SMN Herf
Well-known member
I too don't know anything about that bull. I see he is a Southern boy with a straight Victor pedigree. Let me know how he works
Black Herefords
- Thread starter efb
- Start date
gallowayhereford
New member
we had a hereford bull cross the fence and bred all of our galloway cows. They are nice calves and grow big and fast. I agree though - how to get that face black??? :???:
rainie
Well-known member
Is a straight Victor pedigree a good thing or a bad thing. Genex said he's Argentina bred in their catalog. Just going by what they wrote.
A
Anonymous
Guest
rainie said:
Looks like you just misread it-- and he's really popular in Argentina...But I'd probably make the same mistake with that name- ANHINGA :???: ...
Nice looking bull-- has a good rear end on him- some muscle...Nice 5.5 frame bull--if he throws that to his calves.......
rainie
Well-known member
Yep you're right OT. Thanks for pointing it out. Like they say, the first thing that starts to go is your eyes. 
SMN Herf
Well-known member
It isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. Sometimes they can get pretty slick haired and somewhat thinner hided. Some of them are kinda refined, but, I do now there are some good ones out there. I try to watch the hair for the northern climate, but in a crossbreeding situation, it isn't quite as big a deal.
I think the picture of the bull looks pretty good. I would be interested in hearing how he works in your herd.
I believe the name Anhinga is from Florida. I have seen and used some of the North American bulls that the Argentinians have used in the past and I think that they are way ahead of some of us in terms of moderating their cattle.
Brian
loomixguy
Well-known member
For what it's worth.....in my business, over 90% of the cattle I supplement are black hided. I still have a couple of registered Hereford operations as customers, but that's about it. My one big Hereford guy goes up to Fort Keogh just about every year and brings a new bull or two home. When I see them for the first time, all I can think is: "What's not to like?" You see what you like and you like what you see.
Yet.....I'll purchase a CHB steak every time over a CAB steak at the meat case. The CAB steaks are excellent, but there is something about the CHB steak that just wraps around my tongue better. I don't know about you folks, but grain fed beef tastes a whole lot better to me than grass fed does.......
Yet.....I'll purchase a CHB steak every time over a CAB steak at the meat case. The CAB steaks are excellent, but there is something about the CHB steak that just wraps around my tongue better. I don't know about you folks, but grain fed beef tastes a whole lot better to me than grass fed does.......
SMN Herf
Well-known member
I know what you mean and I hear that quite often.
I have been in meetings where a select Hereford rib was cooked an then cut up into steaks and it was as good a steak as I have ever eaten.
I also know meat salepeople who did side by side testing of CHB and PHB at resteraunts and the hereford beef would never loose to the CAB. Many times they would put the PHB up against the Prime steaks and beat them. Many chefs wouldn't beleive it was a select product.
Brian
Blackhereford
Member
Hello all, I am new here and ran across this link. I am a black hereford breeder and would like to respond to many of the comments made in this thread.
Over and over again everyone points out that the market pays more for black cattle. Some of you state that one time you got as much for a red cow, which is anicdotal evidence at best. Is there anyone out there who really thinks there is not a bias toward black cattle?
So, for the average cattle breeder: black = more $. Especially if you don't sell by the truckload. There are 50 cattle ranchers for every one of you who sell by the truck and can "market" your cattle. Each one of them has to have a bull and can't run two herds to get the most out of crossing their cattle.
Also for all the cattle ranchers in the north, Angus and hereford cattle are not the industry standard here in the southern part of the U.S. Ranchers have a little "ear" in their cattle for many reasons. So our herds tend to have more color and get discounted because of it.
I have personally run Angus, Shorthorn, Pinzgauer, Beefmaster, Limousin, and now Hereford cattle. No matter what I run or what cow I run it on I constantly get the highest price for black baldy calves. There are always execptions (fullblood Limousin calves have done well, if you like feeding 1200#+ cows). I can't change the market and I certainly am not going to fight it.
Black herefords provide all of the benefits of the hereford cross without the discount for color.
Quality
My cows are fullblood herefords bred to a 5/8 Black Hereford bull. I will be using cattle from the Star Lake ranch in Oklahoma as my base. Anybody have a problem with their program? I will put my calves up against any registered Hereford breeder's. In fact I will be doing exactly that. The Black Hereford breed is new and if it does not produce results it will not last.
It is just a color change in response to the market demand. Every breed has a black line. Plain and simple. I am not a die hard fan of any cattle breed. I have chosen this beed because I think it can make me the most money in the specific market I am in. If you have a problem with the line of cattle used to create the breed, point it out. General statements against the breed are ignorant of the reality cattle breeders face every time they drop their calves off at the sale barn.
