Canadian Consumers have a Choice for their Health!!!

[Sandhusker]

Tam, "How long will it take the US to eradicate BSE from the US herd ?"

It will never happen as long as we keep importing it.

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- Its pretty simple-- US packers are removing the Canadian markings and restamping with the USDA label and passing it off as US beef- I'm sure they aren't going thru the added effort and expense just for loyalty... Packers do things for only one reason, and its not loyalty, they do it to make money....OH I forgot- your one of the Canucks that still believe the Packers were being loyal to you when they took all the BSE subsidy money and ran with it- while letting the rest of the Canadian cattle industry starve :wink:

But they with their history to the organized crime ties I can expect it from- but when cattle producers go along with and openly support that deception and fraud it doesn't fit my image of cattlemen, ranchers or the history of what the cattle industry was built on....Tam if you support lying to and deceiveing consumers about what country their beef comes from- just so you can stick a few more bucks in your pocket, whats to say you won't lie and deceive on the shots and medication you give your calves- to make 2 bucks more-- or the age and birthdate on your calves if its worth another dollar...... Once you start supporting profiting off deception and fraud you are travelling a slippery slope...

As far as the BSE risk- we have only one thing to go on--CFIA's and USDA's testing results-...And right now these results indicate that Canada has a BSE problem several hundred times greater than the US- and that Canada has a feedban that didn't work or is being violated- why else for the 4 POST feedban cattle....That makes Canadian beef several hundred times more of a risk than US beef- and the final decision on that safety should be left to the consumer.....Especially since CFIA indicates it will be over 10 years before Canada can even hope to eradicate the disease...You can deny it and stick your head in the sand all you want- but that are the facts out there and denial won't change the facts....

So the boxes in the dumpster were out behind a US PACKING Plant, :shock: and the labels were changed before they hit your local butcher shop. :shock: A shop that would be trying to sell product with the US loyality card to US consumers wanting to show loyality to the US beef industry. :wink: I didn't know Glasgow had a packer that you would be dumpster diving behind. :lol: Oh I forgot you blame the packers and Canadians for everything, even the actions of YOUR LOCAL GLASGOW BUTCHER who according to your original statement is the one changing the labels and defrauding the public!!!

The local fella is doing it to compete- he can only get what the warehouse sources to him- and that varies from week to week-- and he knows that if he marks it Product of Canada he would lose business since the chain store butchers will not even tell you the truth- all they will tell me is that its USDA inspected :roll:

And you are one to talk about supporting lieing to stick a few bucks in your pocket. :x Tell us why you are supporting the lies of R-CALF if it is not to stick a few more bucks in your pocket, OLDTIMER? R-CALF claimed all our beef was tainted and unsafe for human consumption and you just posted you would have been stuck with diseased Canadian cattle if you had bought land in Canada. Well Oldtimer is ALL US BEEF UNSAFE because of your BSE problem. Or is it all of a sudden safe because of some magicial firewalls that protect consumers from US BSE but NOT IMPORTED. If you support the R-CALF statement of the US has the Safest Beef in the World because of the Highest standards in the World you are doing so because of your pocket book and you are already at the bottom of that slippery slope.

Tam- I don't believe that I have seen any of these lies that you fantasize about and have Bill nightmares over... Giving all the facts to consumers is not lying- The statistics say that Canadian cattle/beef are a higher risk-FACT --- and the Canadian feedban problems that R-CALF said they would prove in court have all come to be FACT....And if I'd bought $1400 cows in Canada- they would have become worth $250 on May 1st because most of the world saw Canadian beef as diseased-FACT--- is your memory that short Tammy :???: .....
I do support the fact that over the history of the cattle industry the US cattle are the safest in the world- much due to our efforts to control and minimize diseases-- and do not think we should risk that safety now by bringing cattle/beef in from a high risk area...And currently your dreaded R-CALF is the only organization working to maintain and increase these safeguards you think we need....

As far as the BSE risk- we have only one thing to go on--CFIA's and USDA's testing results-...And right now these results indicate that Canada has a BSE problem several hundred times greater than the US-

You Know Oldtimer the more you point fingers at the Canadian system the more questions you should be asking about YOUR SYSTEM. The test results proved one thing to most of the world and that was that if it wasn't for Phyllis the US would still be claiming they have no BSE in their native herd. Way to go Phyllis. And when she did that she also put a big question mark on the whole US BEEF INDUSTRY. Using the USDA test results to prove Canada is a higher risk is a joke. The only thing they prove is that we are looking to find the truth and we are willing to pass laws to clean up our system unlike the US industry. WE ALL KNOW you have BSE,(THANKS TO PHYLLIS) but has your industry done anything about it, NO. ASK YOURSELF
Where did your strain of BSE come from? I bet you can even tell us where Canada's came from. hint imported UK cattle in our feed system

What can be done about stopping the spread of your strain? Our feed bans have been updated AGAIN have yours? and before you say yours is not the same strain remember Oldtimer the Washington cow was in your system and processed along with millions of other Canadian cattle so I would think you would want to update your feed bans to protect your herd from at least the strain you know the cause of?

