Bundy Ranch

[Denny]

Prior to the 1930's if you owned the water right in an area you controlled the land. In most of the west, without water you are done. No farming or grazing, even homesteads wouldn't be possible without water. We own the water rights all over the grazing allotment we use. Even if we didn't graze, no one else could because they wouldn't have water. So prior to the Taylor Grazing act of the 1930's even though it was public land, it was almost like private land. We think of our allotment as "our" land because we have generations of blood, sweat and tears invested in it. 99% of ranchers take better care of public land than the "public" does. WE don't leave trash everywhere, defecate behind every bush near campsites without covering it up, start wild land fires from campfires or stupidity, tear up meadows and riparian areas with atvs, shoot signs and gates and leave empty casings everywhere, ect

The Taylor grazing act was needed to rein in large corporate ranches who would flood the range with to many cattle and devastate the resource. They would move the cows after the grass was gone but the damage was done. The taylor act put regulation in place to protect the resource from over grazing. It ended free grazing and folks who owned the water rights and had homesteads and private land had priority over roving outfits with home bases in different states. My great, great grandfather was awarded our grazing rights and we have kept them in our family ever since. They have a cash value if we choose to sell them that is whatever the market dictates. Only the person or ranch that owns the grazing right can graze cattle on each allotment. Currently, each cow/calf unit is worth about $4000 to buy that grazing right. That does not include the animal. We pay approximately $1.85 per AUM from May 15th to Nov. 1st. That is not a charge per AUM like you pay for private land leases. It is a fee on the grazing right that we own. For that Right, you get to deal with the public 24/7. You also get government regulation that rarely makes sense. It is not a free lunch.

Mr. Bundy maintains his rights from before the taylor grazing act. The courts have ruled against him and he must believe he doesn't need to comply because he disagrees with the ruling. While I sympathize with him, I don't see how he will win this. The government backs the BLM with the endangered species act. The current political climate is against him and throw in these radical environmental groups who dictate policy for the BLM and Forest Service I cant see how he wins. I commend his fight and see his point. apparently 80 million buffalo never stepped on a turtle but 1000 cows will hunt them down and kick them over ledges just for fun. I hope this epistle clears up things a little. It is a complex and emotional issue. It comes down to folks are tired of mismanagement and out right war carried out on them by the BLM. The ranger managers used to be people who had experience in ranching, mining, logging, ect. Now they are here to SAVE the west from the evil influence of greedy, ignorant ranchers. They have degrees from Delaware State and have never seen a cow til they arrive to change the world. This issue combines all this emotion and distrust and adds flak jackets and police dogs and tazers and you have the complete cluster it became. Thanks for having an open mind and asking questions instead of just assuming the Bundys were wrong. They aren't perfect, but I'd submit most people from this site might react likewise if we walked in Mr. Bundys boots. PM me if ya need more info.

I am happy to see the BLM blinked and hope cooler heads prevail. For the good of the land and the cattle and the families and the federal officials. Now would be a wonderful time for leadership from this joke of a president.

What does an aum consist of? and $1.85 is that per day,week,month or for the duration?

An AUM is Animal Unit Measure. It equals 1 cow/calf unit per month of graze. $1.85 is a fee on the AUM for each pair per month for the duration of said permit. Usually May through October depending on each ranges elevation, moisture, ect. Do not confuse the $1.85 with what you pay for a lease on private land. 2 completely separate things as I explained. Hope this helps.

I guess I don't understand then you pay $1.85 per pair per month is there more money paid above that or just fence and water improvements. I pay rent then I get to fix fence,fix roads spray weeds all on my own dime and may not be the renter next season. I lease some hay land from the DNR $8 an acre plus I pay land taxes for a whole year and anyone can walk all over it thuogh few do.

 

[per]

It was only a matter of time before we go from a cultural and philosophical to a logistical conversation. There are more factors involved in your question Denny than replies to this thread. The pure numbers don't tell the whole story although someone I am sure can and will answer your question and someone else will without considering any other aspect have a fit and claim unfairness or something to that effect.

