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I had a couple hundred angus cows could walk on water too-it was frozen at the time. I can't imagine the miles old Soapie has travelled compiling his compendium of Hereford horror stories. I went out this morning and found a good old Angus cow tipped over bloated-too bad it wouldn't of been a worthless baldie we could of had a party instead of a wake lol.
 
I kind of value what another has experienced and is willing to share. From what I can see of the Spearhead, and the difference in numbers, I would imagine that it would take me 10 years to see what Soap and crew see in 1.

What I do with that information is up to me. :-)
 
I just went to their website and it does'nt say that anymore.Maybe you guy's that are easily offended got them to amend their website.

To me this thread looks like the truth hurt's some on here.

There are good cattle everywhere but GREAT cattle are few in numbers.
 
In reading all the posts and going back and looking at the website again... I don't think anyone's "feeling were hurt or thin skinned" What I read is everyone raises different kinds of cattle under different circumstances, some agree with what Saddle Butte says, others believe they could say and promote their program a little more tactfully, without lumping all purebred breeders together. But the bottom line is everyone needs to do what works for them and how it works for them, you can't worry about what your neighbor's doing. I don't believe in knocking someone else down to make myself or our cattle look better, they stand on their own, they will either work for you or they won't. when we have someone come and look at cattle and we get the story that so and so is selling bulls for X amount less than you, our reply is, good for them, this is what we need to have for our bulls and I'm sure your money will spend just as well there as here, thanks for coming by and if we can ever help you out let us know. and again, this is just MY opinion! :)
 
Yanuck said:
In reading all the posts and going back and looking at the website again... I don't think anyone's "feeling were hurt or thin skinned" What I read is everyone raises different kinds of cattle under different circumstances, some agree with what Saddle Butte says, others believe they could say and promote their program a little more tactfully, without lumping all purebred breeders together. But the bottom line is everyone needs to do what works for them and how it works for them, you can't worry about what your neighbor's doing. I don't believe in knocking someone else down to make myself or our cattle look better, they stand on their own, they will either work for you or they won't. when we have someone come and look at cattle and we get the story that so and so is selling bulls for X amount less than you, our reply is, good for them, this is what we need to have for our bulls and I'm sure your money will spend just as well there as here, thanks for coming by and if we can ever help you out let us know. and again, this is just MY opinion! :)
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:clap: :clap: :clap:

Well said Yanuck.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
...others believe they could say and promote their program a little more tactfully, without lumping all purebred breeders together.
Click to expand...
I don't believe in knocking someone else down to make myself or our cattle look better,...
Click to expand...

Yanuck, TTB...could one of you show me examples from the Saddle Butte site that backs these quotes?
 
RobertMac said:
...others believe they could say and promote their program a little more tactfully, without lumping all purebred breeders together.
Click to expand...
I don't believe in knocking someone else down to make myself or our cattle look better,...
Click to expand...

Yanuck, TTB...could one of you show me examples from the Saddle Butte site that backs these quotes?
Click to expand...

From their website:
"It seems a tremendous advantage to us that most angus seedstock producers are in a mindless race for single trait superiority while we are able to work with such excellent blood"

"If you have to dig yourself out of a mess created by the entrepreneurs of EPD's you really need to know Angus pedigrees. Otherwise you are probably looking at a black animal of mongrelized breeding"
 
RobertMac said:
...others believe they could say and promote their program a little more tactfully, without lumping all purebred breeders together.
Click to expand...
I don't believe in knocking someone else down to make myself or our cattle look better,...
Click to expand...

Yanuck, TTB...could one of you show me examples from the Saddle Butte site that backs these quotes?
Click to expand...


Their ad says" If you have to dig yourself out of a mess created by the entrepreneurs of EPD's you really need to know Angus pedigrees. Otherwise you are probably looking at a black animal of mongrelized breeding. At Saddle Butte Ranch we are trying to create range-efficient bloodstock from proven genetics using the great prepotent bulls of the past when Angus was actually a breed. We are a real world program aimed at exclusively at improving maternal function."


This is what started this thread.
Like I said I don't disagree with this line of thinking. I do think that some would take offense.
Now about "Feelings"hurt. I think many cattlemen and woman have strong convictions or they wouldn't be ranching. It's not as much as having their"widdle feelings hurt"as having to change what they believed in their program. I guess the people that weren't satisfied with what they were already doing would be willing to look for change.
:?
 
I guess you can all it satisfaction -others might call in complacency. I know myself that my cows will never have too good of feet-too tight of udders and be too easy calving. They'll never be as easy keeping as I'd like. I've never been into the warm and bubblies enough about one breed or one bloodline in a breed to think that they are the be all and end all. Just like horses-alot of people think there's one line of quarter horses that can work cattle-heck I've ridden horses that didn't have any in them were pretty good.
 
