Cross Over Subject - Abortion

[MsSage]

For those that think there is nobody to adopt minority and mixed race babies you could not be more wrong.

I said They were NOT allowed. In North Carolina the statue is only couples of like race shall adopt children. If you need I will get the paper given to my friends and scan the document . They were MORE then willing all they wanted was a child to love.

 

[CKC1586]

It is for me because I'm a woman old enough to have been in child bearing years before birth control and abortion were available.

I remember the first Planned Parenthood near our college town (about 50 miles away). I remember friends of mine risking their lives and their ability to ever have children and borrowing money from aunts to go to Mexico. One girl went TWICE. I don't know what happened to her but I don't think she emerged unscathed from the shame, keeping it from her mother (she was over eighteen), the fear of dying.

Mothers of large families who used birth control secretly broke the law and went out of state when they could afford it to a private doctor when they found their birth control had failed them.

No granddaughter of mine should ever have to be pregnant and unwed and without a choice.

As I have said before, birth control is more available and better (although not necessarily safer and definitely not foolproof) so abortion should be the LAST choice, but a choice nonetheless.

Fertile women, even those using birth control that was unreliable, had 10, 12, 15 children before they were mid 40s. Poor families sank further into poverty.

American Catholics rioted metaphorically at being left with only the rhythm method and there was a lasting rift with the church.

I remember all this. I am not an activist now on this issue but I will become one and so will millions of women if the Supreme Court actually tries to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Shame on those who are antiabortion and not concerned about the millions of poor, abandoned, abused children equally passionately.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Well, said. Freedom and choice for everyone is precious and must be protected. I expect this is going to get hot in here.

 

[Cal]

It is for me because I'm a woman old enough to have been in child bearing years before birth control and abortion were available.

I remember the first Planned Parenthood near our college town (about 50 miles away). I remember friends of mine risking their lives and their ability to ever have children and borrowing money from aunts to go to Mexico. One girl went TWICE. I don't know what happened to her but I don't think she emerged unscathed from the shame, keeping it from her mother (she was over eighteen), the fear of dying.

Mothers of large families who used birth control secretly broke the law and went out of state when they could afford it to a private doctor when they found their birth control had failed them.

No granddaughter of mine should ever have to be pregnant and unwed and without a choice.

As I have said before, birth control is more available and better (although not necessarily safer and definitely not foolproof) so abortion should be the LAST choice, but a choice nonetheless.

Fertile women, even those using birth control that was unreliable, had 10, 12, 15 children before they were mid 40s. Poor families sank further into poverty.

American Catholics rioted metaphorically at being left with only the rhythm method and there was a lasting rift with the church.

I remember all this. I am not an activist now on this issue but I will become one and so will millions of women if the Supreme Court actually tries to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Shame on those who are antiabortion and not concerned about the millions of poor, abandoned, abused children equally passionately.

Don't forget to point out to said granddaughter that grandma would have just as willingly had her dissected and sucked down a sink had she been concieved at any type of inconvenience and embarassment.

Social Services need to get much tougher on permanently removing abused and neglected children from a home and putting them up for permanent adoption. In case you haven't noticed these children are being born anyway.

 

[Nicky]

I'm in favor of Choice,the choices being what you do with a child AFTER its born...Keep it and give it the best home you can or put it up for adoption and let it have the best home you can give it.!!!

Ditto

 

[Juan]

ckc1586... "Freedom and choice for everyone is precious and must be protected"

Seems you are counting the baby out!

Reader....Same old b... s ....Since when were you made an expert on what Catholics do and say?

Kudos for you MsSage. :clap:

 

[Maple Leaf Angus]

It is for me because I'm a woman old enough to have been in child bearing years before birth control and abortion were available.

I remember the first Planned Parenthood near our college town (about 50 miles away). I remember friends of mine risking their lives and their ability to ever have children and borrowing money from aunts to go to Mexico. One girl went TWICE. I don't know what happened to her but I don't think she emerged unscathed from the shame, keeping it from her mother (she was over eighteen), the fear of dying.

Mothers of large families who used birth control secretly broke the law and went out of state when they could afford it to a private doctor when they found their birth control had failed them.

No granddaughter of mine should ever have to be pregnant and unwed and without a choice.

As I have said before, birth control is more available and better (although not necessarily safer and definitely not foolproof) so abortion should be the LAST choice, but a choice nonetheless.

Fertile women, even those using birth control that was unreliable, had 10, 12, 15 children before they were mid 40s. Poor families sank further into poverty.

American Catholics rioted metaphorically at being left with only the rhythm method and there was a lasting rift with the church.