What good is your supposed feedban if nobody is following it...With cattle being born 5-6 years after the feedban :???: So far ours has proven out- but we shouldn't go pushing our luck by importing beef/cattle from high risk areas.....

How long will it take the US to eradicate BSE from the US herd ? You say the CFIA indicated ten years but if you don't even know the source then how can you estimate how long it will take to eradicate the US strain and how long will it take to eradicate our strain from your herd if you still feed chicken crap to your cattle LEGALLY?

When do you think the US will start implimenting rules to protect you from BSE? OTHER than banning imports that will not protect you from what is ALREADY IN THE US NATIVE HERD.

Quarantine has proven to be the most effective barrier against disease for years- and still is...Diseases have been eradicated from our herds for years that way...You can't start eradicating when you're still importing from a high risk country...

See Oldtimer you should have the answers to at least a few of the questions about the US BSE problem before you claim to know how much bigger our problem is. Who is really the higher risk with their unknowns and do nothing but blame attitudes. I agree label the beef OLDTIMER so the US consumer knows what to avoid which should be US BEEF if they really believe there is a risk to any beef :wink:

Fantasize all you want--Pretend you have no problem and its all the US's problem and fault---It doesn't make it so....Just like I've said 100 times-Just because you have 1 rattlesnake living under your doorstep- you don't have to go out and import a dozen more....Except lately with Canada it would be like importing several hundred more.....

Believe what you want on which beef they will choose--But I'll agree with you- all beef should be labeled...Let the consumer make the final choice of which is safer- or which they want to purchase...

 

[Tam]

Tam, you never got back to me on that "new science". You're not just making stuff up, are you?

Well Sandhusker we now KNOW that BSE is not contagious, something we didn't know in 1986 when the UK found BSE. This is if you listen to the test results on herdmates done by all countries that have found BSE in one animal and seldom found it in the rest of the herd. (Except the US as they can't find the birth herd :wink: ) And not the experts :roll: that says BSE can be passed by an infected cow p**sing on grass and the next cow eats the grass and contracts BSE. As if this was true and the prions can not be killed even over years then every cow that is ever in that pasture would be contracting BSE from the urine on the grass and in the water which cattle are known to pee in. And Every animal confined to a feed lot that an infect animal stayed in would be at risk. But that is not happening is it. Therefore, the only known risk of the US herd contracting BSE lies in the hands of the US feed manufacturers and the US Producers that feed the cattle. Now if the US cattle industry would get to work on cleaning up system then all US cattle and consumers would be protected from the effects of BSE no matter where it originates.
For the rest you can look it up yourself as I don't have the time nor do I care if I tell you anymore as you will never believe it anyway. :roll:

No, no, no, Tam. You were talking about the "new science" that must have been discovered after the US set our BSE policy. ( a tad later than 1986) Here's what you said, "Couldn't changing some of your old policies to reflect the new known science be a good thing for the industry as a whole, grassroot producers included. Or did you forget that if your import policies don't change to reflect the new science then other countries also have the right to ban YOUR BEEF on the bases of old science. "

Tam, there is no "new science". We knew BSE wasn't contagous when the USDA decided on the zero tolerance policy that was abandoned so the big packers could still get Canadian beef. When you have to make up points to back your position, you really need to reexamine that position.

The fact is the USDA took an other look at all the science old and new and decide to change the rules and you with your protectionist attitude will never agree even if it means destroying your own industry.