I have never seen the perfect bull. If I did see him I wouldn't be able to use him because I don't have any perfect cows.
The trouble is that once you get to good the refinements have to be smaller and smaller or you can lose the good.
 
RobertMac said:
...others believe they could say and promote their program a little more tactfully, without lumping all purebred breeders together.
Click to expand...
I don't believe in knocking someone else down to make myself or our cattle look better,...
Click to expand...

Yanuck, TTB...could one of you show me examples from the Saddle Butte site that backs these quotes?
Click to expand...

RobertMac...

I think Yanuck provided the evidence you need.

My question to you is about Yanucks statement, "I don't believe in knocking someone else down to make myself or our cattle look better." RobertMac, why don't you agree with this?

I believe cattle and the program they come from should stand on their own merit...if you can't sell the positives of what your cattle and your program have, then you need to re-evaluate your own operation, not bash and belittle other breeders, their cattle and their programs.

Probably this is what upsets me the most about most of these Kit Pharo types...just because you don't do it their way, you are a bad breeder. I don't believe Kit has bad cattle...I do believe he does not accurately represent them (i.e. I think they are "bigger framed" than what he says) so they fit his mantra and program. However if his program works for him and his customers, great. I know there are others his program does not work for.

I imagine these folks have good cattle from a good program. Then again, I'd think if you ask folks who have a long time relationship with their seedstock provider about whether they bought good cattle from a good program, they would say they do, irregardless of breed, newness or oldness of genetics, how they are developed, frame size, mature weight, birthweight, etc.

Yanuck...I still think you had the best post of the whole darn thread. Doug and NR...those are great posts too. Sorry I started this post and then got busy doing something and didn't check to see who posted since I had started the darn thing!!!

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
TTB... Right back atcha girlie, you just said a mouthful, all of which is true! :nod: :nod: :nod: :clap: :clap:
 
Yanuck said:
TTB... Right back atcha girlie, you just said a mouthful, all of which is true! :nod: :nod: :nod: :clap: :clap:
Click to expand...

Thank you. It was your post that was great however. You said it much more eloquently than I ever could have.

I do want to add, I made two edits to straighten out some grammar and spelling errors.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
TTB, I understand how those quotes could be offensive to some seedstock producers...as well they should!
I say that because I created a mess buying from "entrepreneurs of EPD's " and it took the kind of cattle Mr. O'Conner is developing to straighten it out. Like it or not, there are breeders out there that will take advantage of unknowledgeable producers...they took me to the tune of $100,000.00. It was my stupidity and an expensive lesson to learn, but I'll not defend the breeders that took advantage of me just to be cordial.

Question for you...if the breeders in an association aren't going to police their own, who will? Doesn't this create the atmosphere of "buyer beware"?

There appears to be two camps in the purebred industry...
the performance breeders...bigger, better, faster.
the maternal breeders...linebreeding for functional efficiency.
I guess it depends which camp you're in as to what one takes offense to (I'm sure you can guess which camp I'm in)!
The maternal breeders(several mentioned on the Saddle Butte site) seem to be worried that Angus are losing 'breed character'...the performance breeders believe one can use EPDs to develop whatever type cattle one wants. When do genetics become so diversified that a breed loses 'breed character'?
 
I brought this thread back up because today when I was reading the Montana Angus Directory I saw a new ad from Saddle Butte Ranch over at Geyser...

It starts out "In 2009 every calf born on this ranch will be sired by New Zealand bulls or pure Scottish Aberdeen angus bulls, or our Wye herd bulls"...

The bull listed as Pure Aberdeen Angus is Dunlouise Cortachy Boy D137 AAA # 14898814...

The New Zealand bulls pictured are Pinebank Waigroup 41/07 # 14959541
Pinebank Waigroup 14/02 # 15789168
Pinebank Waigroup 152/04 #15789169

These bulls all look plenty beefy....
I checked their website- but it looks just like me- they haven't updated it for awhile and still have their old bulls pictured....

http://www.saddlebutteranch.com/
 
Pretty big wreck with one of the Pinebank bulls in Alberta this spring-the stud in New Zealand pacxkaged the wrong semen in Angus straws-it turns out it was Simmental-kind of dragging their feet making it right.
 
We in fact had and still have this problem. The semen was Hereford, and the straws were mixed. Meaning each straw had a percentage of both bulls semen. So, half black, half white face. To date nothing has been done to rectify this problem. Dragging feet would be an understatement. The first cases were realized almost 1 year ago.

Since, I have never had anywhere close a problem like this, I am asking other breeders what a fair solution / compensation is for this type of issue? We used the semen for genetic and maternal influence and not as a terminal sire. We used on purebred black angus cows.

Has there been any previous precedence? Any feedback would be appreciated.
 

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