I remember all this. I am not an activist now on this issue but I will become one and so will millions of women if the Supreme Court actually tries to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Shame on those who are antiabortion and not concerned about the millions of poor, abandoned, abused children equally passionately.

Don't forget to point out to said granddaughter that grandma would have just as willingly had her dissected and sucked down a sink had she been concieved at any type of inconvenience and embarassment.

Social Services need to get much tougher on permanently removing abused and neglected children from a home and putting them up for permanent adoption. In case you haven't noticed these children are being born anyway.

We can always count on you, Cal, to miss the point and say something brutal and mean spirited. Thanks.

Reader, it is almost amusing to read your trucelent responses to those who present a view that you do not like.

What Cal said is most certainly brutal, but I do not see where he was being mean-spirited. Having said that, I do not know how abortion could honestly be described as anything but brutal.

Brutal not only to the developing, sensing, human baby, but also brutal and traumatic in after-effect on the mother. The long-term effects on the woman are, in my understanding, seldom adequately addressed by those who profit from the procedure. Yes, I said profit.

This issue is not altogether black and white, IMHO, but it is certainly people like yourself who are being niave and trite by simply and lightly passing it off as a routine, inconsequential procedure that is just another form of birth control.

It would appear that in your efforts to be politically correct, you would lay aside any good judgment or conscience that you might possess.

Now go ahead and tell me that I am being mean-spirited. I really don't give a damn.

 

[Mrs.Greg]

Reader I have to differ with you about mens feelings on abortion.Greg is Totally pro-choice whereas I totally DO NOT favor abortion,for ANY reason!!

 

[Shelly]

Don't start knocking me, but I'm in agreement with R2. There are certain situations where abortion is probably the best solution for all involved. Health problems, home environments, teenage girls, etc., etc. And I hate to burst alot of bubbles here, but ALOT of teenage boys WILL NOT accept part of the responsibility of impregnating a girl. They'll turn on their heels and run as far and as fast as they can!

 

[Mrs.Greg]

Some topics just shouldn't be put up for debate,abortion is one.The reason is abortion and how an individual feels about it is SOOO personal!!Its very hard to debate an issue that will NOT change a persons personal point of view.This has been an interesting thread,religion,morals,feelings,personal expirences all brought up.Did anyones view on topic change...probably not so why argue about somthing SO intimate.??

 

[Faster horses]

I heartily agree, Mrs. Greg and I really didn't think this should have been brought over to Coffee Shop. It was already a heated topic in Political Bull. I hope it is done with under Coffee Shop at least.

 

[Maple Leaf Angus]

It seems appropriate to point out to you, r2, that when people resort to using generalizations to support their argument, they really are demonstrating that they have nothing concrete to offer.

r2, you generalize in saying that men are sexually wanton and irresponsible. You generalized (or was it a fabrication) when you said that I hold women to a higher level of responsiblity (than males) to avoid pregancy.

You generalize in saying that men don't pay attention (often don't respond) to their little babies. There are men that I know who provide more gentle nurture to their babies than the one who gave birth to that baby.

I made reference to specific comments in your posts and I can only suppose that you resorted to generalizations because you did not want, or could not, respond to the points I raised.

And then you dare speak of respect. Where is the respect for the life of the unborn baby? I know that there are extremely delicate situations where it is difficult to see where the greater harm lies - in allowing the pregnancy to continue or to end it. And I acknowledge the fact that I am not the one affected by the decision made either way, therefore I must respect their needs.

It seems to be a common "liberal" characteristic to play the "respect" card when all other persuasive tactics fail. Yet, the same ones who use it don't really seem to understand its application any better than those they fault for an apparent lack of it.

So gimmee a break, r2, and lay off the "respect" issue until you prove that you are any better at showing it than I am or anyone else who holds an opinion that differs with yours.

And as far as asking me to bow out . . . gee, I must be scary or really getting to you for you to stoop to such a tactic.

Oh yes, and I want to thank you for your delightful description of me as being "petulant" - after hearing some of the tags others tried to hang on me, that sounded quite benign, although you may may have intended otherwise.

Have a good day, ma'am.

 

[Maple Leaf Angus]

I'm sorry for having continued this thread after it was suggested that the debate should be discontinued here. I made the post without having read the previous 2 posts.

No more from me on this topic.