Maybe the NEW SCIENCE was the FACT that if Canada had BSE the US was going to find it in their native herd also . :shock: SO the fastest way to save the US Beef industry, was to change your import/export rules to reflect the OIE rules, thoses stateing no bans needed if rules are followed. :roll:
You kept asking why everything changed when Canada found BSE, I say they changed because the USDA was covering YOUR BUTTS in the event of the US finding it. :nod: WHICH YOU DID. If they hadn't of started the changes in policy how much beef do you think you would be exporting now that you have BSE in your native herd? It is like the USDA boys said way back when this all started Would be kind of hard to sell US BSE affected beef when you are standing on import restriction on countries in the same risk catagory!!!!!!!!
Are you willing to take a chance on the US domestic consumers confidence in your beef if the USDA was telling them that beef coming from a countries affect by BSE is unsafe and should be ban, when that country knowingly has stricter rules and safeguards in place than the US does. It is one thing to have such statements coming from a protectionist bunch of ****** but quite another to have it come from the agency in charge of the US food supply. Forget the Packers Think about what a drastic drop in all beef demand would do to the grass root producers pocketbook . Say good-bye to your historical high cattle prices Sandhusker. All because you and R-CALF didn't want the USDA to take another look at the known science and change an out of date rule. :roll:
The rules you should be more concerned about are the ones that protect your whole herd from ALL BSE, those being your feed bans and slaughter rules. You and R-CALF have wasted so much time and money on the import rules and M'COOL that your own herd is being put to further risk from what we all know is already there. If you spent half as much time convincing the USDA to close the loopholes in your system as you have taking them to court you would all be better off and the rest of the world would have at least a little respect for you. But as it is you are seen as a radical bunch of protectionist that will do and say anything to stop import trade so you don't have to compete for market share. :x

 

[Tam]

Tam- Its pretty simple-- US packers are removing the Canadian markings and restamping with the USDA label and passing it off as US beef- I'm sure they aren't going thru the added effort and expense just for loyalty... Packers do things for only one reason, and its not loyalty, they do it to make money....OH I forgot- your one of the Canucks that still believe the Packers were being loyal to you when they took all the BSE subsidy money and ran with it- while letting the rest of the Canadian cattle industry starve :wink:

But they with their history to the organized crime ties I can expect it from- but when cattle producers go along with and openly support that deception and fraud it doesn't fit my image of cattlemen, ranchers or the history of what the cattle industry was built on....Tam if you support lying to and deceiveing consumers about what country their beef comes from- just so you can stick a few more bucks in your pocket, whats to say you won't lie and deceive on the shots and medication you give your calves- to make 2 bucks more-- or the age and birthdate on your calves if its worth another dollar...... Once you start supporting profiting off deception and fraud you are travelling a slippery slope...

As far as the BSE risk- we have only one thing to go on--CFIA's and USDA's testing results-...And right now these results indicate that Canada has a BSE problem several hundred times greater than the US- and that Canada has a feedban that didn't work or is being violated- why else for the 4 POST feedban cattle....That makes Canadian beef several hundred times more of a risk than US beef- and the final decision on that safety should be left to the consumer.....Especially since CFIA indicates it will be over 10 years before Canada can even hope to eradicate the disease...You can deny it and stick your head in the sand all you want- but that are the facts out there and denial won't change the facts....

So the boxes in the dumpster were out behind a US PACKING Plant, :shock: and the labels were changed before they hit your local butcher shop. :shock: A shop that would be trying to sell product with the US loyality card to US consumers wanting to show loyality to the US beef industry. :wink: I didn't know Glasgow had a packer that you would be dumpster diving behind. :lol: Oh I forgot you blame the packers and Canadians for everything, even the actions of YOUR LOCAL GLASGOW BUTCHER who according to your original statement is the one changing the labels and defrauding the public!!!

The local fella is doing it to compete- he can only get what the warehouse sources to him- and that varies from week to week-- and he knows that if he marks it Product of Canada he would lose business since the chain store butchers will not even tell you the truth- all they will tell me is that its USDA inspected :roll:

And you are one to talk about supporting lieing to stick a few bucks in your pocket. :x Tell us why you are supporting the lies of R-CALF if it is not to stick a few more bucks in your pocket, OLDTIMER? R-CALF claimed all our beef was tainted and unsafe for human consumption and you just posted you would have been stuck with diseased Canadian cattle if you had bought land in Canada. Well Oldtimer is ALL US BEEF UNSAFE because of your BSE problem. Or is it all of a sudden safe because of some magicial firewalls that protect consumers from US BSE but NOT IMPORTED. If you support the R-CALF statement of the US has the Safest Beef in the World because of the Highest standards in the World you are doing so because of your pocket book and you are already at the bottom of that slippery slope.

Tam- I don't believe that I have seen any of these lies that you fantasize about and have Bill nightmares over... Giving all the facts to consumers is not lying- The statistics say that Canadian cattle/beef are a higher risk-FACT --- and the Canadian feedban problems that R-CALF said they would prove in court have all come to be FACT....And if I'd bought $1400 cows in Canada- they would have become worth $250 on May 1st because most of the world saw Canadian beef as diseased-FACT--- is your memory that short Tammy :???: .....
I do support the fact that over the history of the cattle industry the US cattle are the safest in the world- much due to our efforts to control and minimize diseases-- and do not think we should risk that safety now by bringing cattle/beef in from a high risk area...And currently your dreaded R-CALF is the only organization working to maintain and increase these safeguards you think we need....