Over and over again everyone points out that the market pays more for black cattle. Some of you state that one time you got as much for a red cow, which is anicdotal evidence at best. Is there anyone out there who really thinks there is not a bias toward black cattle?
So, for the average cattle breeder: black = more $. Especially if you don't sell by the truckload. There are 50 cattle ranchers for every one of you who sell by the truck and can "market" your cattle. Each one of them has to have a bull and can't run two herds to get the most out of crossing their cattle.
Also for all the cattle ranchers in the north, Angus and hereford cattle are not the industry standard here in the southern part of the U.S. Ranchers have a little "ear" in their cattle for many reasons. So our herds tend to have more color and get discounted because of it.
I have personally run Angus, Shorthorn, Pinzgauer, Beefmaster, Limousin, and now Hereford cattle. No matter what I run or what cow I run it on I constantly get the highest price for black baldy calves. There are always execptions (fullblood Limousin calves have done well, if you like feeding 1200#+ cows). I can't change the market and I certainly am not going to fight it.
Black herefords provide all of the benefits of the hereford cross without the discount for color.
Quality
My cows are fullblood herefords bred to a 5/8 Black Hereford bull. I will be using cattle from the Star Lake ranch in Oklahoma as my base. Anybody have a problem with their program? I will put my calves up against any registered Hereford breeder's. In fact I will be doing exactly that. The Black Hereford breed is new and if it does not produce results it will not last.
It is just a color change in response to the market demand. Every breed has a black line. Plain and simple. I am not a die hard fan of any cattle breed. I have chosen this beed because I think it can make me the most money in the specific market I am in. If you have a problem with the line of cattle used to create the breed, point it out. General statements against the breed are ignorant of the reality cattle breeders face every time they drop their calves off at the sale barn.
Soapweed
Well-known member
It is a given that black baldy calves are as desirable of an end product as there is. Black baldy steers are market toppers, and they taste good. Black baldy heifers are also great feeder cattle, or they can be used as wonderful mother cows. They really shine if a third cross, possibly of a continental breed, is the bull to which they are bred. This third cross (1/4 Hereford 1/4 Angus and 1/2 continental should be a terminal cross, and used for feeder purposes only.
Okay, with this scenario in mind, why not have a straight Angus cow herd, and buy Hereford bulls to put on them? Or, have an all Hereford cow herd and buy Angus bulls to put on them? Replacement heifers could either be bought or some of the cows in the herd be bred to bulls of the same breed to retain replacement heifers from.
I guess I don't see the need to fiddle around with an off shoot breed of unknown capabilities when it would be so easy to go with straight Herefords and straight Angus to start with. Then you know that the result will be the highly desirable F1 cross.
These are just my thoughts. Anyone is entirely welcome to shoot them right out of the sky. :wink:
Okay, with this scenario in mind, why not have a straight Angus cow herd, and buy Hereford bulls to put on them? Or, have an all Hereford cow herd and buy Angus bulls to put on them? Replacement heifers could either be bought or some of the cows in the herd be bred to bulls of the same breed to retain replacement heifers from.
I guess I don't see the need to fiddle around with an off shoot breed of unknown capabilities when it would be so easy to go with straight Herefords and straight Angus to start with. Then you know that the result will be the highly desirable F1 cross.
These are just my thoughts. Anyone is entirely welcome to shoot them right out of the sky. :wink:
High Plains
Well-known member
Once again, I tend to agree with Mr. Weed. :wink: Definitely not a "weedy" line of thinking. Turn a poppin' good Angus bull on those fullblood Hereford cows and you've answered the market demand for black baldies. I just can't imagine the gene pool of the Black Hereford breed being large enough to provide nearly the selection opportunities (or proof in the numbers, just what Soapweed wanted to hear :lol: ) that you can get through purebred Angus and Hereford cattle.
As well, if a cow-herd is not very large, then a person might sure be better off to purchase replacement females to re-stock that Hereford herd. Gives you a chance to pick through other people's larger genetic offering and it's not much fun to feed just a few replacement heifers through the winter if you don't have to. Economists also say it's cheaper to purchase replacements for any sized operation, but I'm not going to say that I agree or disagree with that in fact or theory. Depends on your operation, I'm quite sure.
As well, if a cow-herd is not very large, then a person might sure be better off to purchase replacement females to re-stock that Hereford herd. Gives you a chance to pick through other people's larger genetic offering and it's not much fun to feed just a few replacement heifers through the winter if you don't have to. Economists also say it's cheaper to purchase replacements for any sized operation, but I'm not going to say that I agree or disagree with that in fact or theory. Depends on your operation, I'm quite sure.
