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Bull Buying

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for my maternal bulls i look for a bull that is deep, long, thick, large capacity, big nuts, modrate framed (4.5-5.5 FS)with calving ease, sound feet and legs, easy keeping, docile, moderate marbling, large ribeye, good hair and mature very early and reach mature wt quickly. If anybody knows of a bull that will do all of those things other than Cherokee Canyon let me know. I don't care what breed or color he is if he will do those things.

For A terminal bull i pick a low BW, high YW, high marbleing and high ribeye Char from Lindskov Theil.
 
Northern Rancher,

Of course if you breed a doggy EXT to doggy 600U you'll end up with a piece of crap. Junk in junk out. No mystery there. Never said this cross was the beef industry's salvation. Just said it was the best bull I ever saw. Best bull I ever owned was a 600U x Right Time.

I don't just look at the showring. I have watched more than a few corn fed bulls melt down in the pasture and founder due to the hot rations they are fed. The showring does allow open minded producers to see how mature cattle travel that have been fed these hot rations and compare their phenotypes to other cattle. You sound like one of those "ALL I NEED IS MY SIRE SUMMARY" types.

I look at everything.

My calves have prove themselves in the feedyard and on the rail.

My weakness WAS fertility in the cow herd. Simmental cross shaped that up.


Boarne Texas, that bull is too narrow in the hip for me and the hip doesn't carry down far enough. Other than that, he looks pretty good. I like his rib.



~SH~
 
Looks like I would be a good bull for Aaron..I have a great disposition, sound legs and feet, great family treemuscled, and believe me, I got BIG nuts!!!

starting to lose my hair though.......
Click to expand...

So am I to assume you are of Butler breeding? :wink:

I need some really curly haired thing. They heat up and are heat stressed more often, but the flies don't bother them even half as much as the straight haired Herefords. I have one curly haired bull out of 4 we got. Flies don't bother him or any of the daughters that inherit the curly hair trait.
 
I didn't mean doggy I meant rank-I only goit about 50 of that cross so a pretty fair sample-an EXT daughter reminds me alot like a whitetail doe but maybe just a bit wilder. Hate to rain on your showribbons but a sire summary will take you alot furthur than any showring will. We raise probably 90 percent of the bulls we use ourselves-calve on grass-finish all our own calves-we just averaged a 90 buck premium on our second cuts so I think things are going not too bad. Cattle shows are for whiskey and gossip as far as I'm concerned. I'm almost ashamed when my kids win in 4H -gets me thinking I'm doing something wrong here. Hey if the border opens you want a load of EXT's I'll be glad to send some.
 
Northern Rancher,

I am well aware of EXT's disposition.

Not interested in any EXT daughters that are not correctly crossed to strenthen EXT's disposition weakness. EXT's progeny's disposition depends on what he's being crossed with.

Everyone knows what EXT's fault is. That still didn't stop him from being the number 1 registration bull in the breed for a couple years did it?

I don't show cattle so you aren't raining on my show ribbons but a sire summary won't tell you anything about conformation or ability to travel.

I select bulls based on every available tool and I look for opportunity in someone elses lemons.

Every bull has faults. The key is in finding bulls that strengthen your weaknesses and has faults you can live with. Kinda like marriage huh?



~SH~
 
I have found there are far too many people that will pick their bulls on one or two traits to the extreme and literally not give a damn if he has anything else going for him. I watched in absolute horror people chase to the extremes muscle without milk, calveing ease without growth, soundness with nothing else going for them and those that shop via their sire summary or show records only. Those same people I find that like one of those shopping catalogues (say, the sire summary) usually abhor the other one (the show catalogue). The "practical" cowboys hate the showring and show cattle people look at alot of commercial herds like a girl who is butt ugly but can still cook...you appreciate her but sure aren't going to pursue her...we are all still very visual people. Looks DO matter. Even on a typing forum. I totally appreciate someone who knows the weaknesses in their herd (or their marriage for that matter ) but I find way more often than not the bull buyers are comeing and picking the "fads" and no real consideration for the strong points of a bull against his weaker ones and certainly no respect for what that bull is capable of in their herd or their own management conditions. It is exasperating, to stand behind a bull that was poorly chosen in the first place, much the same as I find in many people who don't quite suit my personality, I feel compelled to critisize even though I try and tell myself we all (I'd like to think we all) have something to contribute even if we don't agree. Really some people I just like and others I don't and just try to hang out more with the ones that suit me and try not to disrespect the ones that, to me, are a few nickels short of a dollar. Choose your bulls and playmates carefully and have a good day from Canada!
 