This conversation surprisingly stayed on course to the relationship between the government and it's citizens and the governments overt and hidden intentions as well as the dispositions holders overt and hidden intentions. We have witnessed mistruths, deception and aggression from the government and don't seem to know everything from the viewpoint of the leaseholder. What we do know is there appears to be an agenda that is offside to the thinking of many of us that care about security of tenure and property rights as our governments continue to legislate themselves more power over what we thought was our domain.

There seems to be five or six sides to this story and even more concerning is how little coverage there is on this conversation in the mainstream media. An explanation of that came from the tweet of one of my Provincial representatives saying if you endorse X our government will quit using your news agency.

So to get into the conversation of "gee that's a good deal why are you bitching" argument kind of missed the whole conversation here. Don't get me wrong, those questions should be asked but unless we know where our government is driving the boat, and unless we agree with the direction then it will be all a moot argument. The leaseholders will be the first to fall but you will be in the crosshairs next.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

It was only a matter of time before we go from a cultural and philosophical to a logistical conversation. There are more factors involved in your question Denny than replies to this thread. The pure numbers don't tell the whole story although someone I am sure can and will answer your question and someone else will without considering any other aspect have a fit and claim unfairness or something to that effect.

This conversation surprisingly stayed on course to the relationship between the government and it's citizens and the governments overt and hidden intentions as well as the dispositions holders overt and hidden intentions. We have witnessed mistruths, deception and aggression from the government and don't seem to know everything from the viewpoint of the leaseholder. What we do know is there appears to be an agenda that is offside to the thinking of many of us that care about security of tenure and property rights as our governments continue to legislate themselves more power over what we thought was our domain.

There seems to be five or six sides to this story and even more concerning is how little coverage there is on this conversation in the mainstream media. An explanation of that came from the tweet of one of my Provincial representatives saying if you endorse X our government will quit using your news agency.

So to get into the conversation of "gee that's a good deal why are you bitching" argument kind of missed the whole conversation here. Don't get me wrong, those questions should be asked but unless we know where our government is driving the boat, and unless we agree with the direction then it will be all a moot argument. The leaseholders will be the first to fall but you will be in the crosshairs next.

I hear you, With the PFRA disbanding they are offering the patrons as far as I know the same deal that other lease holders. All I have heard for years is how cheap our lease land is but when the PFRA patrons are offered the same deal they figure it's to expensive. :roll:

 

[leanin' H]

What does an aum consist of? and $1.85 is that per day,week,month or for the duration?

An AUM is Animal Unit Measure. It equals 1 cow/calf unit per month of graze. $1.85 is a fee on the AUM for each pair per month for the duration of said permit. Usually May through October depending on each ranges elevation, moisture, ect. Do not confuse the $1.85 with what you pay for a lease on private land. 2 completely separate things as I explained. Hope this helps.

I guess I don't understand then you pay $1.85 per pair per month is there more money paid above that or just fence and water improvements. I pay rent then I get to fix fence,fix roads spray weeds all on my own dime and may not be the renter next season. I lease some hay land from the DNR $8 an acre plus I pay land taxes for a whole year and anyone can walk all over it thuogh few do.

We have discussed this til i am blue in the face! Do a search for the thread where i explained public land grazing rights. The facts are all there. If you have a private land lease that requires you to spray weeds and fix fence and roads and it costs you a lot of money per month that is between you and the landowner. If it doesnt work for you get out of it. On a public grazing allotment you have ZERO control. You are told when to turn out and come home, when to leave early. You can't dig a post hole without an antiquities act survey being done first which can take years. You could never spray weeds without an environmental impact statement. You cannot lock gates or stop the public from camping or off-roading or hunting. (Not that i would want to except when they leave trash, shoot gate posts off, shoot cows in the bag with a .22 and stick arrows through a replacement heifer) A private lease and a public grazing allotment are about as far from being the same thing as running cows in Minnesota compared to Utah. We both have cows and then everything else is different!

If all we can do is argue about who has the better lease than we are already beaten. This was about the federal governement over reach not grazing permits. Bundy will not win this in the end. The courts will never overturn this. To me, he wanted to go out with a bang by using this situation to shed a light on the BLM and thier mis-management of everything they touch. I am tired of defending my opinion. I guess some of ya don't get it and that is your right. :?

