls that sold for $600,000, or even bulls that sell for $90,000.

I think each breed association should require it to be performed when DNA samples are submitted for each bull to qualify him for AI breeding and the subsequent registration of the calves.

Data collection is too slow for cattle and something needs to speed the process for EPD accuracy verification, especially in closed or smaller herds.

The positive genetic potential for some bulls isn't realized till after he's dead and gone, and on the other hand, some bulls are used too much before it's found out that he's a genetically inferior bust.

Pig EPD's move at lightening speed compared to cattle because of the number of progeny and their data.

 

[scout]

[.

Pig EPD's move at lightening speed compared to cattle because of the number of progeny and their data.

I work nights as collection manger of a boar stud producing 12000 doses a week for commercial producers .that's why my posts are at weird hours of the night. the pig epds move faster because the can get 5 litters every 2 years . and 30 pigs weaned per sow per year .they even have epds for crossbred pigs because purebreds are all but vanished in the commercial world.they calculate the EBVs off the performance of full brothers in a commercial setting and through the 50 k progam. I have mixed feelings about the testing we classify a boar on a estimated breeding value EBV. going off of eye evalution I don't agree with it . but studies prove other wise . our boars ebv change every month.like or hate the pork industry its about efficancy and profit .the beef industry could learn a few things from them. the sad part is the little guy is all but obsolete.

 

[Mike]

[.

Pig EPD's move at lightening speed compared to cattle because of the number of progeny and their data.

I work nights as collection manger of a boar stud producing 12000 doses a week for commercial producers .that's why my posts are at weird hours of the night. the pig epds move faster because the can get 5 litters every 2 years . and 30 pigs weaned per sow per year .they even have epds for crossbred pigs because purebreds are all but vanished in the commercial world.they calculate the EBVs off the performance of full brothers in a commercial setting and through the 50 k progam. I have mixed feelings about the testing we classify a boar on a estimated breeding value EBV. going off of eye evalution I don't agree with it . but studies prove other wise . our boars ebv change every month.like or hate the pork industry its about efficancy and profit .the beef industry could learn a few things from them. the sad part is the little guy is all but obsolete.

Interesting.................

 

[redrobin]

[.

Pig EPD's move at lightening speed compared to cattle because of the number of progeny and their data.

I work nights as collection manger of a boar stud producing 12000 doses a week for commercial producers .that's why my posts are at weird hours of the night. the pig epds move faster because the can get 5 litters every 2 years . and 30 pigs weaned per sow per year .they even have epds for crossbred pigs because purebreds are all but vanished in the commercial world.they calculate the EBVs off the performance of full brothers in a commercial setting and through the 50 k progam. I have mixed feelings about the testing we classify a boar on a estimated breeding value EBV. going off of eye evalution I don't agree with it . but studies prove other wise . our boars ebv change every month.like or hate the pork industry its about efficancy and profit .the beef industry could learn a few things from them. the sad part is the little guy is all but obsolete.

The pig data is all controlled by the owners of the pigs. They have an interest in the data accurate. The environment of a pig is also controlled and predictable. Pig data is going to be much more accurate than cattle data. Genomics are a tool that is or will be much more valuable to the cattle industry.

 

[PATB]

I have went back and tested the last 5 years of walking sires on this farm. I am still waiting the results back on 7 animals. I have the acquired the genomic results on most of the AI sires I have used in the last 8 years as well. I am interested in some of the hard to measure traits such as docility and tenderness. The goal is to find the optimal range for what works in my management scheme.

 

[andybob]

Pigs also rely on heterosis to improve performance, using F1 damlines and often F1 terminal sires, cattle producers are still strongly opposed to using crossbred bulls. I have both purebred heritage breed pigs and hybrids on the outdoor unit.

 

[3 M L & C]

I work nights as collection manger of a boar stud producing 12000 doses a week for commercial producers .that's why my posts are at weird hours of the night. the pig epds move faster because the can get 5 litters every 2 years . and 30 pigs weaned per sow per year .they even have epds for crossbred pigs because purebreds are all but vanished in the commercial world.they calculate the EBVs off the performance of full brothers in a commercial setting and through the 50 k progam. I have mixed feelings about the testing we classify a boar on a estimated breeding value EBV. going off of eye evalution I don't agree with it . but studies prove other wise . our boars ebv change every month.like or hate the pork industry its about efficancy and profit .the beef industry could learn a few things from them. the sad part is the little guy is all but obsolete.

