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A few random thoughts on the topics at hand

I look at this thing through a two sided lens. Yes Soap is absolutely correct that there are pressures to keeping together a long time operation that are different than a first generation one. My wife and I are holding together 126 years of history. Each generation there are succession pressures that split things up and if it is to continue then it needs to be built back up. We also both work full time on the ranch and farm but unlike some, I like grassfed beef. We do both commodity beef and grass finished beef to the plate. Having a grain farm is not a recipe for every year, some years it is the drain that the beef needs to support. We are all blessed that everything we want is available on the shelf but we also need to recognize that many things are not as healthy as they used to be. No I am not talking about rancid milk or bread made without the appropriate skills.

Good on anyone here who has the gumption to get out and figure out a way to make it work. There is no recipe that is suitable for everyone. That is what I think Soapweed was trying to get across. The grass is not usually green all year round. Playing both sides of the fence affords me the latitude to sit on it.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
I remember sitting through a presentation by Collen Biggs about their organic beef and how they market it. When asked what they do with animals that need doctoring well they are ID'ed and market through the conventional stream. Well is it safe or not?
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I guess I would say it is safe in the perception of consumers who are happy to buy their beef from the "commodity" system but it would not be safe, or more correctly desirable, in the perception of my beef customers. They prefer grass-fed, implant and anti-biotic free. I'm quite happy to let customers vote with their wallets - the customer is always right after all.

I agree with Soapweed that being multi-generational doesn't necessarily mean you get an easy go of it. I know outfits where the kids got handed the family place lock, stock and barrel with no debt and there are some at the other end of the spectrum who pay full market price for the land. Many young folk endure years and years of almost slave like conditions with no pay before they inherit the family ranch(and debt)
I can't complain because I am a product of an ultimately successful generational transfer - but I moved countries and left my family behind to finally achieve this succession. I am somewhat envious of the guys that start into this business from the outside - unburdened by the constrictions of what Dad looking over your shoulder says can and can't be done. I think also having business experience in another field before getting into agriculture can be an advantage over never leaving home and just growing into the family business. I think business skills on livestock operations are often quite poor and are a product of the family farm system where the kids are taught to care for animals and do the daily work without ever taking the step back and looking at the bigger picture needed to learn how to run a business. There are pro's and cons on either side of long established or starter ranchers but either way I don't think they really have much relevance to "niche or natural" beef production versus commodity production.
 
Grassfarmer said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
I remember sitting through a presentation by Collen Biggs about their organic beef and how they market it. When asked what they do with animals that need doctoring well they are ID'ed and market through the conventional stream. Well is it safe or not?
Click to expand...

I guess I would say it is safe in the perception of consumers who are happy to buy their beef from the "commodity" system but it would not be safe, or more correctly desirable, in the perception of my beef customers. They prefer grass-fed, implant and anti-biotic free. I'm quite happy to let customers vote with their wallets - the customer is always right after all.

There are pro's and cons on either side of long established or starter ranchers but either way I don't think they really have much relevance to "niche or natural" beef production versus commodity production.
Click to expand...

I agree whole heartedly with your view of the "grass-fed" vs "commodity" market! While there may be grass-fed marketers out there bad mouthing McDonalds type beef, I seriously doubt that it's going to put a dent in the demand for commodity beef. For one, natural beef is simply higher priced and the average consumer would rather have a product that's cheap and be acquired quickly at the local grocery store. Secondly, the starter ranch or small producer is going to have a very rough time trying to make a buck in the commodity bulk beef industry. However, he can make it all worthwhile in the niche market with their lower volumes but higher priced products. All commercial beef is relatively safe but that's not what this about. It's about the perception of what is more healthy. Call it a silly perception but it's no sillier than the idea that Angus is better beef than Hereford beef.
 
My wife and I are start from nothing people. I watch my grandpa lose EVERYTHING in the 80's, so my parents flipped when I decided I wanted to farm. we got married in 1991, and started on rented landd with a few cows and off farm jobs. this spring we will be up near 1,000 acres 70 cows, and more debt than my mom thinks I need. I have no bad feelings towards a multi generation farm, but do have ill feeling towards the way banks percieve the differences between the two situations. a large farmer near me, been broke twice, is a better loan than I was just starting out, because he had a "borrowing history" and I did not have one !!! his history looked real good!! broke TWICE!

but it is nice being the upstart in the area, when decent guys want to switch renters, they come ask me rather than the guys running 5 thousand acres....and it REALLY feels good!
 