As far as the BSE risk- we have only one thing to go on--CFIA's and USDA's testing results-...And right now these results indicate that Canada has a BSE problem several hundred times greater than the US-

You Know Oldtimer the more you point fingers at the Canadian system the more questions you should be asking about YOUR SYSTEM. The test results proved one thing to most of the world and that was that if it wasn't for Phyllis the US would still be claiming they have no BSE in their native herd. Way to go Phyllis. And when she did that she also put a big question mark on the whole US BEEF INDUSTRY. Using the USDA test results to prove Canada is a higher risk is a joke. The only thing they prove is that we are looking to find the truth and we are willing to pass laws to clean up our system unlike the US industry. WE ALL KNOW you have BSE,(THANKS TO PHYLLIS) but has your industry done anything about it, NO. ASK YOURSELF
Where did your strain of BSE come from? I bet you can even tell us where Canada's came from. hint imported UK cattle in our feed system

What can be done about stopping the spread of your strain? Our feed bans have been updated AGAIN have yours? and before you say yours is not the same strain remember Oldtimer the Washington cow was in your system and processed along with millions of other Canadian cattle so I would think you would want to update your feed bans to protect your herd from at least the strain you know the cause of?

What good is your supposed feedban if nobody is following it...With cattle being born 5-6 years after the feedban :???: So far ours has proven out- but we shouldn't go pushing our luck by importing beef/cattle from high risk areas.....

How long will it take the US to eradicate BSE from the US herd ? You say the CFIA indicated ten years but if you don't even know the source then how can you estimate how long it will take to eradicate the US strain and how long will it take to eradicate our strain from your herd if you still feed chicken crap to your cattle LEGALLY?

When do you think the US will start implimenting rules to protect you from BSE? OTHER than banning imports that will not protect you from what is ALREADY IN THE US NATIVE HERD.

Quarantine has proven to be the most effective barrier against disease for years- and still is...Diseases have been eradicated from our herds for years that way...You can't start eradicating when you're still importing from a high risk country...

See Oldtimer you should have the answers to at least a few of the questions about the US BSE problem before you claim to know how much bigger our problem is. Who is really the higher risk with their unknowns and do nothing but blame attitudes. I agree label the beef OLDTIMER so the US consumer knows what to avoid which should be US BEEF if they really believe there is a risk to any beef :wink:

Fantasize all you want--Pretend you have no problem and its all the US's problem and fault---It doesn't make it so....Just like I've said 100 times-Just because you have 1 rattlesnake living under your doorstep- you don't have to go out and import a dozen more....Except lately with Canada it would be like importing several hundred more.....

Believe what you want on which beef they will choose--But I'll agree with you- all beef should be labeled...Let the consumer make the final choice of which is safer- or which they want to purchase...

So it is OK for the local fella to defraud in the name of competition. :roll: And you mean to tell me that there is not enough US beef in the US warehouses so if this local fella asked for US beef he would recieve US beef? :? And why do you think if he marks it "Product of Canada" he would lose money? Could it have something to do with the lies you and your R-CALF buddies have been telling the media about our beef being tainted and unfit for humans? Just because the chain store butchers won't tell the truth does that give the right to lie to your local fella if HE KNOWS THE TRUTH? Did you as a officer of the court let one witness lie if another witness already lied on the witness stand. :???:

I don't believe that I have seen any of these lies

Read the R-CALF court briefs to Cebull and tell me that R-CALF didn't say Canadian beef was unsafe for human consumption due to the fact we had BSE in our native herd. And if R-CALF truly believe our beef is unsafe due to our pre feed ban cases of BSE ( the only ones found prior to their court action when those statements were made.) why are they not demanding the banning of all US beef sales on the same grounds of having pre feed ban cases within the native US herd? Either they were lieing to keep the border closed to our beef or they are lieing to keep US consumers eating yours. either way they are lieing and you are supporting their every word!!!!! But I guess this is another case of lieing is ok in the name of competition RIGHT OLDTIMER :x

I do support the fact that over the history of the cattle industry the US cattle are the safest in the world- much due to our efforts to control and minimize diseases-- and do not think we should risk that safety now by bringing cattle/beef in from a high risk area

How safe is it Oldtimer when your known strain of BSE was not the same as ours and therefore probably didn't come from the animals imported from Canada? What has R-CALF done to stop your strain from further infecting your herd Oldtimer? Have they demanded or recieved any answers to where and how your herd contracted your strain? And if they haven't how can you say they are maintaining the proper safeguards to protect your consumers and herd from YOUR STRAIN OF BSE?