SH you were the one who assumed that I was a sire summary slave-I never once mentioned E.P.D's in any post of mine-god could you imagine be married to an 'ext' type girl nice udder but pms 24/7 I shake at the thought lol. Were breeding ours Horned Hereford this year so should settle them a bit-Ty's riding three tyoung horses a'i'ing this year that will be glad when breeding is done I'm sure.
 
As a seedstocl producer, I think it is my responibility to produce the type of cattle that will make my customers money. We did the fad thing for a while and we found out very fast that popular pedigrees, chasin fads, and EPDs isn't the thing to do. We use bulls that will work in our enviroment but will also make you money in the feedlot. Their is a fine line there but you need to stay on it. My customers do it all, sell right off the cow, background, and feed all the way out. We are working with a feedlot and know exactly what works and what doesn't. I am not just talking about growth. Some cattle perform better, finish faster, and have a ideal size carcass, but some finish faster because the dispostion is better or go the other way and finish faster because they are too small of cattle and you don't sell enough lbs, or to big and getted docked that way. We have even found out that certain breeds and crosses tend to get sick easier. So we try to keep everything balanced for our customers.

As far as who should a commercial man buy his bull from. It needs to be someone you are comfortable with, they need to have better cattle that yourself, someone that runs cattle the way you do, and someone with a great service department. Alot of people sell you a bull then you don't here from them until it is time to sell bulls again next year. We keep in touch with our customers as much as possible. Find buyers for their calves. Get feedlot and carcass info back to them so they can understand what they have and what needs to be done. It is a big responsibility to supply seedstock to the commercial cattlemen, but it is also pretty darn fun.
 
Commercial bull buyers are hard to figure sometimes. There are way too many endpoint variables for one bull to be all things to all people.

The ones who are interested in seeing their prospective herd bulls at weaning and yearling are the ones who are "on top of the game" to me.

More than once I have seen a poor calf at weaning be the best "looker" in the pen as a 2 year old.

Data usually don't lie, but looks can be deceiving.
 
Wouldn't it be kind of interesting if they showed cattle loose in the ring-the judge ride in there on horseback and sort off his top three picks or whatever. Take away the 'halter power' etc. Or better yet make everyone wear baggy coveralls and rubber boots like in South Africa lol It's funny listening to PB guys trying to decide what cutie they should get to lead their critter to impress the judge. Cattle shows are a great place to network and socialize but as a place to pick cattle......wellllll. Though I do admit the cattle winning today are probably alot closer to useful than the giraffes that used to clean up.
 
Jonathon Fox III out of Lloydminister used to do that NR, off his Morgan horses and a big 'ol stogey hanging out of his mouth! Was a real good judge in my opinion but no, you don't see that much anymore! Useful traits and a balance is the key, also respect for others opinions...
I try to practice these everyday. Have a good day all!
 
NR: "Though I do admit the cattle winning today are probably alot closer to useful than the giraffes that used to clean up."
Click to expand...

There you go! In the angus breed it used to be that the show ring winners were the most disfunctional cattle you could own.

Now thickness is important, EPDs are represented, and frames are more moderate.

You find cattle that do well in the showring and also do well in the Sire Summary but you have to look for them. EXT is an example of a bull that did both. If it wasn't for that disposition problem. He corrected a lot of udder problems though from the race horses of days gone by.

The red angus breed seems to be even closer in the bulls that excell in both areas like Cherokee Canyon.

