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FUNNEL BUTTS & GREED! - It' a CATCH 22!

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Jason - You have some very good talking points! You have really given this subject some consideration. I still consider 1600+# cows too large for current breeding operations for a variety of reasons, but you have made me analyze my reasoning considerably. There are many more factors to consider than what we have habitually done in the past -differences between individuals which cannot be placed in a "lead-soldier" type mold! Well done! I guess it proves that we need to continue to think and learn and investigate everything we do and keep an open mind to change. And I think that correct cross-breeding and Heterosis will fill in some of the unknown gaps in our thinking and decision-making.

DOC HARRIS
 
Hey FH, if that young fool "stacked the deck" so to speak at that there bull sale, it is a wonder :eek: :shock: that someone didn't take him out behind the barn and TAN his hide for such a cheap trick, or at least tar and feather him. :lol: :p :wink:
 
The year/rain sure does make a difference. Here's a photo of a 10 yr
old registered cow, Petunia. In the average(read:dry) year she will
weigh about1150 to 1250. The year this picture was taken we had a
nice summer; seemed like it rained an inch or so every 3 weeks.
She weighed 1385...see the little fat pads right under her tail?
She is a frame score 4. Her brisket was very full also. But also note that rear end is not all fat--it's muscle. She is one of our donor cows and we were lucky enough to get 4 live calves on the ground from her this fall--out of 5 implants. When it is time for her to go, she will be sold as
premium ground beef. If you can develop a customer list, you will
make some nice $ on cull cows.

2440petunia.jpg



I found a photo of her at her normal weight - Dec 2003 the day the
calf shown was born.

Pet_calf.jpg
 
OK Jeanne said:
The year/rain sure does make a difference. Here's a photo of a 10 yr
old registered cow, Petunia. In the average(read:dry) year she will
weigh about1150 to 1250. The year this picture was taken we had a
nice summer; seemed like it rained an inch or so every 3 weeks.
She weighed 1385...see the little fat pads right under her tail?
She is a frame score 4. Her brisket was very full also. But also note that rear end is not all fat--it's muscle. She is one of our donor cows and we were lucky enough to get 4 live calves on the ground from her this fall--out of 5 implants. When it is time for her to go, she will be sold as
premium ground beef. If you can develop a customer list, you will
make some nice $ on cull cows.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jeanne, that type of cow is exactly what I was talking about. She definately isn't a "big" cow yet she weighs close to 1400 pounds.

That cow bred to another Grey is going to give a different type of calf than if she was bred to a Saler. Each calf might do well and weigh up, but the weight at finish is going to be different, especially if someone was to grass the Saler cross as a yearling.

Northern Rancher, have you ever toured Fred N's cowherd? I sold him a bull a few years back for $7800 and he has some big cows, but he makes them work. 100-120 hd get 1 bale of hay 1 bale of greenfeed and 1 bale of straw a day.
 
Fred who-and a bale is a bale is a bale-if those cows are getting 1600 pound bales thats getting treated not half bad lol. Your making your cows work if your forking hay off a rack and none hits the ground lol.
 
I would guess the hay at 1400 the greenfeed between 14-1600 and the straw at 800-1000.

The hay would be grass alfalfa mix maybe 12% protien. The greenfeed maybe 10% and straw of course is 4-6%.

Slightly bigger cows have the advantage of being able to consume more low quality roughage and use it as a heat source. Smaller cows need higher quality feeds because they are limited in their intake. This goes back to the surface area of the cow. A big barreled cow can weigh a lot more than 1200 and have barely any more area of skin. Area of skin is related to heat loss, the number 1 issue we have to deal with in colder climes.

Feeding cows just to survive isn't always the most efficient either. A 1200 pound cow pretty much needs 36 pounds of feed per day. 3% of body weight. Feeding 36 pounds of dairy quality hay isn't going to pencil, but 10 pounds of really good hay and 10 pounds of medium quality and 16 pounds of straw or swamp hay works.
 
