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Comments on bull EPD's

Alabama said:
The weaning and yearling weight on both bulls look low to me. The angus boys have done a good jub over the last years and you can get much more production for a fair price then the bulls you listed. With EPD's alone, I think you are looking at some low end bulls. There is alot more to bulls than EPD's so go look. you may get some good bulls cheep but with low EPD's the odds are aginist you.
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Well said, Alabama.- - - -and with fewer words than I seem to be able to do, too!
 
Any thoughts on this bull?

Reg # 14842570

A99-2.jpg
 
Here is my opinion.

The first bull shouldn't even be a bull. What did you see that you liked? I couldn't find anything. Really post legged and no jump muscle that I could see. Besides that: No meat. No muscle. No hip~IMO.

The next bull is way more my type of bull. Much better muscle pattern.
Looks like a bull. Even has a crest on his neck which is supposed to denote fertility. The bull has BALANCE to my way of thinking.

It wouldn't be hard for me to choose between these two bulls.

BTW, were you trying to trick us by posting 3 pictures of the same bull? OR were you just nervous and hit the keys more than once? :wink:
 
tom4018 said:
Any thoughts on this bull?

Reg # 14842570

A99-2.jpg
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The first bull (?), SMFConfidence 99 was behind the barn when they were castrating calves! I am surprised that a Grandson of Bon View Bando 598 would show that much lack of masculinity, but I guess his Dam, SMF Tibbie A99, would be the main culprit in his background. The fourth generations back were not bad with the exception being the Granddam on his Dam's side. Not too impressed with that. The second, third, and fourth bulls seem to have a Tail Problem! They all go the same direction. And I noticed that they were placed in the ABSOLUTE EXACT same spot on the ground for 'their' pictures! Amazing how you could do that!

Seriously, the Second (and 3 and 4) is not too bad a bull. A little short coupled perhaps, but MUCH more desirable than #1. A little open shouldered - might cause his calves to be a little problem getting into the world. Check his Birth EPD. Under 3.0 if possible. IMO - DON'T use No. 1 for anything except a tester. Perform a Vasectomy on him and let him tell you which cows are in heat, so no.2 can do his thing. Or use AI and get a Crackin' good bull which will save you some years in your breeding program!

Suggestion: Log on to www.crinet.com and ask them to send you their Beef Genetic Management Guide for 2005. It is a "Textbook" all by itself on the Beef Breeding BUSINESS! Pictures, too! 8) - and FREE!
 
I called up the bulls you were looking at, and you can find bulls with more growth than that. You should be looking at bulls from the New Design line or the Precision line. Not that those bulls are bad but you can find a more complete bull without traveling the country.
 
If you guys don't use EPD's as a selection tool, how do you strive to make a better end product? If we as beef cattle producers don't use every piece of information available to make an educated decision, then shame on us. With all of the EPD's at our disposal it makes it easier and quicker to make the genetic changes to better the beef supply.
 
Angus Breeder said:
If you guys don't use EPD's as a selection tool, how do you strive to make a better end product? If we as beef cattle producers don't use every piece of information available to make an educated decision, then shame on us. With all of the EPD's at our disposal it makes it easier and quicker to make the genetic changes to better the beef supply.
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Angus Breeder - I notice that you are a new member of the Q&A Board. Welcome to our group :D The more contributors we can get involved in our discussions, the more we will all learn! There is one thing that I learned within a few days of joining this group: don't take at face value everything that you read on these posts! :shock:

Many of these Cattle Breeders are very successful breeders in their own right - and you may rest comfortably knowing that, indeed, they use every available tool at their disposal in the breeding and management of their profitable operations. I will assure you that, indeed, the individual known as "Soapweed" does use EPD's in his very large and vast Cattle operation. He was doing a little bit of "Sarcastic Humor" when he mentioned that he did not use EPD's! :lol: :lol: He does. Some of our contributors use Phenotype primarilly as a main tool, and others use Genotype and EPD's almost to a fault, but most of the breeders here are very knowledgeable professionals. Don't let them kid you! :? :???: Because they will try. But they will teach you also. Enjoy! :D :D
 
Tom, I'm not sure how far you are from Roanoke, Virginia but Lynn Brae Angus has an excellent line of registered Angus bulls. They have a second ranch in Kansas where I have purchased a number of very good bulls. Most recently I have used bulls from the Freightliner and New Design lines and have been quite pleased. They are raised to be good, hard working, commercial herd bulls. They aren't the most expensive but not the cheapest either. Their Kansas ranch, Mill Brae Ranch, has an annual spring sale and their average price is roughly $2,500 to $3,000 per head for young bulls. They usually sell a few 2 year old bulls at a somewhat higher price. It might be too far for you to go but it's a possible source for good quality bulls.