 

[Anonymous]

An AUM is Animal Unit Measure. It equals 1 cow/calf unit per month of graze. $1.85 is a fee on the AUM for each pair per month for the duration of said permit. Usually May through October depending on each ranges elevation, moisture, ect. Do not confuse the $1.85 with what you pay for a lease on private land. 2 completely separate things as I explained. Hope this helps.

I guess I don't understand then you pay $1.85 per pair per month is there more money paid above that or just fence and water improvements. I pay rent then I get to fix fence,fix roads spray weeds all on my own dime and may not be the renter next season. I lease some hay land from the DNR $8 an acre plus I pay land taxes for a whole year and anyone can walk all over it thuogh few do.

We have discussed this til i am blue in the face! Do a search for the thread where i explained public land grazing rights. The facts are all there. If you have a private land lease that requires you to spray weeds and fix fence and roads and it costs you a lot of money per month that is between you and the landowner. If it doesnt work for you get out of it. On a public grazing allotment you have ZERO control. You are told when to turn out and come home, when to leave early. You can't dig a post hole without an antiquities act survey being done first which can take years. You could never spray weeds without an environmental impact statement. You cannot lock gates or stop the public from camping or off-roading or hunting. (Not that i would want to except when they leave trash, shoot gate posts off, shoot cows in the bag with a .22 and stick arrows through a replacement heifer) A private lease and a public grazing allotment are about as far from being the same thing as running cows in Minnesota compared to Utah. We both have cows and then everything else is different!

If all we can do is argue about who has the better lease than we are already beaten. This was about the federal governement over reach not grazing permits. Bundy will not win this in the end. The courts will never overturn this. To me, he wanted to go out with a bang by using this situation to shed a light on the BLM and thier mis-management of everything they touch. I am tired of defending my opinion. I guess some of ya don't get it and that is your right. :?

BUT- to play Devils Advocate and show where many of the Midwest/eastern farmer/cattleman comes from with their beliefs of a government subsidy -- once you paid your initial cost for the allotment (you say your's is $4000- I think it was somewhat cheaper here) then you only have the the $1.35-$1.85 per AUM fee and then costs for maintenance which often are share cost by BLM...

Where as if you own deeded land you not only paid the $4000+ dollar purchase cost ( $200-$250 an acre- 20 acres per cow/calf on a good year - some areas are a lot cheaper $100-150 an acre but requiring 60-70 acres to run a pair) but you have to pay all the property taxes (which in a state that rely's on property tax to fund all schools and local governments gets a little pricey) and do all the fence, dam, road maintenance on the pasture...

I kind of cringe when folks say that BLM mistreats them so bad - when I watch BLM help pay for, maintain, and rebuild dams, springs, and reservoirs on public allotments-- pay or share pay costs in fencing allotments, use federal/BLM employees and fire trucks to burn off bad grazing areas, etc. , etc...
I know at times they can be a pain in the butt-BUT what is the option ? To let everyone go out and do what they want willy nilly :???:
I live only a couple miles from an area that is used by most college AG courses to show an example of wanton overgrazing... Where Willow Creek joins down the Milk River-- and where thousands of cattle drifted to when the big (English/European owned) herds were allowed to graze wherever they wanted to - and eventually all drifted to the conference of the Missouri/Milk Rivers- down on Willow Creek....
Come on up sometime- I can show you old pictures of where the grass was belly high to a saddle horse- and now most the ground is slicker than a billiard ball....

 

[Ho55]

I kind of cringe when people who don't know what the hell they are talking about lip off. For the last time, we own a grazing right! Whether we payed to much or not enough matters not. We own the right to graze cattle, sheep whatever it may be. Like it or not it's a right. Share cost? I invite you to come look what I've done for my allotments. No other money was spent but my own!!! We don't want a free ride. We want to be able to RANCH. We are good stewards. Hell if I abuse or mistreat the resources. What do I go to next year? Hell almighty people. Read a good book. It's called Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage. We have a right and if we didn't we would have been off the ranges long ago. I'm like H. Enough said. Some will never get it. Best of luck when they find the next endangered animal on your lands.