So far ours has proven out-

One more time just for you OLDTIMER The USDA testing has put a huge question mark over the whole US system so it really proved very little. Until you start testing using the proper animals with the proper test, to the same percentage don't try use it to prove anything about the effectiveness of your system. :roll:

Quarantine has proven to be the most effective barrier against disease for years- and still is...Diseases have been eradicated from our herds for years that way...You can't start eradicating when you're still importing from a high risk country...

Does this go for all diseases and all countries Oldtimer or just those the US deem fit for quarantine???? Why is it that the US has the right to quarantine any country with a disease that may enter their herd but if Canada does it is is a irrational trade barrier? Most of Canada doesn't have Anna and Blue and the US does but we had to drop our restriction of testing US cattle just to make you happy. So much for the quarantine rule being the most effective way to eradicate unwanted diseases in other independent countries.

And Oldtimer no one in Canada can forget we have a problem as everytime our mind wonders off the issue You find another news release or shirttail comment to bring us back to earth.

You excuse your local butchers fraud by blaming the packers and Canadian ranchers and their greed for a few extra bucks to pay their bills . But who is really defrauding the public for a few extra bucks in his pocket? YOUR LOCAL BUTCHER THAT WHO. and you if you really cared about the truth in labeling you would talk to him about it not blame those that have NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS LIEING TO THE PUBLIC.

 

[Tam]

Tam, "How long will it take the US to eradicate BSE from the US herd ?"

It will never happen as long as we keep importing it.

Sandhusker Please bring prove that your strain of BSE was imported and from where. And then tell us what safeguards the US has in place to stop the spread of your strain of BSE that is already affecting your herd.

Please remember that the safeguards the Leo claimed you were maintaining are the safeguards that protect for our strain NOT YOURS. If you don't know where yours came from and what spreads yours how do you know how to go about eradicating it.

 

[Sandhusker]

Tam, "The fact is the USDA took an other look at all the science old and new and decide to change the rules and you with your protectionist attitude will never agree even if it means destroying your own industry."

Bull. Once again, there was no "new science". For your statement to be true, new discoveries would of had to surfaced between country #22 and #23. There were none. In fact, there were no advances made between the time the zero policy was established and the day the rule was changed for you and the packers. NONE.

Tam, "Maybe the NEW SCIENCE was..."

Maybe? You say the USDA looked at the "new science" and "maybe" it was....? How do you know about any "new science" if you don't even know what it is? If you have to make up points to defend your position, you need to reexamine your position.

 

[Sandhusker]

Tam, "Sandhusker Please bring prove that your strain of BSE was imported and from where"

The facts are that last post ban of yours could very easily have been shipped down here under the new rules the USDA was proposing. Lord knows how many just like her. Are you saying that couldn't of happened?

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Roughly, you've found 1 case for every 1.5M head. We've found 1 for every 45M. You haven't tested 30 times the cattle that we have.

But you're missing the point of the statistical analysis. We've tested far more at risk animals than the US has. Thats why the analysis is weighted the way it is. If you test low risk animals, you won't find the disease.

Look at it this way: If you tested 1 million 12 month old animals, how many BSE positives would you expect to find? If you test 1 million downer cows, how many would you expect to find? You don't get "points" for testing the 12 month old animals.

I know you guys keep using # of positives divided by the number of animals in the herd, but thats a completely wrong way of determining the risk.

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Unless somehow you can fabricate 4 POST feedbans, including one born 5 years after the feedban, into being an effective feedban :???:

We found our feedban hole, OT. Its only you who doesn't believe it. And good luck to the US in getting minimal risk status. Or have you already forgotten the recent feed recall? Your feed ban is even less effective than ours, you've just missed all the BSE positive animals due to lack of testing.

Rod

 

[Sandhusker]

Roughly, you've found 1 case for every 1.5M head. We've found 1 for every 45M. You haven't tested 30 times the cattle that we have.

But you're missing the point of the statistical analysis. We've tested far more at risk animals than the US has. Thats why the analysis is weighted the way it is. If you test low risk animals, you won't find the disease.

Look at it this way: If you tested 1 million 12 month old animals, how many BSE positives would you expect to find? If you test 1 million downer cows, how many would you expect to find? You don't get "points" for testing the 12 month old animals.

I know you guys keep using # of positives divided by the number of animals in the herd, but thats a completely wrong way of determining the risk.

Rod

I see what you're saying, Rod, but I don't believe you've tested a huge percentage more of at risk cattle. Yeah, the USDA has tested some cattle under 30 months (even though they tell the world there's no reason to do so), but I don't think a large percentage of those tested were that or any other category that didn't really justify a test. Unless you can show me that most of our tests were not on at risk cattle, I'm not buying your arguement. With 1 in 45M vs 1 in 1.5M, you're going to have to show a heck of a lot of tests being performed on different type of cattle down here than up there. My money says you can't.