Blackhereford
Member
As to Gene pool, that is the beauty of the Black Hereford breed. I buy one bull and as many regular Hereford females as I want. The entire Hereford breed is my genetic base. Black is dominant so while I may be selecting for it, I don't have to cull good cows just to get black. Even the red calves can be used as "breeding stock" like Paints.
Fullblood Hereford and Angus cattle are not the best cattle for every situation. In the south you really need some Brama to get the best results out of your cows if you want them to do it on their own. A red Hereford will produce some red calves. A black one won't (assuming it is breed up to have a homo color trait). I can breed a black hereford to any cow and get the right color. Everybody around me is running a black bull now (they ain't all Angus either). The herds are predominantly black or solid red. So they can turn my bull in no matter what they have and get a majority of black baldy calves.
Sounds pretty simple to me.
Fullblood Hereford and Angus cattle are not the best cattle for every situation. In the south you really need some Brama to get the best results out of your cows if you want them to do it on their own. A red Hereford will produce some red calves. A black one won't (assuming it is breed up to have a homo color trait). I can breed a black hereford to any cow and get the right color. Everybody around me is running a black bull now (they ain't all Angus either). The herds are predominantly black or solid red. So they can turn my bull in no matter what they have and get a majority of black baldy calves.
Sounds pretty simple to me.
andybob
Well-known member
Welcome to the board Blackhereford, but I take exeption to the coment quoted above, the Tuli does not allow any black at all, other breeds that come to mind that do not allow black include; Bonamara, Afrikana, Nkone,Sussex and North Devon.Blackhereford said:
The Tuli is also an excellent replacement for the Brahman in the more severe hot and parasite prone areas.
http://www.tuli.co.za/
Blackhereford
Member
I should have qualified my statement by adding "commercially successful". The breeds you have listed are not commercially significant in that I am pretty sure they represent less than one percent of the American cattle herd collectively.
Every breed seems to have its "purists". Look at a Limousin or beefmaster breed magazine and you will see breeders advertising who are against the "black" movements in their breed. I just went by our local sale barn this afternoon and watched for 10 minutes. The difference between the black calves and the colored calves was 20 to 30 cents across the board. Cattle ranching is like few other businesses. The majority of ranchers lose money. So if you can lose money and are fine with that, then the hard facts of the market can be ignored.
Every breed seems to have its "purists". Look at a Limousin or beefmaster breed magazine and you will see breeders advertising who are against the "black" movements in their breed. I just went by our local sale barn this afternoon and watched for 10 minutes. The difference between the black calves and the colored calves was 20 to 30 cents across the board. Cattle ranching is like few other businesses. The majority of ranchers lose money. So if you can lose money and are fine with that, then the hard facts of the market can be ignored.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Blackherford, I got to disagree with you...I've used a Reg. Angus bull on my Beefmaster and Brahman cross heifers and have gotten black, red, brindle, and mott faces. I quit using Angus when I discovered a 5-10 pound increase in birth weights from the crossbreeding and having to pull calves. I breed Lasater Beefmaster bulls to heifers and rarely touch one!
I definitely agree with the black bias at the sale barn(and I don't advertise against black Beefmasters...YET, but got out of BBU's southeast satellite group because of their promotion of blackness). This is the packers way of trying to bring consistency to meat. The problem is a black hide doesn't the meat will be consistent. It takes the right genetics and consistent genetics that match the environment of the cow herd to produce consistency. And I can't emphasize matching the environment enough! If you want black hided cattle, use good(the right) Angus!
I definitely agree with the black bias at the sale barn(and I don't advertise against black Beefmasters...YET, but got out of BBU's southeast satellite group because of their promotion of blackness). This is the packers way of trying to bring consistency to meat. The problem is a black hide doesn't the meat will be consistent. It takes the right genetics and consistent genetics that match the environment of the cow herd to produce consistency. And I can't emphasize matching the environment enough! If you want black hided cattle, use good(the right) Angus!
Blackhereford
Member
RobertMac, what are you disagreeing with exactly? I know a black does not automatically mean a black calf it just increases the chance.
As to the Beefmasters... My brother and I raised beefmasters for 10 years and loved them as to calving and health. I just got tired of losing 10 to 25% of the price of the calf depending on how wild his color was (it was always the best calf otherwise). As soon as I ran my first Black Limo bull on them, we had increases in weaning weights and the majority of the calves were black. Four years later our commercial cows are about 1/2 Beefmaster and 1/2 Brangus or Limo, but all of them have a solid color.