 

[Jigger Boss]

Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFiosLqjoQQ

 

[leanin' H]

Try 2000 acres a pair. This land isn't your 45 inches of moisture a year land in Missouri Oldtimer. This is sacred land we have been managing for centuries. Only to be told by some book taught liberal how stupid we are. We can't get a roll of wire out here from your wonder BLM! But we damn sure have to fix about 150 miles of fence before turn out every year. They cut permits for mustangs (which they mismanage) for sage grouse (which they cant count) and for tortoises (Because they need an excuse). We actually had a lady ranger praise us for stewardship after riding her wheeler up into a pasture we had been in for over a month. Just raved about the grass and how good the cows looked for the time of year. Then we rode about a half a mile to the dry creek bed that only gets a trickle during spring runoff. After measuring the grass in the "riparian area" she said the cattle had to be moved immediately as we were doing irreparable harm to the "riparian area"! A creek that has never ran year round for 135 years at least! May as well of called us liars! We couldn't know anything because we don't have a degree in range management! So don't tell me about the BLM. You want options Oldtimer? Howabout they stop reinventing knowledge and admit we love the land, the grass and the wildlife as much or more than they do? Willy nilly you say? How about you recognize that generations of knowledge, of care and decades of stewardship ought to earn a rancher more than an education at a liberal college by people who have never ranched but can damn sure teach others how! And I aint coming to Montana to see where the grass isn't. I can just tour old allotments where grazing has been ended because of BLM phony excuses and see the grass regressing. You see Oldtimer, Grass evolved over millions of years to be eaten by herbivores. If you Montana boys cant figure out how to get some to grow 85 years after over grazing it maybe try applying at the burger king cause you damn sure shouldn't be running cattle! You will defend your liberal pals regardless of who you throw under the bus. Good for you! But don't piss down my neck and try to tell me it's raining!

I believe I need a break from you people. I thought we had common goals. I thought we all stood together over important issues. I though wrong. Ho55, Gcreek, Per, Shortgrass, Soapweed, Lazywp, Jody and some others have my email or phone number. Check in when ya feel like it. But I am taking a vacation from beating my head against the wall for people who are supposed to be compadres. Happy Trails. :?

 

[W.T]

Try 2000 acres a pair. This land isn't your 45 inches of moisture a year land in Missouri Oldtimer. This is sacred land we have been managing for centuries. Only to be told by some book taught liberal how stupid we are. We can't get a roll of wire out here from your wonder BLM! But we damn sure have to fix about 150 miles of fence before turn out every year. They cut permits for mustangs (which they mismanage) for sage grouse (which they cant count) and for tortoises (Because they need an excuse). We actually had a lady ranger praise us for stewardship after riding her wheeler up into a pasture we had been in for over a month. Just raved about the grass and how good the cows looked for the time of year. Then we rode about a half a mile to the dry creek bed that only gets a trickle during spring runoff. After measuring the grass in the "riparian area" she said the cattle had to be moved immediately as we were doing irreparable harm to the "riparian area"! A creek that has never ran year round for 135 years at least! May as well of called us liars! We couldn't know anything because we don't have a degree in range management! So don't tell me about the BLM. You want options Oldtimer? Howabout they stop reinventing knowledge and admit we love the land, the grass and the wildlife as much or more than they do? Willy nilly you say? How about you recognize that generations of knowledge, of care and decades of stewardship ought to earn a rancher more than an education at a liberal college by people who have never ranched but can damn sure teach others how! And I aint coming to Montana to see where the grass isn't. I can just tour old allotments where grazing has been ended because of BLM phony excuses and see the grass regressing. You see Oldtimer, Grass evolved over millions of years to be eaten by herbivores. If you Montana boys cant figure out how to get some to grow 85 years after over grazing it maybe try applying at the burger king cause you damn sure shouldn't be running cattle! You will defend your liberal pals regardless of who you throw under the bus. Good for you! But don't p*** down my neck and try to tell me it's raining!

