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Comments on bull EPD's

The biggest problem in the beef business is 'THE next GREAT ONE syndrome'-you know the drill -the phone rings about Feb. with PB guys wondering whose going to be 'hot' this fall-not alot of respect for that type of breeding program. Most bulls are bypassed before a daughter hits second lactation. The overall quality of cattle is high enough today that improvement is more a tweaking of traits rather than the quantum leaps it was years ago. The commercial user of A.I. actually benefits as by the time a bull is proven the purebred boys move on and the semen price drops. All that being said someone has to use the young bulls to prove them-in our herd we take a young bull and use him across the herd-the good-the bad-the ugly. The bulls that can improve an udder two scores etc are what I like-if you just sample young bulls on your best cows it's hard to learn much-we all have cows that you could breed to a billy goat and get a good calf.
 
I agree 100%. In my program, we don't use a bull just because he is popular or has top EPDs. He MUST meet my criteria. I don't single trait select either. They have to be more of an all around bull. Sure I breed this bull to this cow because he may be stronger in one suit or another. But that is how I am trying to fix my cows. I don't really want extremes in anything. Just good doing, high performing, maternal cows. Afterall that is what my customers want.
 
BRG said:
I agree 100%. In my program, we don't use a bull just because he is popular or has top EPDs. He MUST meet my criteria. I don't single trait select either. They have to be more of an all around bull. Sure I breed this bull to this cow because he may be stronger in one suit or another. But that is how I am trying to fix my cows. I don't really want extremes in anything. Just good doing, high performing, maternal cows. Afterall that is what my customers want.
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BRG - - - - and I agree with your philosophy and prinicples also! Just think how the Beef BUSINESS would be functioning if every breeder FOCUSED his goals toward - good doing, high performing, maternal cows possessing all the traits which are required for those characteristics! Beef producers would be living "High on the Hog" ( if you'll pardon the expression :shock: )

DOC
 
We tend to generalize a lot, and complain about the minority of breeders in my opinion. So here's something I see having happened in our industry over the past 35 Years......

Go to any commercial herd that has been buying great bulls during that time....If you can talk him into it, Have him keep some steers as bulls, and you really will have some good producing bulls. I have done this a few times and gotten some good calves. The top commercial herds have some fantastic genetics....Guess what? It goes back to the Guys that have been supplying them. I can think of a dozen or so commercial herds around me that I wouldn't mind having Heifers or Bulls from....I'm not talking buying their culls at a saleyard... I am talking knock on the door and visit with them.... Heck, if you have good feed, buy some of their older cows...Might help both of you,


PPRM
 
PPRM said:
We tend to generalize a lot, and complain about the minority of breeders in my opinion. So here's something I see having happened in our industry over the past 35 Years......

Go to any commercial herd that has been buying great bulls during that time....If you can talk him into it, Have him keep some steers as bulls, and you really will have some good producing bulls. I have done this a few times and gotten some good calves. The top commercial herds have some fantastic genetics....Guess what? It goes back to the Guys that have been supplying them. I can think of a dozen or so commercial herds around me that I wouldn't mind having Heifers or Bulls from....I'm not talking buying their culls at a saleyard... I am talking knock on the door and visit with them.... Heck, if you have good feed, buy some of their older cows...Might help both of you,


PPRM
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- - - - -Right!. . . . .These practices are always good, solid business techniques - - - it is called "Networking" - and it works to everyone's advantage!
 
PPRM better yet raise some off your own top cows -ones you are sure will work in your enviroment. Were flushing a 14 year old commercial Angus cow to a highly proven Horned Hereford bull to generate some full sisters for replacements. This old girl has never stubbed a toe and I've actually sold a few bulls stateside off her. Here's a question what would a person pay for a set of full sib F1 heifers-A'I' bred to the bull of the buyers choice.
 
NR,

I have contemplated something similar.....I say if you are buying bulls, work with the guy...Don't just show up on Sale Day...Plan and develop with him (or her).