From the USDA;
Experience in Europe has shown that testing high-risk cattle is the method most likely to identify BSE if it is present. Therefore, USDA has tailored its testing program to collect the majority of samples from the following categories:

Nonambulatory cattle;
Cattle exhibiting signs of a central nervous system disorder;
Cattle exhibiting other signs that may be associated with BSE, such as emaciation or injury; and
Dead cattle.
USDA personnel will also sample all cattle condemned on ante-mortem inspection by USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I see what you're saying, Rod, but I don't believe you've tested a huge percentage more of at risk cattle. Yeah, the USDA has tested some cattle under 30 months (even though they tell the world there's no reason to do so), but I don't think a large percentage of those tested were that or any other category that didn't really justify a test. Unless you can show me that most of our tests were not on at risk cattle, I'm not buying your arguement. With 1 in 45M vs 1 in 1.5M, you're going to have to show a heck of a lot of tests being performed on different type of cattle down here than up there. My money says you can't.

But according to another USDA quote I see floating around, you guys are testing slaughter animals. Since the US doesn't process ambulatory or downer animals, I'm not sure what exactly you're testing. Most of Canada's tests have been ambulatory or dead animals, tested from on-farm samples. Apparently the OIE (OIG? I can never keep the letters straight) knows what the US is testing and has assigned the appropriate weightings to the statistics. As you say, we must go by what we know, and we know that the US and Canada are in identical risk categories. Since we have found more cases than the US, there is something that the OIE is using to keep the US in its current risk category.

Rod

 

[Tam]

Tam, "Sandhusker Please bring prove that your strain of BSE was imported and from where"

The facts are that last post ban of yours could very easily have been shipped down here under the new rules the USDA was proposing. Lord knows how many just like her. Are you saying that couldn't of happened?

Funny how you expect answers without diversion but very seldom do you ever answer without diversion. :roll: Notice Sandhusker where I asked you to Please bring your proof that your strain was IMPORTED? As far as I know our Post feed bans are not the same strain as yours so again where is your proof that YOUR STRAIN WAS IMPORTED? And how do you plan to eradicate it if you don't know the cause and transmission of YOUR STRAIN????

And Sandhusker if Leo wasn't lieing :shock: about the US firewalls to protect in the event of BSE being found in the US , the imported cases would more likely be covered than your domestic cases as the firewalls he was speaking of are those that protect from our strain NOT YOURS. :wink:

 

[Sandhusker]

But according to another USDA quote I see floating around, you guys are testing slaughter animals. Since the US doesn't process ambulatory or downer animals, I'm not sure what exactly you're testing. Most of Canada's tests have been ambulatory or dead animals, tested from on-farm samples. Apparently the OIE (OIG? I can never keep the letters straight) knows what the US is testing and has assigned the appropriate weightings to the statistics. As you say, we must go by what we know, and we know that the US and Canada are in identical risk categories. Since we have found more cases than the US, there is something that the OIE is using to keep the US in its current risk category.

But are we testing that many slaughters? We would have to be testing 30 times more slaughters than "testers". I'm sure that is not the case. If you take out the slaughters that we tested, I'll still bet you whatever you want - and give odds - that your incidence of positives/ "testers" is still much higher than ours.


Considering who was behind changing the categories, I have to take them with more than a pinch of salt. We're in the same categories (very broad categories at that) because that is what the USDA wanted. Of course we're the same. When you get to change the rules, you change them in your favor. Having a post ban case alone should change the risk category, especially ones that have surfaced that long after the ban. You used to hear a lot about an effective feed ban - used to be at the top of the list.

I'm getting dang sick and tired of the USDA changing horses, each time for the benefit of the big packers. We had a BSE policy that was supposed to be based on what the experts told them. They weren't told any different, but OOOPS, gotta change it now that Canada has BSE - Tyson and Cargill said do. The make a new plan and then OOOPS, gotta change it, these categories restrict what Cargil and Tyson want.

 

[Sandhusker]

Tam, "Sandhusker Please bring prove that your strain of BSE was imported and from where"

The facts are that last post ban of yours could very easily have been shipped down here under the new rules the USDA was proposing. Lord knows how many just like her. Are you saying that couldn't of happened?

Funny how you expect answers without diversion but very seldom do you ever answer without diversion. :roll: Notice Sandhusker where I asked you to Please bring your proof that your strain was IMPORTED? As far as I know our Post feed bans are not the same strain as yours so again where is your proof that YOUR STRAIN WAS IMPORTED? And how do you plan to eradicate it if you don't know the cause and transmission of YOUR STRAIN????