 

[MsSage]

I dont see where talking about this issue would be out of place. Maybe people wanted to be able to talk in a comfortable place ..ie coffee shop. Sometimes people feel better to address an issue so touchy when they feel at home. This issue is not going away. BUT I have found that if you want to change a persons mind about a topic you have to listen to them first. You can NOT attack them .......One reason I stopped reading some of the post in PB. The only way to change a persons stand such as abortion is through the HEART and that takes talking. We are all adults here and should be able to talk about such a personal issue and leave the person attacks and name calling on the playgroud with the kids.
As with anything or place if something does not agree with your view or you KNOW you will get upset you do NOT have to read it. The joy of the internet.....skip the topic~post~person.
I do not agree with R2 but I welcome her views ~she has brought up some things that need to be addressed. We have come a LONG way since the 60's and YES I am old enough to remember them. We have a bit farther to go in the area of womens rights. I do NOT totaly agree with the "feminst movement" I feel they did some damage to women. They did alot of good in regards to better pay and job opportunities.
So my 2 cents worth is leave it here and remember we are all friends here and NO ONE tries to hurt their friend.

 

[ranchwife]

I heartily agree, Mrs. Greg and I really didn't think this should have been brought over to Coffee Shop. It was already a heated topic in Political Bull. I hope it is done with under Coffee Shop at least.

AMEN, Faster Horses!!! I could not possibly agree with you more.....this topic DOES NOT BELONG ON COFFEE SHOP...take it back to the political forum or to the bull session where it truly belongs!!!

 

[V_Key]

Nope, you're being petulant because I annoyed you last night.

It's funny isn't it how a bunch of guys are ganging up on a woman who dares to answer Old Dog/New Trick's question honestly, with her honest opinion about what choice means for girls and women.

Debate is one thing. Sanctimony and lack of empathy or respect for multiple opinions is another.

My take on the issues is by no means black and white or trite, which you would know if you bothered to read my previous posts. I am not in favor of abortion as a means of birth control, nor do I think it should be easy to get abortions after the first trimester.

Now bow out until you learn how to look at these issues from all sides. It was clear from how you expressed yourself that you see it as an issue of female responsibility, blame, and probably female wantonness. If that is not how you feel, then you expressed yourself quite badly late last night.

OldDog's not here right now but I know he and I stand with you!

 

[Hanta Yo]

I'm in favor of Choice,the choices being what you do with a child AFTER its born...Keep it and give it the best home you can or put it up for adoption and let it have the best home you can give it.!!!

YYYYEEEESSSSS! Mrs. Greg, you said it JUST RIGHT! :clap: :clap: :nod: :nod:

However, I think Old Dogs/New Tricks should have put his "tricks" in Political Bull or Bull Sessions.

 

[crabby]

Don't start knocking me, but I'm in agreement with R2. There are certain situations where abortion is probably the best solution for all involved. Health problems, home environments, teenage girls, etc., etc. And I hate to burst alot of bubbles here, but ALOT of teenage boys WILL NOT accept part of the responsibility of impregnating a girl. They'll turn on their heels and run as far and as fast as they can!

They can still have their babies and put them up for adoption.........

 

[sw]

OK you Liberals here is what I have to say about this. We were told by our wonderful doctors that we should abort Mandy, she should be a Downs child that we could not deal with. She has won more awards than should be ever given to one child for physical things and mental things and they will not stop and those professionals said that we should terminate this pregnacy because we could not handle the outcome. KISSS THISS. Your abortion crap don't hold water at this house. That is killing a human being. If you think that abortion should be a legal means of birth control than you better start rethinking your hole card cause you aint got nothing.

 

[sw]

ONE more thing that has to be addressed is that a woman has the right to choose whether she spreads her legs or not to start with. She has the right. don't go giving me any of this lib crap. The woman has the power. She can use it how she feels fit. My first wife went down and had an abortion because she did not think that she could raise a third child. She called me from the clinic to get a ride home and could not understand why I TOLD HER TO PACK HER STUFF. Don't start giving me this men are evil garbage because women are as much to blame as we are you womens libers started this

 

[CJ]

CJ:What input do you believe the father of the child should have in this decision? If he is able/willing to be responsible for the welfare of the child, should his opinion matter?

R2:Yes. But not to force a woman to bear a child.

So, his opinion matters only as long as it coincides with the womans'. If he does not agree, then the father is just to accept the fact that his child will be killed because the female involved doesn't want the inconvenience of carrying it or doesn't want to give the father the opportunity to raise the child. You were offended by some of the responses that you thought implied that women showed a lack of discretion to be in this position. You implied that given a chance that many men were sexually irresponsible. I will not argue that that is true in some cases. I agreed with your assertion that men were 50% responsible for the situation. Taking responsibility also implies having a say in what happens to the child. You seem to be saying that women rightly hold all the power and that men should just accept whatever her decision is. Responsibility with absolutely no authority. Do you not see something odd there? I know several folks wish this topic would go away. I will not post on this again here.