Jason said:
I would guess the hay at 1400 the greenfeed between 14-1600 and the straw at 800-1000.

The hay would be grass alfalfa mix maybe 12% protien. The greenfeed maybe 10% and straw of course is 4-6%.

Slightly bigger cows have the advantage of being able to consume more low quality roughage and use it as a heat source. Smaller cows need higher quality feeds because they are limited in their intake. This goes back to the surface area of the cow. A big barreled cow can weigh a lot more than 1200 and have barely any more area of skin. Area of skin is related to heat loss, the number 1 issue we have to deal with in colder climes.

Feeding cows just to survive isn't always the most efficient either. A 1200 pound cow pretty much needs 36 pounds of feed per day. 3% of body weight. Feeding 36 pounds of dairy quality hay isn't going to pencil, but 10 pounds of really good hay and 10 pounds of medium quality and 16 pounds of straw or swamp hay works.
Click to expand...

I always was told to use as a rule of thumb, 2% to maintain and 3% to gain. I do understand that colder weather makes a difference. But cattle in good hair condition are just comfortable at 18 deegrees F. Warmer and it is just as hard on them as colder than that also.

So 2% of a 1200 lbs cow would be 24 pounds.
 
Jason said:
Feeding cows just to survive isn't always the most efficient either. A 1200 pound cow pretty much needs 36 pounds of feed per day. 3% of body weight. Feeding 36 pounds of dairy quality hay isn't going to pencil, but 10 pounds of really good hay and 10 pounds of medium quality and 16 pounds of straw or swamp hay works.
Click to expand...

Don't tell my old girls that Canucks feed 36 lbs of hay a day, or they will all be heading north :wink: .....
 
Oldtimer said:
Jason said:
Feeding cows just to survive isn't always the most efficient either. A 1200 pound cow pretty much needs 36 pounds of feed per day. 3% of body weight. Feeding 36 pounds of dairy quality hay isn't going to pencil, but 10 pounds of really good hay and 10 pounds of medium quality and 16 pounds of straw or swamp hay works.
Click to expand...

Don't tell my old girls that Canucks feed 36 lbs of hay a day, or they will all be heading north :wink: .....
Click to expand...

I'm afraid mine would join yours OT! They think they are supposed to go out and rustle it for themselves! 'Course it helps if there is enough grass for them to rustle around in! :lol:
 
Consider that is when no grass is available to graze, and much of it is poor quality roughage.

I suppose cake isn't spoiling those Nebraska cows either :wink:

If you could measure what those cows graze on that dead grass you might find those cows eating closer to 45 pounds a day.
 
We balance our winter ration for a 1200 lb cow-and we sure don't feed 36 pounds a day of hay-I never lost alot of sleep over a May/June calving cow that looks a bit thin in midwinter-any cow worth her salt will slick up pretty fast on the spring grass.
 
If your cows lose a bit of weight it is not the end of the world, but the fact that they do on a 1200 pound cow ration shows thay are physiologically more than that.

All I'm saying is that a cow weight is just a label and too many producers are too hung up on it.

Good functional cows come in many shapes and sizes.

Feed needs to be as cheap as possible that allows those cows to do the job they are asked.

May calvers don't need the same feed as January or Febuary calvers, but they sure better have the grass come spring.

I always chuckle about the US fellas that never give a lick of grain to their cows but they cake tham. What is cake other than processed grains?

Minus 20 celcius here a foot of snow and my cows are still foraging stubble fields. If the weather was going to break right away I wouldn't worry, but I have my heifers out with the cows and they might need some feed soon. Most years I never break a bale until January calving starts.
 
The problem I see most often is that many commercial producers seriously underestimate the weight of their cows. Saw some cows come through a despersal a couple of years back that the owner had said should weigh 1250.... guess what, they averaged closer to 1550 and the auctioneer still had the nerve to brag a 500 lb calve weaning weight at 7 mths. The most important ranch tools are a scale and a calculator.
 