I believe I need a break from you people. I thought we had common goals. I thought we all stood together over important issues. I though wrong. Ho55, Gcreek, Per, Shortgrass, Soapweed, Lazywp, Jody and some others have my email or phone number. Check in when ya feel like it. But I am taking a vacation from beating my head against the wall for people who are supposed to be compadres. Happy Trails. :?

Ho55
Member
Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2013
Posts: 151


New postPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote


I kind of cringe when people who don't know what the hell they are talking about lip off. For the last time, we own a grazing right! Whether we payed to much or not enough matters not. We own the right to graze cattle, sheep whatever it may be. Like it or not it's a right. Share cost? I invite you to come look what I've done for my allotments. No other money was spent but my own!!! We don't want a free ride. We want to be able to RANCH. We are good stewards. Hell if I abuse or mistreat the resources. What do I go to next year? Hell almighty people. Read a good book. It's called Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage. We have a right and if we didn't we would have been off the ranges long ago. I'm like H. Enough said. Some will never get it. Best of luck when they find the next endangered animal on your lands.

I will applaud both of these statements, And tip my hat. As you two truly understand the entire picture. We as Ranchers and farmers should applaud Cliven Bundy for having the courage to stand up for OUR rights to own property.. And if you do not understand why! God bless you.

 

[burnt]

"There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single-handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero."

-Kena Lytle Gloeckner

From: gopthedailydose.com

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Try 2000 acres a pair. This land isn't your 45 inches of moisture a year land in Missouri Oldtimer. This is sacred land we have been managing for centuries. Only to be told by some book taught liberal how stupid we are. We can't get a roll of wire out here from your wonder BLM! But we damn sure have to fix about 150 miles of fence before turn out every year. They cut permits for mustangs (which they mismanage) for sage grouse (which they cant count) and for tortoises (Because they need an excuse). We actually had a lady ranger praise us for stewardship after riding her wheeler up into a pasture we had been in for over a month. Just raved about the grass and how good the cows looked for the time of year. Then we rode about a half a mile to the dry creek bed that only gets a trickle during spring runoff. After measuring the grass in the "riparian area" she said the cattle had to be moved immediately as we were doing irreparable harm to the "riparian area"! A creek that has never ran year round for 135 years at least! May as well of called us liars! We couldn't know anything because we don't have a degree in range management! So don't tell me about the BLM. You want options Oldtimer? Howabout they stop reinventing knowledge and admit we love the land, the grass and the wildlife as much or more than they do? Willy nilly you say? How about you recognize that generations of knowledge, of care and decades of stewardship ought to earn a rancher more than an education at a liberal college by people who have never ranched but can damn sure teach others how! And I aint coming to Montana to see where the grass isn't. I can just tour old allotments where grazing has been ended because of BLM phony excuses and see the grass regressing. You see Oldtimer, Grass evolved over millions of years to be eaten by herbivores. If you Montana boys cant figure out how to get some to grow 85 years after over grazing it maybe try applying at the burger king cause you damn sure shouldn't be running cattle! You will defend your liberal pals regardless of who you throw under the bus. Good for you! But don't p*** down my neck and try to tell me it's raining!

I believe I need a break from you people. I thought we had common goals. I thought we all stood together over important issues. I though wrong. Ho55, Gcreek, Per, Shortgrass, Soapweed, Lazywp, Jody and some others have my email or phone number. Check in when ya feel like it. But I am taking a vacation from beating my head against the wall for people who are supposed to be compadres. Happy Trails. :?

I don't think you should take a break from beating your head. :wink:

If you can't convince your"Compadres" how are you going to convince the public. I for one don't understand the water rights, grazing permits. Grazing fees and the issue of state vs federal land.
I think most on here support ranchers ability to ranch and are against the over reach of the BLM and Forest service. Where we have trouble is supporting a rancher that hasn't payed his grazing fees for 20 years and ran cattle on range beyond his historical range and in numbers never permitted for.. If he is in the right regarding the range being State land why hasn't the Governor stepped forward?
Why hasn't the sheriff investigated the claims, and had a state court rule?