And Sandhusker if Leo wasn't lieing :shock: about the US firewalls to protect in the event of BSE being found in the US , the imported cases would more likely be covered than your domestic cases as the firewalls he was speaking of are those that protect from our strain NOT YOURS. :wink:

Tam, I don't know that our cases were imported. Allow me to make a correction. WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO ELIMINATE BSE IF WE IMPORT IT.

Satisfied? Does it change anything?

NO, Leo was not lying, and I'm weary of you continually bringing up your intentional misinterpretation of a statement that was made in plain English.
If you have to twist statements to back your position, your position is twisted.

 

[jdst]

I still don't get the fighting.

Let's put some reality into the BSE "issue".

Testing: Both countries use the same tests - either BioRad or Prionics. Neither test can detect early stages of infection. Both countries are close to correct in suggesting there is little point in testing animals without symptoms because the test won't work. There is (are?) test(s?)s that show infection prior to symptoms, but neither government will use it (them?).

The excuse is fear of false positives. A "false" positive is an animal testing positive but never showing symptoms. Since it may take as long as 8 years for symptoms to appear, a test that detects infection early is, according to government 'science' showing false positives. This is analogous to suggesting a test showing Typhoid Mary as infected would be inaccurate because she never developed the disease herself.

This position, by both governments, lacks logic.

The Japanese experience with 100% testing, using the same tests as Canada and the US, shows us a few animals showing no symptoms will test positive. These animals are massively infected, and would likely have shown symptoms in the near future - less than a year.

Common sense tells us statistics developed from the current tests are so incomplete using them to determine infection rates, and particularly comparative infection rates, is nonsense. But it serves to divert attention from the real issues:

• How many animals are infected with PrPsc prions?
  Where within an animal's body can these prions be detected?
  How many people have been infected? and the biggie...
  Who is liable?

Smoking is bad for you. Look how long it took the government to admit it in the face of the tobacco lobby. Look at the long term result. Extrapolate that to beef.

All joking aside, beef is non-addictive. Do you believe the industry could survive twenty or thirty years of bad press and public outrage in the same vein as tobacco? Do you believe avoidance is the right strategy? Do you think the public - your customers - trusts the government? Do you think the public trusts big food?

By fighting among yourselves, and this includes R-CALF railing against Canadian meat, you are letting others whose interests do not match your own determine your future.

 

[Tam]

Tam, "The fact is the USDA took an other look at all the science old and new and decide to change the rules and you with your protectionist attitude will never agree even if it means destroying your own industry."

Bull. Once again, there was no "new science". For your statement to be true, new discoveries would of had to surfaced between country #22 and #23. There were none. In fact, there were no advances made between the time the zero policy was established and the day the rule was changed for you and the packers. NONE.

Tam, "Maybe the NEW SCIENCE was..."

Maybe? You say the USDA looked at the "new science" and "maybe" it was....? How do you know about any "new science" if you don't even know what it is? If you have to make up points to defend your position, you need to reexamine your position.

Denying that fact that the new discovery of BSE within NORTH AMERICA/Canada meant to most that it was only a matter of time, given the volume of trade between the US and other BSE affected countries in live cattle and feed ingredients, that the US was going to find BSE in their native herd, is not going to change HISTORY. History was made the day the Washington cow was recalled from your food chain and the OIE told the USDA the Washington cow could not be considered in isolation of the US herd give the trade between Canada and the US. It was confirmed the day Phyllis called for the retest of the famed Texas cow that was found negitive only to be positive 7 months later. And if the USDA had sat on their collective butts and done nothing about changing your import rules you as a US producer would be facing a very different result to Phyllis's June 2005 findings. If the USDA had stood up and told the US consumers that beef coming from a country in the minimal risk catagory that had higher standards than the US was unsafe and should be ban, then how could those same consumers not believe that US beef was unsafe and should not be trusted given you were in the minimal risk catagory yourself and you have loopholes that allowed the Washington cow to reach your food chain.
Remember Sandhusker None I say NONE of our BSE positive cattle ever stepped foot in a Canadian slaughter plant. That is one of the main reasons our system should show most consumers we have a stricter set of rules. Add to that that we HAVE UPDATED our feed bans to include things that even the FDA and the USDA KNOW are sources of cross contamination but have done nothing about in the US. Add to that we have the ability to find the birthherd of most if not all our cases which lead to the feed source and possible route of transmission. These are things that put the Canadian investigations heads above any investigation the USDA was able to pull off.
You Sandhusker should thank you lucky stars that the USDA didn't stand on the old import policies and that US consumers didn't listen to the R-CALF crap about how unsafe our beef is as if they had the US industry would be at a very different place now.

 

[Sandhusker]

I agree with a whole lot about your post, jdst.