Don
 
First off I have not looked up the bulls listed, this post is a glittering generality. The two traits one for "carcus" and the other trait "fertility" have a negative correlation. That is when one breeds for carcus one looses the fertility and visa versa. I go along with Faster Horses gentlemen. My ranch has many tall hills and low vallys, those big humming cows just don't travel up and down as well as they travel accross flat land. As a matter of fact they won't travel flat land for grass and water as a smaller cow. I prefer a 1200# fertile critter over a 1400# carcus only female. JMHO 8)
 
I've got a friend in Newcastle Wy. who runs a couple thousand Charolais cows-he says they'll graze out furthur and travel better than black cows. I found that interesting but it could be true-the Angus breed is trying to transform itself into black jersey's-they milk and marble too. The sad fact is the kids old jersey cows runs out with commercial herd and she winters better than some of the purebred black cows.Good carcass cattle don't have to be infertile and slabsided even though alot are-selling on the grid for years has taught me that.
 
DOC HARRIS said:
I will assure you that, indeed, the individual known as "Soapweed" does use EPD's in his very large and vast Cattle operation.
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Doc, thanks for thinking that I run a more sophisticated ranch than it is in actual reality. Probably a more apt term would be that it is a "half vast" operation. :? :-)

Truthfully, there is not a bull on the ranch that has any EPDs. I try to buy the best bulls available for the cheapest price, and try to do so in volume. My cows are just commercial cows, and they have no false illusions of grandeur. All they care about is if their male consorts are macho and fertile. All I care about is that they produce good beefy calves with eye appeal, and I have found that good unpedigreed bulls can accomplish this job just as efficiently as those with royal blood and numbers.

In my younger days, sophistication and good numbers mattered. My bubbles were popped so many times in comparing reality to what was "supposed" to be, that I have become somewhat cynical in my older age. Some of the bulls that cost a lot would not turn out nearly as well as a "bargain basement special". The fact is I don't even want super-dooper EPDs. That creates extremes, and I am striving for moderation and uniformity in our cattle.

We are in the process of gathering bulls this week, and ol' Saddletramp and I spent a long morning getting a dozen bulls out of some distant pastures. Our horses got a good workout, but everything went pretty slick. I use all yearling bulls for just one season, and then sell them about now. Next spring, we will start over with all yearling bulls again.

That is my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
I like Soapweed's philosophy. A friend of mine lives and dies EPDs. He'll point out calves from so-and-so who's EPDs are such-and-such, and we'll be looking at a calf with a pot gut and rump no bigger than a cat's.
 
Soapweed said:
DOC HARRIS said:
I will assure you that, indeed, the individual known as "Soapweed" does use EPD's in his very large and vast Cattle operation.
Click to expand...

Doc, thanks for thinking that I run a more sophisticated ranch than it is in actual reality. Probably a more apt term would be that it is a "half vast" operation. :? :-)

Truthfully, there is not a bull on the ranch that has any EPDs. I try to buy the best bulls available for the cheapest price, and try to do so in volume. My cows are just commercial cows, and they have no false illusions of grandeur. All they care about is if their male consorts are macho and fertile. All I care about is that they produce good beefy calves with eye appeal, and I have found that good unpedigreed bulls can accomplish this job just as efficiently as those with royal blood and numbers.

In my younger days, sophistication and good numbers mattered. My bubbles were popped so many times in comparing reality to what was "supposed" to be, that I have become somewhat cynical in my older age. Some of the bulls that cost a lot would not turn out nearly as well as a "bargain basement special". The fact is I don't even want super-dooper EPDs. That creates extremes, and I am striving for moderation and uniformity in our cattle.

We are in the process of gathering bulls this week, and ol' Saddletramp and I spent a long morning getting a dozen bulls out of some distant pastures. Our horses got a good workout, but everything went pretty slick. I use all yearling bulls for just one season, and then sell them about now. Next spring, we will start over with all yearling bulls again.