Could you explain why you quit the satellite group because of the black issue? I think that is the heart of this entire discussion. If you can have all of the traits of the Beefmaster without the color discounts...why not? I almost picked black Beefmasters over Black Herefords for my purebred herd. If color is not important but is very easy to select for, why are so many of you against it? It doesn't change the cattle as you can always breed back up and hopefully you are moving forward.
As to Angus, you state that ...
"I quit using Angus when I discovered a 5-10 pound increase in birth weights ...."
and then you say"... If you want black hided cattle, use good(the right) Angus!"
You dislike the results of your Angus bull and then suggest I use an Angus to get black calves. Why would I use an Angus when I can use a Black Limo Bull and get smaller birth weights and higher weaning weights all with a black hide? (Obviously, I like Black Limos. The only thing I have seen sell better is Black Baldies.)
(Note: the above discussion is assuming a comercial operation. For my Purebred cattle, I am selecting what the market pays the most for -BLACK BALDIES - coupled with the type of cows most of my future costomers CURRENTLY raise: solid black or red crossbred cattle.)
[/quote]
As to the Beefmasters... My brother and I raised beefmasters for 10 years and loved them as to calving and health. I just got tired of losing 10 to 25% of the price of the calf depending on how wild his color was (it was always the best calf otherwise). As soon as I ran my first Black Limo bull on them, we had increases in weaning weights and the majority of the calves were black. Four years later our commercial cows are about 1/2 Beefmaster and 1/2 Brangus or Limo, but all of them have a solid color.
Could you explain why you quit the satellite group because of the black issue? I think that is the heart of this entire discussion. If you can have all of the traits of the Beefmaster without the color discounts...why not? I almost picked black Beefmasters over Black Herefords for my purebred herd. If color is not important but is very easy to select for, why are so many of you against it? It doesn't change the cattle as you can always breed back up and hopefully you are moving forward.
As to Angus, you state that ...
"I quit using Angus when I discovered a 5-10 pound increase in birth weights ...."
and then you say"... If you want black hided cattle, use good(the right) Angus!"
You dislike the results of your Angus bull and then suggest I use an Angus to get black calves. Why would I use an Angus when I can use a Black Limo Bull and get smaller birth weights and higher weaning weights all with a black hide? (Obviously, I like Black Limos. The only thing I have seen sell better is Black Baldies.)
(Note: the above discussion is assuming a comercial operation. For my Purebred cattle, I am selecting what the market pays the most for -BLACK BALDIES - coupled with the type of cows most of my future costomers CURRENTLY raise: solid black or red crossbred cattle.)
[/quote]
RobertMac
Well-known member
[/quote]Blackhereford said:RobertMac, what are you disagreeing with exactly? I know a black does not automatically mean a black calf it just increases the chance.
You're contradicting yourself.Blackhereford said:
As to the Beefmasters... My brother and I raised beefmasters for 10 years and loved them as to calving and health. I just got tired of losing 10 to 25% of the price of the calf depending on how wild his color was (it was always the best calf otherwise). As soon as I ran my first Black Limo bull on them, we had increases in weaning weights and the majority of the calves were black. Four years later our commercial cows are about 1/2 Beefmaster and 1/2 Brangus or Limo, but all of them have a solid color.
Did you try selling your cattle through Nolan Ryan Tender Aged Beef?
I agree off colored, eared calves take a big hit at the sale barn...that's why I sell meat!
Could you explain why you quit the satellite group because of the black issue? I think that is the heart of this entire discussion. If you can have all of the traits of the Beefmaster without the color discounts...why not? I almost picked black Beefmasters over Black Herefords for my purebred herd. If color is not important but is very easy to select for, why are so many of you against it? It doesn't change the cattle as you can always breed back up and hopefully you are moving forward.
Selecting for hide color in an off color breed is single trait selection. Beefmasters should be selected for the six essentials. Where did the black come from in Beefmasters(and the other off color breeds)...Angus. Although BBU allows it, it goes against what makes a pure breed. I've seen the difference that using foundation Beefmasters make.
As to Angus, you state that ...
"I quit using Angus when I discovered a 5-10 pound increase in birth weights ...."
and then you say"... If you want black hided cattle, use good(the right) Angus!"
You dislike the results of your Angus bull and then suggest I use an Angus to get black calves. Why would I use an Angus when I can use a Black Limo Bull and get smaller birth weights and higher weaning weights all with a black hide? (Obviously, I like Black Limos. The only thing I have seen sell better is Black Baldies.)
I didn't like the results of 'that' Angus bull and what I mean by 'the right' Angus bull is a linebred bull from an operation that selects for functional efficiency.