Thank God we live in a Country where we still have the option to do it however we want. I , like each of you probably know people who have succeded or failed in each of the enterpizes listed in this thread. I tend to believe that people who are successful tend to find a way to be successful and , people who struggle tend to lock themselves into a position or an attitude until they go down with the ship.

Now, I've got to get away from this dang computer and go worm my " grass fed" angus bulls so they will be ready for some guy with a bunch of hereford cows who is wanting to add value to his commodity beef. :wink: :wink:
 
I think you all missed my point-I think the whole situation is a bit graver up in Canada-it reminds me of the saying "I complained about my shoes till I met a man who had no feet". I think right now in the U'S the shoes might be pinching a bit but up here were pretty much hopping on one foot. Ranching isn't easy at anytime anywhere but there isn't alot of optomism around these days-just in our kitchen but I'm too dumb to know better. As for the Biggs they are supplying a market for which there is a demand people like them, Pure Country and GrassFarmer are attracting consumers who alot of times weren't eating much beef at all or maybe not even meat period. So in the long run they are increasing net beef consumption. Check out their website.

http://www.natural-beef.net/
 
Grassfarmer said:
Very true NR - necessity is the mother of invention. I'd be real happy too if I could make a good living selling weaned calves and spend my time rearing them. It's not a reality though for most people up here without the rancher and/or wife working off farm.
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Reality is most everyone I know here that ranches has worked an off farm job weather it be the man or the wife. Most do it for health insurance and a retirement program plus some weekly walking around cash. I can think of a few where both stay home one has 100 milk cows and 300 beef cows. The other has 200 beef cows and 300 ewes. Kind of a duel enterprise. We have 200 cows and a Nurseing job here.But I will do alot of extra welding jobs also. 200 cows with modern equipment to me is'nt a full time job all winter I'm done with feeding by noon and I don't start until 10 so 2 hours gets them fed why should'nt I work a little to better my situation. Were only limited by our own greed and laziness.

On another note most every non agriculture family both spouses work outside the home. If our wives are'nt going to work an enterprise on the farm whats wrong with them working off the farm. My wife would go nuts sitting home.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
I think some of you missed Soap's point. He was not knocking the "Natural" beef niche or producers that can and do a very good job of off farm marketing of their production. It is the knocking of the "Mainstream" producers that produce commodity beef ect.

I remember sitting through a presentation by Collen Biggs about their organic beef and how they market it. When asked what they do with animals that need doctoring well they are ID'ed and market through the conventional stream. Well is it safe or not?

I think Soap was saying that we have plentiful supplies of safe food. It's up to you how you use it.
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You mean with statements like these BMR? from their website, I guess I didn't realize that there were cattle were raised without sunshine? :???:

CLEAN - All animals that are processed into our program NEVER receive antibiotics, artificial growth hormones, animal by-products, chemical parasiticides or ionophores . Our cattle are grazed on organic native prairie and fed unsprayed hay.

NUTRIENT DENSE - It takes over a year longer to finish our cattle than other organic or conventional animals because we GRASS FINISH them. This means that we do not feed our cattle grain, only hay and sprouts. Growing cattle slowly without the use of grain creates flavourful, nutrient dense beef rich in heart healthy omega three fatty acids.


HUMANELY RAISED - We use low stress handling techniques from birth to slaughter. This includes calving in the warm spring and summer months and freeze branding. We do not believe in the factory farming model or feedlot finishing - our cattle always have access to large pastures, fresh air and sunshine. Treating an animal with respect is our primary goal - this includes handling our cattle at the slaughter facility to ensure they are always handled properly.
 
Actually Yanuck there are cattle that don't see much sunshine the baxck half of their life anyways-the rage a few years back was to raise them in barns on slats like hogs-I had to go check a bunch on feed in one of them for a cattle buyer one time. They actually were doing pretty good and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be-but they werren't seeing much sun. You don't necessarily have to agree with everything the people do but their philosophy is thought provoking. Trust me I've had some spirited debates around the Bigg's breakfast table.
 