What I thought of is kinda like putting all your eggs in one basket, so go with a High Acc. EPD bull that has thrown calves you like.....My thot was if you need 6 Bulls, work with the guy to get them from 6 related cows....My thot was more uniformity in the whole calf crop...I am not talking linebreeding (Inbreeding) here, just getting very similar group of bulls to turn out with my cows,

As far as raising out of my top cows, my cows go back to about 5 females that have really proven themselves for me......So if I raised my own bulls, well too much chance for inbreeding, I am not a fan of Linebreeding...Just my thots...

PPRM
 
PPRM

I like the train of thought you are on! Some of our more progressive bull customers are using large groups of full or 3/4 brothers and are noticing more uniformity in the calf crop. (More so than with paternal brothers.

Brad
 
One of my heifer suppliers uses half brothers or better-got a 100 heifers from him that were all out of 1/2 and 3/4 borothers. I hardly just show up on sale day-tooo funny-my last bull I bought involved going through the herd with him and selecting the cows I'd like him to use the bull on. Like I said I don't buy many bulls-use alot of A'I and raise my own cleanup bulls. Most bulls we buy we end up owwning an interest in with the breeder. The E.T. work I'm talking about is to raise F1 replacement females-the cow we want to flush is pefectly sound at 14,easy fleshing, her daughters are some of our top carcass producing cows-her sons have all been sold as bulls or used ourselves.
 
Last fall the fellow i buy my herd bulls from brought another fellow down to buy some hfrs. I told him that 11 of the 14 bull that ran with the cows were the bull I bought from him and the rest were sons of that bull. He said no wonder they all look alike.
I buy a top bull and multiply him on my PB cows. Seems to work for me.
 
what HH bull are you going to use NR?
Do you have a picture of the Daughters of this cow?
I would like to see the records from her sons and daughters also.
What is the cows breeding?
How many Heifers would you expect to sell?
When would you sell them?
Would you AI them using sexed semen?
 
Do you consider this bull a better choice: 14966946
Mvc-007f.jpg


Bull on the right for $1800.
 
tom4018 said:
Do you consider this bull a better choice: 14966946
Mvc-007f.jpg


Bull on the right for $1800.
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Tom - Of course, you know that the picture is not adequate enough for an objective evaluation of him. From THIS picture he appears to be just an average Angus bull - better than just a "cow Freshener" - but not much more. His pedigree tells me that he is a double-bred Oak Hollow Troubadour 1118 - a result of his Sire's Dam being bred back to HER sire. If 1118 's Traits were OUTSTANDING this might be alright - but remember this; ALL traits, good AND not so good, are exemplified by close-breeding (or in-breeding).
Close-breeding is the way to improve your herd's quality, however ALL the desirable traits MUST be as optimal for your operation ( replacements or terminal ) as possible! OR even BETTER than possible! If that's possible! If you are serious about using this bull, I would certainly suggest that you LOOK AT his full sisters, AND his dam, if you can, and see THEIR offspring, because that will be what at least one/half of your calf crop(s) for as many years as you keep the bull will be like!

His birth weight EPD (+.1) is okay, his WW (+39) and YW (+72) is only fair, his Milk EPD at 15 is okay, his Ultrasound %RP is minus .02 - not good. My primary argument against him is that he is UNPROVEN ( no offspring yet) and his accuracy is only .05. You are really buying a "Pig in a Poke" so to speak.

My suggestion: AI your females to a really GOOD proven bull and perhaps keep however many heifers you so desire, or sell the calves and get some $$ for them. See how the AI results turn out. You will probably be surprised. And it will cost less than $1800 to find out!
 
Doc, you make it sound so easy, but not everyone is set up to AI, and some just plain don't have the inclination to do it. It does require quite a bit of labor. My husband isn't very interested in AI'ing although once in awhile I can get him to do it. The first year we lived here, we AI'ed and we tore up some stuff. For one thing, the people we bought this place from didn't have the best facilities. We handle our cattle very easy, but still, you need to have good facilitites to AI and we hadn't had a chance to improve them yet. (They are much better today.) Not everyone has good facilities. Ask a brand inspector sometime, what he encounters because of poor set-ups. And brand inspecting is nothing like AI'ing.