The 'you' in my last sentence wasn't meant for you specifically. The beauty of this business is that we all get to do it as we see fit and we all have to live with our own decisions.
I enjoy the discussion!
(Note: the above discussion is assuming a comercial operation. For my Purebred cattle, I am selecting what the market pays the most for -BLACK BALDIES - coupled with the type of cows most of my future costomers CURRENTLY raise: solid black or red crossbred cattle.)
Blackhereford
Member
I will happily stipulate that if you breed anything to a longhorn or beefmaster (and other multipatterned cattle) you can not garantee what you will get. But in two generations that problem can be solved.
BUT... because of the HUGE price difference for black calves, most herds around me are primarily black to start with. I have seen an increase in uniformity of color I see each time I go to the sale barn. Therefore, anyone who is running strait or crosses of angus, brangus, or the black purebreds of Limos, Beefmasters and Galhiegh (sp?) can run a black hereford and get baldy calves. Which is MOST (but not all) of the people around me.
I know there are "boutique" solutions to get more money with value added programs. The problem many cattle producers face is their herd size. When I ran Black Limousin bulls I looked into Laura's Lean Beef but they required 100 head a year. That excludes 79% of all cattle ranchers in the US (USDA data -2005) including me. Most of them don't want to be salesmen. They just want their cows to speak for themselves and like it or not, color does the loudest talking.
You keep using Beefmasters as a reason not to mess with an established breed. I believe the story of the Beefmaster breed is exactly why everyone is wrong about new breeds (Black Hereford) and what they will or won't do. Beefmaster is a breed that one man created from scratch in his lifetime. There is nothing "pure" about the Beefmaster breed. The six essentials dictate what you keep and what you don't.
(Please note: I hope my tone is not too combative. I am an attorney by trade. I appreciate the perspectives I have read here and I enjoy a lively discussion. )
BUT... because of the HUGE price difference for black calves, most herds around me are primarily black to start with. I have seen an increase in uniformity of color I see each time I go to the sale barn. Therefore, anyone who is running strait or crosses of angus, brangus, or the black purebreds of Limos, Beefmasters and Galhiegh (sp?) can run a black hereford and get baldy calves. Which is MOST (but not all) of the people around me.
I know there are "boutique" solutions to get more money with value added programs. The problem many cattle producers face is their herd size. When I ran Black Limousin bulls I looked into Laura's Lean Beef but they required 100 head a year. That excludes 79% of all cattle ranchers in the US (USDA data -2005) including me. Most of them don't want to be salesmen. They just want their cows to speak for themselves and like it or not, color does the loudest talking.
You keep using Beefmasters as a reason not to mess with an established breed. I believe the story of the Beefmaster breed is exactly why everyone is wrong about new breeds (Black Hereford) and what they will or won't do. Beefmaster is a breed that one man created from scratch in his lifetime. There is nothing "pure" about the Beefmaster breed. The six essentials dictate what you keep and what you don't.
(Please note: I hope my tone is not too combative. I am an attorney by trade. I appreciate the perspectives I have read here and I enjoy a lively discussion.
)RobertMac
Well-known member
Blackhereford said:
No thin skin here...lively discussions are where we have a chance to learn.
How do you define "pure"?
As for Beefmasters, I specify Lasater Beefmasters because they have been closed-herd, linebred for around 70 years now. The Lasater Beefmaster herds are as "pure" a breed as any established breed and probably more "pure" than all but the linebred herds of the established breeds.
I don't dispute the price difference for black calves.
The problem I have with the black hide fad is that doesn't necessarily lead to better, more consistent meat to satisfy the consumer. I believe quality meat comes from calves raised, birth to slaughter, with no stress. No bad dispositions, sickness, or weight loss due to lack of feed. Quality meat comes from quality cattle that are adapted to the environment they live in and are well managed by the rancher that raises them. Phenotype(quality meat) comes from genetics, endocrine system, nervous system, and environment and the inner action between these. Color has nothing to do with this. The industry should pay for the quality of meat produced, not the color of the hide.
As for the "boutique" solutions, I'm not aware that Nolan Ryan has a requirement for number of animals to get into the program. And for your USDA data, it is my understanding that some 90% of cattle producers have less than 100 head and account for roughly half the total cattle production...why would "boutique" programs want to exclude the half of cattle production that would be their most likely suppliers?
If we producers want more money out of the industry, we are going to have to do more jobs to get it. We had better not rely on packers to pay us more! The packers are getting exactly what they want right now...falling live cattle prices!!!
scout
Well-known member
i ve just read 14 pages and i think im going to start raising black buffalo! lol