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FUNNEL BUTTS & GREED! - It' a CATCH 22!

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Well Doc,its unanimous,we all agree with your obsevations,now what ?................good luck
 
It's funny that poor cattlemen are blamed for the poorer quality of bulls, not the packers who suposedly control the industry.

Has anyone ever wondered what happens to those poorer quality cattle?

I read an article some time back that described how many people can potentially be affected by a poor eating experience from a poor or poorly managed animal. It was something like 300. Figure maybe 20 animals from that 'outfit' that's possibly 6000 people who are potentially unsatisfied with that beef.
 
Jason said:
It's funny that poor cattlemen are blamed for the poorer quality of bulls, not the packers who suposedly control the industry.

Has anyone ever wondered what happens to those poorer quality cattle?

I read an article some time back that described how many people can potentially be affected by a poor eating experience from a poor or poorly managed animal. It was something like 300. Figure maybe 20 animals from that 'outfit' that's possibly 6000 people who are potentially unsatisfied with that beef.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that what we ranchers call a "poor" animal is always a bad eating animal. Often Holstein beef is the most marbled & tender stuff you can get, but I sure wouldn't want to raise cattle like them. Just goes back to Doc's original comment - lots of cattle with no butt ends still make it as bulls .... Maybe those bulls have great EPD's, but it sure wouldn't convince my to buy one.

I wonder if our selection for some of the carcass traits using EPD's has led us down the wrong path. Of course, we have to use these EPD's as "tools," and use our eye first. But some just buy on EPD's alone.
 
I've made the same comments before, Doc. The last time I counted bulls in ads in the Angus World magazine - the Canadian Angus publication - there were over 5000 advertised, not including the sales that didn't give their numbers. In the whole book, 90% of them did not impress me with their pics, or else they were programs I know and wouldn't buy from b/c of their quality - or lack thereof. :mad:

The Hereford breed went through alot of quality issues, and the Angus breed has been going through it too long. Everyone with 20 cows has to put on a friggin sale it seems like. :mad: Course there's plenty of outfits w/a couple hundred or more, that can't seem to raise 5 good bulls per year!! It's a damn shame. I miss the days when Ag. Societies put sales on, and a selection committee picked every bull. Politics, maybe. Crappy bulls, not likely.

Oh, well. All I can do about it is not buy their crap.
 
HAY MAKER said:
Well Doc,its unanimous,we all agree with your obsevations,now what ?................good luck
Click to expand...
There are those who perceive that I say TOO much! Therefore I will make my comments and my answer to your question, "now what?" concise and to the point! Act with Integrity and Cut with Alacrity!

DOC HARRIS
 
A funnel butt is a nicer way to say pin a$$ed

The pin bones are on each side of the tailhead and an ideal looking animal has as wide of pin bones as hip bones.

Imagine looking at a bull from behind and above, a funnel butt is like a V and a wide butt is more like a U.
 
Jason said:
A funnel butt is a nicer way to say pin a$$ed

The pin bones are on each side of the tailhead and an ideal looking animal has as wide of pin bones as hip bones.

Imagine looking at a bull from behind and above, a funnel butt is like a V and a wide butt is more like a U.
Click to expand...
This intepretation of a "Funnel Butt" is only partially accurate. This is the perception from behind and above, and to that extent it is accurate. However, when observing the animal from the SIDE - the Rear Leg Musculature (Butt or Round) should carry down fully and approach the Hock with fullness and thickness to be optimal. In a hog it is analogous to the "Ham". If that musculature is thin and lacking in fullness and thickness, it could appear as if it could be 'jammed' down in a funnel, with the large open end upward and the small opening of the funnel near the hock of the animal. Voilla! Funnel Butt! I readily admit the term is not "physiologically correct" - but it is pretty darned descriptive and I take credit for bringing it to the vernacular of the Beef Cattle Community. Unfortunately, IN MY OPINION, it APPEARS that the higher the EPD's for Maternal Traits, Marbling, and Calving Ease Maternal become (and maybe even the LOWER the Scrotal Circumference EPD also) the greater tendency there is for - FUNNEL BUTTS! Another "Catch 22"! This is just my opinion - I have not done any extensive research relating to the subject - just OBSERVATION and EXTRAPOLATION. Possibly the Beef Industry as a whole should come up with a new Ultrasound EPD! Anti-Funnel Butt (AFB) expressed in square inches, is a predictor of the difference in ultrasound muscle thickness measured and registered 8" above an animal's hock joint of a sire's progeny compared to the progeny of other sires and including the circumferential measurement in inches of the thigh at that same 8" location! The ultimate result?! Angus breedstock with Butts like Continental breeds possess! EUREKA (Just on the outside chance that any of you people think that I am serious with this suggestion of a new EPD - - - -think again!)