I truly admire those of you on here, and ranchers/farmers anywhere that make a living strictly off the land. We do not. We did for a while 2 years ago, then Mom and Dad decided to sell more land, we borrowed money to buy it, and here I am, a Livestock Inspector for the Province. While the wife is home full-time, and our direct marketing is getting better, and my job is alot better than the oilfield stuff I did for years, I'd still rather be home here everyday. So, to those of you that started out from scratch, or took over a multi-generational outfit and are still going strong, good on ya'.

As for the criticism of commodity beef, I am not meaning to criticize farmers and ranchers in any way. I want to make it perfectly clear that my comments about the FOOD, Inc movie, industrial livestock production, industrial food processing and so on, are criticisms of a system, nothing more. It is not a personal attack saying that he/she who implants their calves is the devil or any such thing. What I am getting at is big corporations have created a way to produce cheap food that is PROFITABLE FIRST, AND HEALTHY SECOND. THEY have done this, not US the farmer or rancher. THEY made a system that sees farmers trying to increase corn production every year, while selling it at a loss or breakeven price. THEY made a system that sees poultry growers investing millions just to get a contract, which could be yanked at any time if the rules aren't followed. THEY made a system that sees beef ranches across North America produce bigger carcasses, faster, at higher costs, for less dollars per cwt.

Corporations made this system, not farmers and ranchers. I do not bash farmers and ranchers, however I will bash the corporations that have made things harder for those of us who produce the products they need to make their profits.

I am not bashing you Soap, or any other farmer. I want to make things better for all farmers and ranchers. I am fully aware that what we, or Grassfarmer or Joel Salatin does is not for everyone. I am not trying to convert everyone to grass-fed beef, direct marketing or organics. I want to change the system that we're all in, not the people that are in the system.

Have a good one,

PC.
 
What he said!!! Soap it might be fun to market Sandhills Grass Fed beef-your in strong grass country I bet you could do well at it. I'm looking at my bred heifers every day drooling wondering whose going to hit my freezer.
 
Well I guess eventually what drives our choices is economics. I would gladly raise commodity beef if the markets would allow me to. Because it is relatively easy.

But there is little to no return in it, in fact it is a money-losing proposition on this side of the border. I don't care how big you are, you cannot make a living selling calves for $500 to $600 in this day and age.

If you think you can, just wait until you go to replace a piece or two of your equipment. You will quickly realize that you have been living off of your equity and depreciation.

Increasing the scale of operation will only disguise the fact that we do not get enough for our product if we are selling calves or finished beef. And I will openly hold the processing and retailing part of the equation directly responsible for this reality.

If you are going to raise commodity beef, you had best treat the packers like a "necessary enemy". And cuss the retailers with every chance you get, just so they know they aren't the king they think they are. Because eventually, you will discover that they will make their profit at anyone and everyone's expense, and leave you in the cold without any regard.

The Canadians have found that out. The Americans are next.

So it is a demented form of denial to say that everything is O.K. in the world of raising commodity beef. I will agree that the food is relatively safe when it leaves the farm, but the processing it goes through makes the retail product a different matter.
 
Good topic Soapweed.

I believe we do not appreciate what our packers and processors do. I believ to that it is sometimes good to go out and buy farm fresh products if for nothing else to see just what goes into getting our food on the grocery shelves.

I am a bit older then Soapweed I grew up in the 1930's. We had our own milk, cream, butter, eggs, chicken for friers, and butchered our qwn pork and beef. We also had a garden and had fresh vegitables from it. We had good tasty food. But as I remember, it came at a price

We had one well and a windmill on our farm. During the drought years of the 1930's we had to carry water from the stock tank to get the tomatoes, cucumbers,cabbage etc. to grow.

We had our milk, we milked by hand into an open bucket, then strained out the bits of hay, hair and whatever through a piece of cloth tied over the cream separstor tank. Even so we liked our milk. The milk we could buy in town was hardly fit to drink. If it was pasturized it had a scaulded taste. Sometimes we saved skim milk direct from the separater for the house. If we saved whole milk we let it cool over night. The cream would come to the top, we did not like it so skimed or poured it off. Our milk Cream and butter was kept cool in a barrel by the well that cold well water ran through. Our milk would stay fresh and not go sour for about 24 hours. Now about 1950 they begin to
homogenize milk and found a better way of pasturization, bottled milk no longer has that bad taste. and if kept in the refrigerator it might keep for two weeks. Today milk is taken from the cows goes into a pipeline where nothing can fall into it.

