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Oldtimer said:
A National ID is feared/opposed by many from all sides of the political spectrum-- real conservatives- pro 2nd Amendment rights groups- Libertarians- Constitutionalists- the left- the ACLU- etc...

When Bush proposed the Real ID Act numerous states opposed it- not only on the issue of the cost to the states but due to the fact it portrayed the image of one more step toward a Police state-- and of the WWII films of the Gestapo standing at a railroad station demanding "your papers"...

Arkansas, Arizona, Colorado, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Washington have joined Maine and Utah in passing legislation opposing Real ID
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Click to expand...

I understand the issue.. and meant solely to defend state's rights..

While there is little provision in the Constitution for federal election requirements, the right is left to the states.. as it should be..

but the issue is now abuse.. and how it should be solved.. a state ID would solve it..

a voter tamper resistant voter registration card with a picture would solve it..

and yes a national ID would solve it.. but we already have one ... a SS card.. it is just not tamper proof nor supposed to be a national ID.. :shock:


the real solution may be to just update the SS card and misuse it's purpose more.. :?
 
BRG said:
question

What would the difference be between a national ID card and a social security card?
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The SSI card is supposed to be just for employment purposes-- the set up of the National ID was that it would be needed to be shown to get on any bus, train, plane, public transport, enter any Federal building,-- and the fear of many of these groups was that it would soon be required to make any business or banking transaction or purchase-- and essentially provide the Federal government with a minute by minute computer trail of all your actions or movements...

As a former law enforcement officer- I think making everyone carry an ID would be great-make law enforcements job much easier- and provide another subpeonable way of tracking folks--- altho I do think its an infringement on your rights...
 
BRG said:
question

What would the difference be between a national ID card and a social security card?
Click to expand...

I disagree with OT... the abuse of the intent of the SS card is so bad the real intent is now gone.. it is a defacto national ID..

it is required at all levels of government as ID and commerce..

putting a picture and basic identification information on it would make it a national ID

would it be any worse to totally disregard the SS card/number's intent?
 
Oldtimer said:
portrayed the image of one more step toward a Police state-- and of the WWII films of the Gestapo standing at a railroad station demanding "your papers"...
Click to expand...

the difference with the current use of the SS number and card to the gastopo is the use as an ID is optional* in the US,.. in Germany not carrying "papers" usually got you shot behind the train station..

to me that was clearly an infringement on your rights..
 
Would it be an infringement on your rights if someone went in to vote and told them they were you and got your ballot and voted it?
 
oldtimer wrote.
The SSI card is supposed to be just for employment purposes,,

Yea right!!!
Try to get a credit card without using your SS number!
Try getting a drivers license without one!
How about getting a passport!
Why are you required to get a SS # for an infant, are they going to work???

Try doing a bank transaction without divulging that information< still in the stone ages it looks like guess right oldtimer!!!

Or do you just not really understand the process
EH!!!!
 
hopalong said:
oldtimer wrote.
The SSI card is supposed to be just for employment purposes,,

Yea right!!!
Try to get a credit card without using your SS number!
Try getting a drivers license without one!
How about getting a passport!
Why are you required to get a SS # for an infant, are they going to work???

Try doing a bank transaction without divulging that information< still in the stone ages it looks like guess right oldtimer!!!

Or do you just not really understand the process
EH!!!!
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In 1943 a presidential executive order directed the military and other government agencies to use the number for identification purposes,

and in 1961 the Internal Revenue Service began using the number for taxpayer identification.

Eventually states began requesting the number on driver's license applications and the like.

Social Security cards up until the 1970s expressly stated the number and card were not to be used for identification purposes. Since nearly everyone in the United States now has a number, it became convenient to use it anyway and the message was removed
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SSA added a legend to the bottom of the card reading "FOR SOCIAL SECURITY PURPOSES -- NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION." This legend was removed as part of the design changes for the 18th version of the card, issued beginning in 1972. The legend has not been on any new cards issued since 1972.
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basically they kept chipping away at it, (like our Constitution), to the point few could actually remember the original intent.

now that all original intent is gone,... it is a defacto ID card..
 
Actually in MT you do not need your Social Security number on your D/L... The individual rights/libertarian/privatism trend in this state took over- and where the normal D/L id number is your SSI number- you can object to that- and the state will issue you a D/L number....

This was really a big issue with the forerunners to the MT Tea Party- namely the Posse, Freemen, and anti Tax groups among other radical right anti federal government groups....

If I remember right- the ACLU also backed them on the issue....
 
Oldtimer said:
This was really a big issue with the forerunners to the MT Tea Party- namely the Posse, Freemen, and anti Tax groups among other radical right anti federal government groups........
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Real cute of you trying to lump The Tea Party with those other groups.
 
Oldtimer said:
Actually in MT you do not need your Social Security number on your D/L... The individual rights/libertarian/privatism trend in this state took over- and where the normal D/L id number is your SSI number- you can object to that- and the state will issue you a D/L number....