DOC HARRIS
 
Doc,

Holstiens and Jerseys Marble well and have the same hind end you describe....Wagyu's look like Angus x Corriente, LOL.....You aren't wrong, but there are exceptions. That is what we need to seek out....I like your description of the ultimate epd and phenotype....As a small time buyer of butcher cows, the rear end is a good indicator of yield. Yield is what makes or breaks me buying Butcher Cows, so I am particularly sensitive to what you describe.....


The exceptions are there and to make them more common, we need to bid them up. I keep goig back to 30 years ago when many thought growth and calving ease were exclusive, they don't have to be,.

..Let the Gunsells buy the high epd, poor looking Bull calves. When they go out of business, the guys selling the right cattle will still have the rest of us as thier customers, LOL.


Thanks for you posts, I find them informative,

PPRM
 
Doc, Just to approach the GREED factor. We here in Oklahoma have a group of Angus seedstock producers, 3 in particular who attend each others sales regularly. They trade with one another at their sales and pay top dollar. With the only intent to drive the prices up! A working man cannot compete with their bids! These breeders one in particular from central Oklahoma is already one of the wealthiest in the business. So WHY? is this necessary?! When will the prices ever be high enough for them? When will they ever make enough money? Ever?
I say enough is enough boycott and do business elsewhere, I do!
reese
 
Watched some of Stevenson's sale yeasterday they were selling some bred heifer's all I can say is they sure stuck someone on some of those the were of a sorry bunch.Caught the end of the bull sale they were still in the $3500 to $4000 range some one of the bulls they sold had a 522# weaning weight maybe these outfits should buy a knife.But if yer dumb enough to buy they surely will help you out of yer money..
 
coulee reese, I couldn't agree more. I know exactly which three breeders you speak of, and it is strictly a marketing thing. I DO NOT ADVOCATE THIS APPROACH. However, there is nothing that can be done as they don't care. For instance the cow that sold for 215,000 from one of those places this fall may not have brought the final bid price. There are a million ways to arrange something like that. The buyer may have paid 50,000 and then only owned a portion of her, or for every 10,000 over let's say 75,000 was going to receive a heifer pregnancy. THIS IS ALL FOR EXAMPLE I DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WAS ARRANGED. By doing this theu can say a 15 daughters of bull X averaged X dollars. 100% of that crap is arranged prior to the sale. I am almost positive that on those three sales they already knew where the first twenty five head were going and what they were going to bring. It is a nice feeling to sell something for upper five figures or six, but to stay fluid you must be able to sell that 2,000 - 2,500 bred heifer of 3 in 1 package to a local guy who can turn her out to pasture and she will preform above his herd average, and calve on time every year with a big calf. This gives a good experience to the customer. when you lead a sale off with a 1/4 million dollar cow the locals who will make you the most REAL money over time are so shocked they start thinking just like you, and I don't blame you one bit. Sorry to share so much on this topic, but this really irks me as I have had to out bid all 3 of those places at one time or another with REAL money to add a breeding piece to the herd.
 