I have many more questions then answers and the more is hear Cliven Bundy talk the more I'm unsure of my support. He should have sent that Retired AZ sheriff packing when he talked about putting the women in front. :?

 

[hypocritexposer]

It wouldn`t have mattered if he was paying his grazing fees, he was endangering the tortioses, and the Government wanted to endanger the turtles themselves, with a solar plant or 2.

And he was damaging the natural resources, that the quads (recreational users), should have been allowed to damage themselves.

Read the judgements against him, most of it, was phoney excuses...

 

[Anonymous]

Try 2000 acres a pair. This land isn't your 45 inches of moisture a year land in Missouri Oldtimer. This is sacred land we have been managing for centuries. Only to be told by some book taught liberal how stupid we are. We can't get a roll of wire out here from your wonder BLM! But we damn sure have to fix about 150 miles of fence before turn out every year. They cut permits for mustangs (which they mismanage) for sage grouse (which they cant count) and for tortoises (Because they need an excuse). We actually had a lady ranger praise us for stewardship after riding her wheeler up into a pasture we had been in for over a month. Just raved about the grass and how good the cows looked for the time of year. Then we rode about a half a mile to the dry creek bed that only gets a trickle during spring runoff. After measuring the grass in the "riparian area" she said the cattle had to be moved immediately as we were doing irreparable harm to the "riparian area"! A creek that has never ran year round for 135 years at least! May as well of called us liars! We couldn't know anything because we don't have a degree in range management! So don't tell me about the BLM. You want options Oldtimer? Howabout they stop reinventing knowledge and admit we love the land, the grass and the wildlife as much or more than they do? Willy nilly you say? How about you recognize that generations of knowledge, of care and decades of stewardship ought to earn a rancher more than an education at a liberal college by people who have never ranched but can damn sure teach others how! And I aint coming to Montana to see where the grass isn't. I can just tour old allotments where grazing has been ended because of BLM phony excuses and see the grass regressing. You see Oldtimer, Grass evolved over millions of years to be eaten by herbivores. If you Montana boys cant figure out how to get some to grow 85 years after over grazing it maybe try applying at the burger king cause you damn sure shouldn't be running cattle! You will defend your liberal pals regardless of who you throw under the bus. Good for you! But don't p*** down my neck and try to tell me it's raining!

I believe I need a break from you people. I thought we had common goals. I thought we all stood together over important issues. I though wrong. Ho55, Gcreek, Per, Shortgrass, Soapweed, Lazywp, Jody and some others have my email or phone number. Check in when ya feel like it. But I am taking a vacation from beating my head against the wall for people who are supposed to be compadres. Happy Trails. :?

Leanin H- I didn't mean to make you mad- but there are two sides to every story... You have to be aware of the other side that is being presented out there... Denny hinted at it- I laid it out as a Devils Advocate... I have a BLM allotment- altho mine is because of deeded land in the center of a BLM/State land pasture administered by the BLM...
BUT- what I put out there is what you here from many farmers/ranchers and especially if you go to talk sites/forums like Advantage Cattle, Farmchat, Agriculture.com , etc. that is made up more of Midwesterners and easterners (areas of comparatively little public land)- you will hear these arguments constantly.... "Government subsidy" are the words heard often for public land leases... In Montana we have a lot of state land- much of which is comingled with federal land- and for the last couple of years there has been a huge argument going on over lease amounts on them because they are so much lower than private leases... A couple years ago they raised the state leases from $6 an AUM to around $11 per AUM where private are going for $40-50 an AUM... Ranchers say the raise is too much-- many of the public think they are not getting their monies worth out of their public lands... :???: Again a difference of perspective...

Especially with the politicians now talking about selling all federal land to pay the national debt- its amazing the number of folks that support that.. But like I've said- I don't think you or many other allotment holders will be able to outbid the money put up by the greeny weenies and bunny huggers if that happens...

I also get the feeling that the different regions have differing rapport with their federal authorities/BLM folks... For several years we have had a pretty good relationship in our area- while I'm always hearing of problems regarding the southwestern (Arizona, NM, Utah) areas.... Maybe we are the lucky ones...