This was really a big issue with the forerunners to the MT Tea Party- namely the Posse, Freemen, and anti Tax groups among other radical right anti federal government groups....

If I remember right- the ACLU also backed them on the issue....
Click to expand...

Originally it was not SUPPOSED to be used for ID PERIOD most states no longer require it to be on your D.L. , oldtimer ever try to get a credit card without giving then you SS number?
Heck even to get a cell phone the use it as ID.
Your argument gets weaker all the time!!! No big surprise there
oldtimer likes to lump every one into one group, if they oppose anything he believes in OH VEY
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

EH?
 
There is no need for national ids, every state already issues ids. Control should rest with the state. There should be a rwquirment made to use it- now what is the excuse?

I wish ss cards had photos so that the punk who stole mine can't use it to finance a new boat, establish a credit card, sale it, or get employment OR quit allowing it to be used as an id- since it does not even have a photo to id me with.
 
Oldtimer said:
Actually in MT you do not need your Social Security number on your D/L... The individual rights/libertarian/privatism trend in this state took over- and where the normal D/L id number is your SSI number- you can object to that- and the state will issue you a D/L number....

This was really a big issue with the forerunners to the MT Tea Party- namely the Posse, Freemen, and anti Tax groups among other radical right anti federal government groups....

If I remember right- the ACLU also backed them on the issue....
Click to expand...

actually here in liberal New Jersey it hasn't been on the drivers license,. but you still have to show your SS# to get a drivers license, register a vehicle or anything else at the DMV

is that different in MT?
 
Oldtimer said:
Actually in MT you do not need your Social Security number on your D/L... The individual rights/libertarian/privatism trend in this state took over- and where the normal D/L id number is your SSI number- you can object to that- and the state will issue you a D/L number....

This was really a big issue with the forerunners to the MT Tea Party- namely the Posse, Freemen, and anti Tax groups among other radical right anti federal government groups....

If I remember right- the ACLU also backed them on the issue....
Click to expand...

Lots of states allow you withold the state from printing your SS number on your drivers license for security purposes.

But an "original" U.S. Social Security Card is one from of acceptable ID for obtaing a drivers license. Even in Montana.
 
Mike said:
Oldtimer said:
Actually in MT you do not need your Social Security number on your D/L... The individual rights/libertarian/privatism trend in this state took over- and where the normal D/L id number is your SSI number- you can object to that- and the state will issue you a D/L number....

This was really a big issue with the forerunners to the MT Tea Party- namely the Posse, Freemen, and anti Tax groups among other radical right anti federal government groups....

If I remember right- the ACLU also backed them on the issue....
Click to expand...

Lots of states allow you withold the state from printing your SS number on your drivers license for security purposes.

But an "original" U.S. Social Security Card is one from of acceptable ID for obtaing a drivers license. Even in Montana.
Click to expand...

Yep- ONE form"....But not the ONLY or required form....

Lots of folks up here have refused to use that "federal" ID as a means of getting one- or allowed that Federal number to be put on their D/L's.....

Steve- I can't think of anything that I've done in years that required a SS card be shown....I lost my wallet riding onetime 15-20 years ago- and never had one for years...

May be the reason the majority of the populace and the State Legislators/Governor kept telling GW and his Homeland Security boys to stick it when they first tried to shove Real ID/National ID down our throats ....
 
Oldtimer said:
Mike said:
Oldtimer said:
Actually in MT you do not need your Social Security number on your D/L... The individual rights/libertarian/privatism trend in this state took over- and where the normal D/L id number is your SSI number- you can object to that- and the state will issue you a D/L number....

This was really a big issue with the forerunners to the MT Tea Party- namely the Posse, Freemen, and anti Tax groups among other radical right anti federal government groups....

If I remember right- the ACLU also backed them on the issue....
Click to expand...

Lots of states allow you withold the state from printing your SS number on your drivers license for security purposes.

But an "original" U.S. Social Security Card is one from of acceptable ID for obtaing a drivers license. Even in Montana.
Click to expand...

Yep- ONE form"....But not the ONLY or required form....

Lots of folks up here have refused to use that "federal" ID as a means of getting one- or allowed that Federal number to be put on their D/L's.....

Steve- I can't think of anything that I've done in years that required a SS card be shown....I lost my wallet riding onetime 15-20 years ago- and never had one for years...

May be the reason the majority of the populace and the State Legislators/Governor kept telling GW and his Homeland Security boys to stick it when they first tried to shove Real ID/National ID down our throats ....
Click to expand...

It isn't so much the paper card, but the number that is used for ID.

and like I said.. in NJ you could not even register or renew the registration of a vehicle with out providing it..

if you have filed taxes in the last twenty years you have provided the number as "proof" of who you are..

the number is the primary ID of every citizen..

I've had some older accounts that have requested it.. and I have declined.. but I am sure if I made any change to those accounts they would use that as a reason to "require it"

so in reality it is the primary "defacto" ID instead of let me see your papers it is what is your SS#

so what really is the difference? (other then getting shot behind the station)
 

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