Angus Breeder said:
coulee reese, I couldn't agree more. I know exactly which three breeders you speak of, and it is strictly a marketing thing. I DO NOT ADVOCATE THIS APPROACH. However, there is nothing that can be done as they don't care. For instance the cow that sold for 215,000 from one of those places this fall may not have brought the final bid price. There are a million ways to arrange something like that. The buyer may have paid 50,000 and then only owned a portion of her, or for every 10,000 over let's say 75,000 was going to receive a heifer pregnancy. THIS IS ALL FOR EXAMPLE I DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WAS ARRANGED. By doing this theu can say a 15 daughters of bull X averaged X dollars. 100% of that crap is arranged prior to the sale. I am almost positive that on those three sales they already knew where the first twenty five head were going and what they were going to bring. It is a nice feeling to sell something for upper five figures or six, but to stay fluid you must be able to sell that 2,000 - 2,500 bred heifer of 3 in 1 package to a local guy who can turn her out to pasture and she will preform above his herd average, and calve on time every year with a big calf. This gives a good experience to the customer. when you lead a sale off with a 1/4 million dollar cow the locals who will make you the most REAL money over time are so shocked they start thinking just like you, and I don't blame you one bit. Sorry to share so much on this topic, but this really irks me as I have had to out bid all 3 of those places at one time or another with REAL money to add a breeding piece to the herd.
Click to expand...

Makes it hard for a small breeder like myself to compete. I Cannot compete I should say. Their way of doing business is totally unethical and I think someone should complain to the association, if it would help...?
reese
 
DOC HARRIS said:
Jason said:
A funnel butt is a nicer way to say pin a$$ed

The pin bones are on each side of the tailhead and an ideal looking animal has as wide of pin bones as hip bones.

Imagine looking at a bull from behind and above, a funnel butt is like a V and a wide butt is more like a U.
Click to expand...
This intepretation of a "Funnel Butt" is only partially accurate. This is the perception from behind and above, and to that extent it is accurate. However, when observing the animal from the SIDE - the Rear Leg Musculature (Butt or Round) should carry down fully and approach the Hock with fullness and thickness to be optimal. In a hog it is analogous to the "Ham". If that musculature is thin and lacking in fullness and thickness, it could appear as if it could be 'jammed' down in a funnel, with the large open end upward and the small opening of the funnel near the hock of the animal. Voilla! Funnel Butt! I readily admit the term is not "physiologically correct" - but it is pretty darned descriptive and I take credit for bringing it to the vernacular of the Beef Cattle Community. Unfortunately, IN MY OPINION, it APPEARS that the higher the EPD's for Maternal Traits, Marbling, and Calving Ease Maternal become (and maybe even the LOWER the Scrotal Circumference EPD also) the greater tendency there is for - FUNNEL BUTTS! Another "Catch 22"! This is just my opinion - I have not done any extensive research relating to the subject - just OBSERVATION and EXTRAPOLATION. Possibly the Beef Industry as a whole should come up with a new Ultrasound EPD! Anti-Funnel Butt (AFB) expressed in square inches, is a predictor of the difference in ultrasound muscle thickness measured and registered 8" above an animal's hock joint of a sire's progeny compared to the progeny of other sires and including the circumferential measurement in inches of the thigh at that same 8" location! The ultimate result?! Angus breedstock with Butts like Continental breeds possess! EUREKA

DOC HARRIS
Click to expand...

I enjoy reading your posts Doc but I THINK that the Angus breed was not meant to look like Continentals. Having said that, I would agree that there are quite a few angus bloodlines that need improvement in the rear end but I can't help but wonder that if "improvement" isn't done in moderation will we be giving up those traits angus are noted for -maternal , marbling , etc.? I have tried tosave quite a few heifers over the years out of angus/continental crosses and quite a few times I have ran into fertility problems as compared to straight bred angus or angus/english crosses. Just something to think about, plus with the advent of ultrasound we can now see inside that animal and predict those carcass traits and from my perpespective some of the highly touted carcass bulls just don't have that big rear end we are talking about. Oh well its fun trying to breed that perfect animal isn't it? JMHO
 
first met Wayne Stevenson in the late '80's-he really impressed me as a master stockman-I used to phone him from time to time to pick his brain on the cattle business and he always had time to talk to this hick from the sticks. I was on my way to visit him the night he got killed in fact. Sadly to say I think that particulat breeding program has maybe regressed a bit since they lost him. Or it could maybe just be trying to see too many cattle.
 
All the fuss that some place on the profile of an animal around the flank area is just cosmetics.

Draw a line from the top of the shoulder to the upper rear hock of an animal and 80-85% of the value of the animal is ABOVE that line.