Now this is just one story, I could tell you ore about the availability of meat, eggs, fruit and vegitables and about how we churned our butter. Yes some things were better, Fried chicken the way my mother cut it up rolled it in flour and fried it was better then today. nothing like the fresh tomatoes and sweet corn direct from the garden or field. Still, all in all I do not want to go back.
 
We used to buy cream from our neighbors-they finally quit milking cows when they got in their 70's-it was so thick you had to spoon it out of the jar but I think you could eat roofing nails if you poured it over them. Nothing tastes better than milkfed pork, chickens or turkeys. We milked cows when we were first married then the government took our cream quota. I'd milk cows again but with four kids going 8 different ways just aren't home enough-I don't think anybody ever got sick around hear drinking miolk strained through a tea towel. The way government is now you'd probably get in more trouble selling farm milk to kids than you would crystal meth!!!
 
I'm pretty happy to have readily available pasturized milk. I milked my fair share as a kid, and even after it was strained through the tea towel and refrigerated in my mind I could still recall the combined smell of warm milk and fresh crap. We never got sick from it, and I'm glad I had the experience, but I would not want to go back either.
My biggest problem with the food system is the way the producer has been squeezed dry to bloster corporate profits. The system needs a fundamental change to reverse that trend before it's too late, but I don't know what that change should look like. Right now I like the idea of some sort of supply management system / producer run quota system.
I don't like the idea of buying our food from off shore where we don't have any idea how it has been handled or raised or if it actually does meet our standards.
 
Natural grassfed is a marketing option and management choice. I sure do not miss buying grain and the cattle are doing just fine on forage. I have not seen the benefit to using ionophores , pharapeutic drugs or implants in our operation. The switch to natural grassfed was a very easy adjustment for us and increased our bottom line. My feeder buyers pay a premium for the natural and Grassfed labels. One of the buyers only cares about natural label the other wants both. The grainfed vs grassfed is a personal taste thing and economic one.
 
Silver, the situation is irreversible.

The corporates have gained so much power through lobbying, grasping market share and worldwide dominance that they will not be turned back.

They will continue to squeeze the producers and are pretty much in a position to do the same to the consumers.

If one believes in the "innate goodness" of humanity, that one will see that belief vaporized before their eyes by watching what is developing over the next decade or so.

Never before has the world been in a place where food can be so effectively used as a weapon. The corporates are in a prime position to do so.

Political ideology plus control of food source is a lethal mix for those who do not support the prescribed way of thinking.

We are witnesses to, and participants in a mature capitalistic society that no longer has the necessary moral compass to keep things in balance.

But it was a nice ride while it lasted. "Call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye".
 
The Last Resort - Eagles

She came from Providence,
the one in Rhode Island
Where the old world shadows hang
heavy in the air
She packed her hopes and dreams
like a refugee
Just as her father came across the sea
She heard about a place people were smilin'
They spoke about the red man's way,
and how they loved the land
And they came from everywhere
to the Great Divide
Seeking a place to stand
or a place to hide

Down in the crowded bars,
out for a good time,
Can't wait to tell you all,
what it's like up there
And they called it paradise
I don't know why
Somebody laid the mountains low
while the town got high

Then the chilly winds blew down
Across the desert
through the canyons of the coast, to
the Malibu
Where the pretty people play,
hungry for power
to light their neon way
and give them things to do

Some rich men came and raped the land,
Nobody caught 'em
Put up a bunch of ugly boxes, and Jesus,
people bought 'em
And they called it paradise
The place to be
They watched the hazy sun, sinking in the sea

You can leave it all behind
and sail to Lahaina
just like the missionaries did, so many years ago
They even brought a neon sign: "Jesus is coming"
Brought the white man's burden down
Brought the white man's reign

Who will provide the grand design?
What is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more new frontier
We have got to make it here

We satisfy our endless needs and
justify our bloody deeds,
in the name of destiny and the name of God

And you can see them there,
On Sunday morning
They stand up and sing about
what it's like up there
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise,
kiss it goodbye

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7JNbd6XU14
 

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