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

It wouldn`t have mattered if he was paying his grazing fees, he was endangering the tortioses, and the Government wanted to endanger the turtles themselves, with a solar plant or 2.

And he was damaging the natural resources, that the quads (recreational users), should have been allowed to damage themselves.

Read the judgements against him, most of it, was phoney excuses...

No doubt, I questioned the "Safety" of recreation users back when I read it first.Also like somebody maybe it was you said that the Hundred million bison never stepped on a tortoise. We are having this argument in Canada that the endangered species are still here because of the ranchers not in spite of them. I guess until i walked a mile in his hoes It's hard to say what i would do.

 

[hypocritexposer]

It wouldn`t have mattered if he was paying his grazing fees, he was endangering the tortioses, and the Government wanted to endanger the turtles themselves, with a solar plant or 2.

And he was damaging the natural resources, that the quads (recreational users), should have been allowed to damage themselves.

Read the judgements against him, most of it, was phoney excuses...

No doubt, I questioned the "Safety" of recreation users back when I read it first.Also like somebody maybe it was you said that the Hundred million bison never stepped on a tortoise. We are having this argument in Canada that the endangered species are still here because of the ranchers not in spite of them. I guess until i walked a mile in his hoes It's hard to say what i would do.

:lol:

are they sheer, with lace tops

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

It wouldn`t have mattered if he was paying his grazing fees, he was endangering the tortioses, and the Government wanted to endanger the turtles themselves, with a solar plant or 2.

And he was damaging the natural resources, that the quads (recreational users), should have been allowed to damage themselves.

Read the judgements against him, most of it, was phoney excuses...

No doubt, I questioned the "Safety" of recreation users back when I read it first.Also like somebody maybe it was you said that the Hundred million bison never stepped on a tortoise. We are having this argument in Canada that the endangered species are still here because of the ranchers not in spite of them. I guess until i walked a mile in his hoes It's hard to say what i would do.

:lol:

are they sheer, with lace tops

It is Nevada :lol: :lol:

 

[Hereford76]

Just make it a quick break H. You and others are doing a good job sharing your side/thoughts/feelings on this and the differences between them and private leases in other parts of the country.

Can any of you lay out a timeline to this whole deal. Tam says she can't support a rancher that broke the law. But what set this all into motion? He was being asked to sign off on changes to his permit that he didn't believe was legal or there was ulterior motives behind them? Did he break the law or has he been fighting corrupt govt agencies with ulterior motives?

 

[Tam]

Just make it a quick break H. You and others are doing a good job sharing your side/thoughts/feelings on this and the differences between them and private leases in other parts of the country.

Can any of you lay out a timeline to this whole deal. Tam says she can't support a rancher that broke the law. But what set this all into motion? He was being asked to sign off on changes to his permit that he didn't believe was legal or there was ulterior motives behind them? Did he break the law or has he been fighting corrupt govt agencies with ulterior motives?

Ulterior motives maybe corrupt government most likely BUT, he admitted to the Federal court his cattle were grazing on land that had never been permitted to him or his family, and had been since about 2000. He did water development on land that no party, according to court testimony, was ever given permits to do.

I'd say even if he had a legal argument on the Land that was at one time permitted to him, he sure did not have an argument to support his trespassing on the other unpermitted tracts of land for over a decade.

By Nevada State Livestock laws it is illegal to graze your cattle on a piece of land without the consent of the land owner. And in this case sad to say it was the Federal Government like it or not.

If he had even kept to the once permitted land that might have been one thing but he did not, once he lost the long held family permitted land for nonpayment in 1994, he took it upon himself to decide where his boundries would be which included the land never permitted to him or his family, which lead to warnings to him to get his cattle out and when he did not comply to either the BLM or the National Forest Service, legal federal court orders to remove his cattle were granted.

Also according to Nevada Livestock law, cattle that are subject to illegal trespassing can be legally seized by the land owner to cover fees and damages. So when the Bundy family were on the TV claiming the government were STEALING their cattle they were not telling the truth as they owed over a million dollars in fees and fines and the cattle were being legally seized in lue of payment by court order. That is the repercussions of not paying your fees for over 20 years and still thinking you have a right to the land, I'm guessing.