Allow me to present R-CALF's position as quickly as I can; When BSE surfaced, the USDA realized they needed a plan of action. They consulted the "experts" and came up with a zero tolerance policy - if a country got BSE, we closed the border to cattle and beef. The USDA told Congress that was what was needed to protect our herd and consumers. They followed this policy without fail as 22 countries found BSE. Suddenly, when #23 surfaced (Canada), they had to change the rules. We all know why - all of a sudden this policy was costing the big packers money. It was no big deal closing to Italy or Ireland, etc....as Tyson and Cargill didn't import from them, Canada was a whole different deal. So, here is the USDA changing a policy they said was to protect us for the economic benefit of packers - they sold US producers out. THAT'S why R-CALF has such a problem with the Canada trade. Our reaction would be the same if it was Mexico.

If the USDA had a sound reason to make the changes, the timing would still of been highly suspect to say the least, but they don't have that. Either they were off base formulating the policy the first place, or they were wrong to change it. Considering how much pressure there was on them from the money each time, it's not hard to figure out which decision smells fishy.

 

[Sandhusker]

Tam, "Remember Sandhusker None I say NONE of our BSE positive cattle ever stepped foot in a Canadian slaughter plant. That is one of the main reasons our system should show most consumers we have a stricter set of rules"

And you've had 4 post-ban cases. That shows some of those rules aren't being followed. Doesn't matter how strict your rules are of you don't follow them.

You still haven't shown any "new science".

 

[Tam]

Tam, "Sandhusker Please bring prove that your strain of BSE was imported and from where"

The facts are that last post ban of yours could very easily have been shipped down here under the new rules the USDA was proposing. Lord knows how many just like her. Are you saying that couldn't of happened?

Funny how you expect answers without diversion but very seldom do you ever answer without diversion. :roll: Notice Sandhusker where I asked you to Please bring your proof that your strain was IMPORTED? As far as I know our Post feed bans are not the same strain as yours so again where is your proof that YOUR STRAIN WAS IMPORTED? And how do you plan to eradicate it if you don't know the cause and transmission of YOUR STRAIN????

And Sandhusker if Leo wasn't lieing :shock: about the US firewalls to protect in the event of BSE being found in the US , the imported cases would more likely be covered than your domestic cases as the firewalls he was speaking of are those that protect from our strain NOT YOURS. :wink:

Tam, I don't know that our cases were imported. Allow me to make a correction. WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO ELIMINATE BSE IF WE IMPORT IT.

Satisfied? Does it change anything?

NO, Leo was not lying, and I'm weary of you continually bringing up your intentional misinterpretation of a statement that was made in plain English.
If you have to twist statements to back your position, your position is twisted.

There you go again blaming the imports for not being able to eliminate it. Forget the imports, Sandhusker how will you eliminate your strain if you don't KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM OR WHAT CAUSED IT? The true statement is the US will never eliminate BSE as they have no idea where to start cleaning up the US STRAIN OF IT.
So say Leo didn't lie :wink: then why can't those firewalls that were designed to protect from and eradicate the native feed transmitted strain of BSE (that strain that is in Canada not in the US) not protect and eradicate it if it is imported to your system???? If Leo is so sure it will catch all the NATIVE CASES and eliminate them from the system what makes him think it will miss the imported cases? Are imported cattle slaughtered to a different less stringent set of rules or something Sandhusker?

One more question Sandhusker How many Federal vets and inspectors inspect US cattle before they hit the US slaughter floor compared to the amount that inspect the health of Canadian cattle being imported to the US for slaughter?

 

[Sandhusker]

Tam, "There you go again blaming the imports for not being able to eliminate it. Forget the imports, Sandhusker how will you eliminate your strain if you don't KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM OR WHAT CAUSED IT? The true statement is the US will never eliminate BSE as they have no idea where to start cleaning up the US STRAIN OF IT.
So say Leo didn't lie then why can't those firewalls that were designed to protect from and eradicate the native feed transmitted strain of BSE (that strain that is in Canada not in the US) not protect and eradicate it if it is imported to your system???? If Leo is so sure it will catch all the NATIVE CASES and eliminate them from the system what makes him think it will miss the imported cases? Are imported cattle slaughtered to a different less stringent set of rules or something Sandhusker?

One more question Sandhusker How many Federal vets and inspectors inspect US cattle before they hit the US slaughter floor compared to the amount that inspect the health of Canadian cattle being imported to the US for slaughter?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Tam, it does't matter what strain you have. They're both considered BSE. If we get rid of ours, but import yours, we still have BSE, don't we?

If you took the time to read Leo's entire statement (better yet, have somebody read it to you) Leo was calling for tougher firewalls. You and him agree that we need to strenghten them.

I don't know about your vets question.

When are you going to present this "new science"?