The pig data is all controlled by the owners of the pigs. They have an interest in the data accurate. The environment of a pig is also controlled and predictable. Pig data is going to be much more accurate than cattle data. Genomics are a tool that is or will be much more valuable to the cattle industry.

The environment isn't going to change the genetics of an animal. The data is more accurate primarily because a boar will have 30 times more offspring each year than a bull as someone already stated.

 

[Mike]

The environment isn't going to change the genetics of an animal. The data is more accurate primarily because a boar will have 30 times more offspring each year than a bull as someone already stated.

Correct. No matter what the environment, the cream will always rise to the top because the data is based on the contemporary group. Indexing.........

 

[redrobin]

The environment isn't going to change the genetics of an animal. The data is more accurate primarily because a boar will have 30 times more offspring each year than a bull as someone already stated.

Correct. No matter what the environment, the cream will always rise to the top because the data is based on the contemporary group. Indexing.........

Incorrect. Varying environmental influences and data sampling heavily loaded to certain environmental influences and you have incorrect data when the data is applied to a different environment. The environment alone of course won't change genetics.

 

[redrobin]

The pig data is all controlled by the owners of the pigs. They have an interest in the data accurate. The environment of a pig is also controlled and predictable. Pig data is going to be much more accurate than cattle data. Genomics are a tool that is or will be much more valuable to the cattle industry.

The environment isn't going to change the genetics of an animal. The data is more accurate primarily because a boar will have 30 times more offspring each year than a bull as someone already stated.

Siring large numbers of offspring won't change the genetics of an animal either.

 

[3 M L & C]

The environment isn't going to change the genetics of an animal. The data is more accurate primarily because a boar will have 30 times more offspring each year than a bull as someone already stated.

Correct. No matter what the environment, the cream will always rise to the top because the data is based on the contemporary group. Indexing.........

Incorrect. Varying environmental influences and data sampling heavily loaded to certain environmental influences and you have incorrect data when the data is applied to a different environment. The environment alone of course won't change genetics.

You wouldn't compare a calf raised in Florida to one raised in Canada would you? The number raised won't change the genetics, but it sure changes how predictable it is. Also the numbers raised is how you get the accuracy. How else would it come about. Other than getting the same results more times.

 

[knabe]

i don't get why everyone is obsessed with birth weight.

what do i need a bull that is 2 lbs less with a little more accuracy when the one i had is 95 lbs for bull calves and 85 for heifers on mature cows. i think we could measure that in herefords decades ago.

pinpointer systems will lower costs quicker and you don't need the useless genomics companies who refuse to help track introgression.

 

[Mike]

The environment isn't going to change the genetics of an animal. The data is more accurate primarily because a boar will have 30 times more offspring each year than a bull as someone already stated.

Correct. No matter what the environment, the cream will always rise to the top because the data is based on the contemporary group. Indexing.........

Incorrect. Varying environmental influences and data sampling heavily loaded to certain environmental influences and you have incorrect data when the data is applied to a different environment. The environment alone of course won't change genetics.

The formulas/models used to calculate EPDs weed out environmental factors. There is no data sampling heavily loaded to certain environmental influences because genetic heritability is constant across all environments.

"The environment alone of course won't change genetics."

 

[redrobin]

The formulas/models used to calculate EPDs weed out environmental factors. There is no data sampling heavily loaded to certain environmental influences because genetic heritability is constant across all environments.

"The environment alone of course won't change genetics."

Please explain how the depressed apatite and increased body temperature induced by ergovaline is tabulated by the formulas and models when more than half the stock in the u.s.are grazing grasses other than fescue. If fescue toxicity has an influence on WW or YW or BW or Marbling etc, and the resistance to the toxicity is variable from sire to sire, how are the genetic models picking that up when large parts of data aren't on fesuce.