Megyn Kelly was talking to a guy that was video taping the standoff on her show tonight and she said She did not agree with the handling of the issue by the government but she looked at the court documents and felt as a lawyer that the Government had the Bundy's dead to rights on the issue. She has no skin in the game and she is not a big fan of the government so why would she not tell it as she sees it?

One of the daughters was on Greta tonight and she claimed a lot of the fight was with the local Sheriff as he would not step in and do anything to protect her dad. She claimed it was his county and he had more power than any federal agency when it came to the people in Clark County. But what was he to do if he knew the land was legally the Federal Governments?

According to one article that I posted here on ranchers, the Clark County Sheriff's office in 2012 agreed to assist the BLM in the removal of the Bundy cattle that were trespassing when the family failed to remove them as they said they would. If he was to do his job, her dad might well had been in jail for breaking Nevada State trespassing laws, but would you want to live in a town with Cliven Bundy's family after arresting him? He likely figured it was the Federal Governments issue and to not risk upsetting the locals he would stay out of it the best he could and let the BLM and Federal Courts deal with the Second Amendment exercising family, which was upsetting to the family according to the daughter.

They might be rejoicing now as they won this battle but this is a no win situation and the Bundy family's own admitted actions did nothing to help out the cause if they knew it was going to wind up in the courts. As how can you win when your only defense is you haven't paid your permit and grazing fees for the past 20 years because you don't recognized the Federal Government to be the rightful owners of the land when the titles are in the United States of Americans name and have been since before the Bundy family settle on the land 140 year ago, the same landlord they have been paying their fees to up until the dispute 20 years ago. The Bundy's claimed they were there before the BLM was ever created so they didn't have to follow their rules but does that really matter when the BLM is a agency set up by the legal land owner the Federal Government to administer the day to day operations of their Public Lands?

I have stated and restated my reasoning for my lack of support for the Bundy family so you decide was the Bundy family breaking the law or are they hero's for getting the government to back down that well might encourage others to stop paying their legally owed bills?

And please ask yourself this question, If I support the Bundy family's illegal trespassing on Government owned land for 20 years because he is a rancher just trying to preserve his way of life, do I have a right to then demand the government hold their employees, that lied under oath to preserve their jobs, accountable by firing them or maybe even charging them with a crime and jailing them?


As is it not Hypocrisy to support one while demanding the other?

 

[Tam]

BTW I posted an article about a Wyoming family's fight with the EPA where they followed the rules and did everything the State of Wyoming requested only to have the EPA step in and threaten to fine them if they did not remove the Stock Pond on their private property, to which not one of you ranchers, concerned about the BLM's over reaching on the Bundy family that have not paid their grazing fees for over 20 years, have voiced any support for them. So I thought I would let you know I calculated the possible fines the family could be facing since I first posted the article in March and the fine is a cool $1.8 million. that is $75,000 a day for 24 days. There has not been much news about the poor families battle other than the fact a group of Congressmen wrote the EPA and asked them to back off, not sure if they did though, but considering it is over all US water rights and the EPAs attempts to take control of ALL OF THEM, I would think you might at least show some interest in this family's battle. :roll:

 

[kolanuraven]

BTW I posted an article about a Wyoming family's fight with the EPA where they followed the rules and did everything the State of Wyoming requested only to have the EPA step in and threaten to fine them if they did not remove the Stock Pond on their private property, to which not one of you ranchers, concerned about the BLM's over reaching on the Bundy family that have not paid their grazing fees for over 20 years, have voiced any support for them. So I thought I would let you know I calculated the possible fines the family could be facing since I first posted the article in March and the fine is a cool $1.8 million. that is $75,000 a day for 24 days. There has not been much news about the poor families battle other than the fact a group of Congressmen wrote the EPA and asked them to back off, not sure if they did though, but considering it is over all US water rights and the EPAs attempts to take control of ALL OF THEM, I would think you might at least show some interest in this family's battle. :roll:

Not trying to scare you Tam...but we agree again!