Getting a thicker hock, flank etc only adds more trim to an animal.

I agree some Angus bulls are too high cut in the flank, but they have also been scanning with large ribeye, the most valuable area of the animal.

If the leg structure is strong enough for the bull or cow to travel well, it is sufficient.

During the glue days of the Angus breed a thick leg bone was desired so many puffed and glued the hair up to resemble a Simmental bone. I like a sturdy leg bone, but Angus have always been a lighter boned animal. A small round bone is stronger than a large oblong bone.

Lower weaning weights (that 550 range) is very common in short grass areas. Remember it is a 205 day weight. I am not a huge fan of Stevensons, but to their credit they are a ranch outfit. They don't creep feed (at least not all I don't know about the top few).

So many people are fooled by a feed bucket. Heifers that go out in decent shape might not look as shiny but they don't fall apart when they arrive in the real world either.
 
Feed hides a lot of things, in bulls and in cows.

I too, think we need to be careful trying to put a Limo butt on an Angus bull. Angus are among the best IF NOT THE BEST maternal breed out there. Keep that Angus cow and you can produce any type of feeder cattle you want by crossbreeding.

I think Angus are getting too big and to me, that is a worse problem than funnell butts.

On the subject of sale bulls. Try this one on. We used to buy our bulls private treaty from one breeder primarily. He was very good, very honest and knew his cattle. The son took over and started holding a sale. There was a good bull for sale privately as a yearling, but they had him priced fairly high, $5000-so he didn't sell. The next year the young man held his first sale and this bull was offered as a 2-year old. We were interested in him, but a BIG PLAYER bought the bull for $10,000. I found out later, that the young man who owns the cattle PAID these people to show up at his sale. Paid them to compete with his customers...that was all it took. We never bought another bull there.

BTW, the $10,000 bull's BW kept going up and up til no one wanted to use him and he is history. So guess it turned out fine in the end for us because we don't like heavy bw calves.

There's a lot of 'stuff' that goes on. As for us, we'll buy from the smaller breeders. I think a lot more attention is paid by them anyhow. So, if you are a smaller breeder, don't throw in the towel. A lot of us really appreciate you and what you are doing.
 
I agree FH-- especially with the angus getting too big-- trying to make them look like the continentals.....

One other thing I've found about buying bulls from the small breeder is that usually the dispositions are much better....Many are walked thru daily and some even hand fed- usually a lot quieter than the ones that only see someone when they are going to be branded, stuck, poked, probed or herded......
 
No offence Faster Horses and Oldtimer, but as for the getting too big thing, some are but not most. There are a lot of too small Angus cows out there still.

I have had many, many buyers tour the bull pens and they all drift to the biggest bull after they tell me how they want a small cowherd.

Purebred cows that raise herdbulls need to be bigger than the average commercial cow. Angus tend to get smaller on their own with no help.

I can drop 3 frame scores in 1 mating where to gain 1 frame score can take 2 generations.

Remember too the smaller the mature size of cattle, the sooner they put on outside fat cover. It is an issue of maturity. Mature cattle fatten. Bigger mature cattle get to slaughter weight before nature starts putting the mature fat cover on them.

As with all things a balance is needed. I believe the "leaders" in the Angus breed have been getting too small. BW so low the calves look like cats. The general population of Angus cows was just getting big enough to compete with the exotics when the trend smaller started.

Are there Angus cows that are too big? You bet, but they are not the rule. And in outfits like mine where the cows earn their keep, the big cows better pull their weight and wean more than they eat, rebreed on the same groceries that the other cows do, and not cause grief.

My favorite story to illustrate the big cow thing is a cow I had a few years back. She was incredibly thick, so wide she would stick in the chute. I would always show her to buyers just after they had rattled on about how they wanted 1200 pound cows. I would ask how they liked her. Everyone loved her and wanted a whole herd just like her. I would ask how much they though she weighed. Maybe 1400 or a little better was usually the answer. She was 1900 pounds, and never lost any of it summer or winter.

I sold that cow at 12 years of age for $6000. She produced embryos for England for the new owner. He didn't make a lot, but enough to be happy with the deal.
 

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