That is my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Soapweed - Thanks for 'straightening' me out :o I assumed that you had a 'vast' operation by virtue of the pictures you posted a few weeks ago of your herd. I saw what they 'LOOKED LIKE' and I contend that you have EPD's in your herd that are 'nicking' very well with your cows - whether you are using them in your planning and management program - or not. They are there. EVERY living cow brute (and any other mammal) has EPD's, whether we combine them, increase them , decrease them, ignore them, play with them, pretend they are not there - - - THERE THEY ARE! The purebred breeders use EPD's for many purposes - to enhance selection choices for optimizing the characteristics of their herd cows and bulls, for balancing traits, - - -or- - -let's face this fact - - for "Sale Catalog" hyperbole and advertising. We have to just take them on faith that they are being honest! For whatever reasons or schemes or stratagems or gimmicks - EPD's are present in EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL - hidden or discernible - applicable or ignored.

I contend that we can approach perfection in our cattle managing efforts by being aware of the realities mentioned above - even if it amounts to REDUCING birth weights, milk production, mature brood cow size, Yearling weights - - or- - INCREASING Weaning weights, scrotal circumference, calving EASE, marbling, Rib Eye Area, % of Retail Product or other desirable traits. Correct EPD's (CORRECT meaning for whatever traits you are seeking) result in YOUR correct Phenotype - whatever Phenotype you may desire.

The understanding of the uses of EPD's can be comparable to the understanding of genes: they can't be SEEN by the naked eye - but THERE THEY ARE. By proper use and application of those realities, a Breeder can minimize mistakes in breeding, and maximize his profits in production, whether it be Seedstock or Terminal - each endeavor dictating unique EPD's and breeding techniques - - - - usually! (You see - I try to leave myself an escape route so as to not be beaten about the head and shoulders by you guys!)

Soapweed - I have no problems with your management plans and skills! By careful timing you can get your breeding done in a timely manner resulting in concentrated calving periods - and not having to carry your bulls through the non-breeding periods. Terrific. And you may think your operation is 'half-vast'! I don't agree. 8)

DOC HARRIS
 
Sandhusker said:
I like Soapweed's philosophy. A friend of mine lives and dies EPDs. He'll point out calves from so-and-so who's EPDs are such-and-such, and we'll be looking at a calf with a pot gut and rump no bigger than a cat's.
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Sandhusker - Your friend's "pot-guts and cat's rump's" ( I call them "Funnel Butts" ) are in evidence everywhere. They are the result of the IMPROPER utilization ( or the complete ignorance of ) matching genes and EPD's between his cow's and the Bulls he chooses to breed to his cows. Just because one uses EPD's for trait-selection doesn't mean that all his calves are going to be Show Stoppers or market-toppers. And just because one says, "Oh, Yeah - MY bulls are registered!" also doesn't mean SQUAT! It probably means that the breeder didn't take EVERY factor into account when he decided to mate Bull A to Cow B! Just because a man reads a book doesn't mean that he knows what he read or how to put that knowledge into action. I would suggest that one not blame EPD's or unacceptable ideas for unsatisfactory results. Human beings are not infallable - nor are so-called 'good' ideas.
That is one reason why all the automobile manufacturers send out "Re-Call Notices" for the stupid mistakes that they make. :shock: One would think that the Engineers, with all their intelligence and experience, would know enough to avoid errors. - - - NOT! - - - And they have been building cars a lot longer than EPD's have been in evidence! :o Proper perception and correct application of knowledge is the Template for a successful cattle operation - whether it is utilizing Phenotype - or - Genotype - or - EPD's - or all of the above -----or - -just hit-and-miss experience. Hey - I say use EVERYTHING at your disposal. Just be darned sure that you KNOW what you are doing and WHY YOU ARE DOING IT! .Don't be confused :? Get educated and know that you know that you know! :D

DOC
 
I agree with Doc Harris! EPD'S must be utilized in the correct manner, and be taken with a grain of salt. As a seedstock producer we can custom make a bull to compliment anyones herd. The bull buyer must know what he needs to add to his herd to improve it. If you are breeding range cows to supply a terminal market with the calves, you would want to focus on WW and/or YW EPD'S. If you plan on keeping the heifers then you would want to focus on the maternal traits to better the herd in the future. Were you going to retain ownership of the calves you would pay close attention to the $ values. There are many diffrent EPD profiles available, the trick is to identify where your herd needs improvement to fit your marketing plan and buy accordingly. I am intrested if anyone agrees or disagrees?
 
I go a lot by eye appeal....Classy calves do wonders and pot bellied no butt bulls need not apply for work in at my place...

But eye appeal can't tell me anything about the Carcass, Gain or BW.....These are also important to me...

As far as liars, I have been fortunate to have some pretty good guys to buy from....I think surprises make for an honest evaluation of the breeder I buy from.....

One HUGE thing for me on EPD is Accuracy.... Lots of hot bulls, but give me the proven ones,


Just my 2 cents,

PPRM
 

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