And honestly, I have seen cattle that have been AI'd for 10 years that aren't as good as some cattle that have been bred naturally. I don't know the reason and I will agree that doesn't make sense. I have scratched my head about it plenty and the only thing I can come up with is that they
didn't get as many bred AI as they thought they did, and many of the cows kept were offspring from natural service. You know, a lot of folks who do AI, buy pretty mediocre bulls for clean-up. I think it is a good idea to follow up that AI service with good bulls. Too bad there are so many mediocre bulls out there available for purchase.

With that said, I do agree that you can make improvement in leaps and bounds by AI'ing. One thing I don't agree with, is taking a poor to medium set of cows and AI'ing them. Why not start with some good quality cattle, even if you have to buy them? Then AI that bunch. Doing so will put you ahead about 5 years in your breeding program, IMO.
 
Garbage in-garbage out-freezing a bull's semen doesn't necessarily make hima great bull lol. We collect any promising young bulls because it costs about the same as insurance. It pays to use the best bull you can afford-the only thing worse than A'I'ing poor cows is using a poor bull on them. I use some of our plainer cows to test young bulls on-if a bull can noticeably improve some traits in poorer cows he probably has some merit.
 
Faster horses said:
Doc, you make it sound so easy, but not everyone is set up to AI, and some just plain don't have the inclination to do it. It does require quite a bit of labor. My husband isn't very interested in AI'ing although once in awhile I can get him to do it. The first year we lived here, we AI'ed and we tore up some stuff. For one thing, the people we bought this place from didn't have the best facilities. We handle our cattle very easy, but still, you need to have good facilitites to AI and we hadn't had a chance to improve them yet. (They are much better today.) Not everyone has good facilities. Ask a brand inspector sometime, what he encounters because of poor set-ups. And brand inspecting is nothing like AI'ing.

And honestly, I have seen cattle that have been AI'd for 10 years that aren't as good as some cattle that have been bred naturally. I don't know the reason and I will agree that doesn't make sense. I have scratched my head about it plenty and the only thing I can come up with is that they
didn't get as many bred AI as they thought they did, and many of the cows kept were offspring from natural service. You know, a lot of folks who do AI, buy pretty mediocre bulls for clean-up. I think it is a good idea to follow up that AI service with good bulls. Too bad there are so many mediocre bulls out there available for purchase.

With that said, I do agree that you can make improvement in leaps and bounds by AI'ing. One thing I don't agree with, is taking a poor to medium set of cows and AI'ing them. Why not start with some good quality cattle, even if you have to buy them? Then AI that bunch. Doing so will put you ahead about 5 years in your breeding program, IMO.
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I totally, totally agree - in spades! I think that my previous posts have advocated that very thing!
 
I agree that AIing will improve your herd, BUT, I have been around the entire U.S. trying to find herdbulls for myself and other purebred ranches. It is part of my business. I have seen some of the bulls that the so called AI studs have bought and are promoting. A lot of them aren't really that good. They have great #'s a good pedigree, and take a pretty picture, but their is way more to it than that. I have actually been disgusted with some of the bulls they select. Slab sided, shallow gutted, poor footed, etc. Now I don't mean all of the bulls. Their are several that turn out to be really good, but they look at it a little different than you and I. Around 90% of the semen sold goes to breed first calf heifers. So normally you want these type of bulls just for ease of calving. But if you AI your cows you need more power than what they typically have. So if most of their customers want calving ease type bulls that is what they are going to supply. A big problem with this though is that to many purebred breeders use these bulls hard and this is one reason why alot of the Angus(red or black) don't have a rearend and are loosing bone. So I guess all I am saying is if you AI, know what you are using, don't just use him becasue he is popular and takes a good picture. Check him out and ask other ranchers (that have used them) who like the same type of cattle that you do. Or use semen from your bull supplier, ussually they will very happy to sell some to you. If you trust him enough to buy bulls from, why not use the same herd bulls that he is using.

(All the bulls I have seen that I am reffering to above are both Red and Black Angus. I haven't paid enough attention to other breeds.)
 

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