Good post BRG! Buying from someone from a similar environment is good advise.



~SH~
 
Thanks SH for the comment. But now I have to disagree with yours.

When you talk about Cherokee Canyon doing good in both areas, I have to disagree. Personally I feel he is hurting the breed way more than he ever helped it. I have been all over the country marketing my own and several other Red Angus breeders cattle. I have seen 100's of his sons and daughters and it scares me of what is happening. For the most part his daughters don't have good udders, they don't have much length of body, not a very good top line, I have seen some feet problems, and the scariest one yet, is calving difficulties out of his daughters. I have heard as high as 60% of his daughters need help calving.

They sell good because they are the fad right now, he took a good photo, and has the EPDs that most are chasing. He is the most popular bull ever in the breed, but I am afraid of the long term affect. I haven't ever used him or a son and don't plan on it either.
 
#1 Scrotum.... Got to have it or it don't make a bit of differance on anything else.
#2, Feet..
#3, Teats
#4, birthweight
#5 weaning weight, What works for your operation.
#6 disposition.
 
Hahaha!

These bull selection topics always end up this way.

One man's gold becomes another man's mud.

I don't think there has ever been a bull alive that hasn't received mixed reviews because no two herds have the exact same needs.

Bulls will receive different reviews depending on the environment, depending on the genetic makeup of the herd, depending on selling in the barn or retained ownership, depending on the feeding program, depending on the calving program, and many other variables.

I have no doubts what you are telling me is true. On the other hand, I have no doubts that Cherokee Canyon has worked well in other herds.

I do appreciate your comments and your willingness to "mix it up". LOL!

How about your thoughts on Canyon himself?


Which program works better for you, Leachman or Buffalo Creek?



~SH~
 
I meant the judge on horseback and the cattle loose-no halters-like to see that. Was the old EXT bull actually shown-coming from the N Bar I kinda doubt it. There haven't been many showring bulls that went on to become mainstays of the breed. I watch the commercial pen shows at Agribition that's about it-one trip to the 'children of the corn' in Denver was enough for me though.
 
I think the original Canyon did a good job on most aspects. He did lack performance but his daughters are very good sound cows, maybe a little to much milk for some areas of the country. I have a few of these in my herd and what I like the most is their easy fleshing ability they seem to have.

As far as the 2 ranches you asked about. I have done business with both but not alot with either. Buf. Crk. has a good herd of cows for their area they seem to have good customer service for their customers, but I don't think they have enough bone for my liking and to much Cherokee. I like cows that are around a 6 frame. My customers are demanding that they are at least this big, but I try not to get any bigger than that. Leachman are the King of marketing and have connections all over the world. I have heard of some bad things they have done, but this is all hearsay. I was disappointed though at their dispersal sale. I thought the cows would be better than what they were. Most of the bulls they sell now are from cooperators from all over the country so the consistancy isn't really their for me either.

Of all the sales I went to this spring, I would have to say that Piepers out of NE had the best set of bulls, and I bought one there. It cost me alot but that is the kind of bulls I need to raise for my customers.
 
What lot # did you buy at Piepers?

Send me a private message if you'd like to keep that confidential.

A good friend has a catalog. You have me curious.

I'd love to see your cattle someday. Good chance I flew over them. There is two herds of red cattle that really stuck out in my mind. One was just E. of Meadow E. of Hwy 73 the other was just a few miles N. and about a mile West of Bison. Both really good deep bodied thick red cattle.

If you want to know exactly what I like in cattle pheontype, look no further than Dave Lensgrav's cattle. That is the type of cattle that appeal to my eye as long as the cows can handle the birthweights.

To my way of thinking, if you are not pulling A FEW calves, you are sacrificing performance in the feedlot.

I'm with you on the 6 frames too. I like a 1250 lb. cow with a 6 frame.

Send me a catalog!

Scott Huber
Kadoka, SD
 
I don't remember for sure but I think it was lot 16. Those red herds you saw were probably Sodak's. Our ranch is just east of Timber Lake.
 

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