I have to agree, elwapo. A cow should be able to wean a calf at least half her body weight. Those cows we sold the other day couldn't do that. I got the checks yesterday, and mine averaged 1670 lbs., and my father-in-law's was 1735 lbs. Those big cows didn't even wean a third of their body weight in calf!
 
Wean half her weight at what calf age-at what management level-weight is just one part of the equation-I see Feb. born-crept fed calves -off 17-1800 pound cows that ate grain for 100 days before grass-they weigh 800 pounds in November-are they any better than a 500 pound calf that was born in may that lived on grass and momma's milk. I was an ROP weighman for years and weighed thousands of cows and calves. There aren't too many cows that wean half their weight at 205 days-they might at sale time but not at 205 days. I can get my chequebook out and bump any cows percentage of weight weaned by cramming the feed into her or the calf-will it make me money I kinda doubt it. I used to be a peformance testing junkie till I started listening to my older-much richer ranching friends. Alot of successful guys up here calved late-never pregtested-at branding they sorted off any cows not milking and sold them into a hot kill cow market. When you think of it-those dry cows that a guy sells in the fall-alot of them are bought and put on feed with the expectation of making somebody some money. One of my friends put it best 'Those old guys do everything wrong but they've never had to ask me for money' just some food for thought. Ohh by the way Jason I dug up the sale receipts from our last set of grass fat cows we sold-they averaged 1215# and our last set of fats we sold averaged just under 1300 so I can live with that.
 
good points nr. Another point to consider is the % error innumber of drys called by the vet in the fall. When i took the A.I. course in Lethbridge a number of years ago the instructor that bought the "dry" practice cows said that he commonly saw 20% error rates on cows marked dry. I preg test myself and put the drys in a pen to market in the new year and I always find one that I miss called. Of course a vet should be better that me as he would do 1000's per year.
 
I have run 205 day weights on our calves based on the individual weights when we preconditioned in September. I was happy that most of them exceeded 50% ratio, calf wt. to cow wt; and the cows that don't do a good job sure did stick out when I figured the 205 day wts.

One thing I wondered about, this weight per day of age was figured from date of birth to September 19th (or what ever day we preconditioned.) What should I figure in for shrink? The calves were sorted off the cows, ran through and weighed. I think I should deduct something for shrink. And then of course, I figured the days after Sept. 19 at the same rate of gain the calves had before Sept. 19. I'm not sure that is totally accurate because those calves grow more in the first 3 months of their life than than the rest of the time. But I think that might be a moot point because that is how 205-day weights are figured. When the actual weight and days are known then the 205 day wt. is figured~if I am wrong, please post the correct way.

Come to think of it, I bet the purebred breeders don't allow for shrink when they figure their 205 day weights. Another thing, I don't adust anything and the purebred folks adjust (add weight) for 2 year olds and 3 year olds and then again at 10 years of age~I think it is 10 years. I always check to see if a bull I am interested in is from a 2 or 3-year old cow. I think they add 75 lbs. to the weight of a calf off a 2-year old.

I'd appreciate some comments on this.
 
The 205 day weights are just another inexact science like EPDs, useful but they don't tell the whole story. :wink: :) They would have more meaning if a person weighed each of their calves when they were actually 205 days old. Otherwise, there is too much room for error.

These are just my humble thoughts, and another reason for me to justify not messing with the hassle of doing it. :wink:
 
Weaning Age of Dam Adjustment Chart
If Age-of-dam (at 205) is

Add Lbs. to Age Adjusted Weaning Weight

MALE FEMALE
thru 2 yrs. 243 days 79 69
2 yrs. 244 days thru 3 yrs. 91 days 64 53
3 yrs. 92 days thru 3 yrs. 273 days 42 39
3 yrs. 274 days thru 4 yrs. 91 days 31 27
4 yrs. 92 days thru 5 yrs. 91 days 18 16
5 yrs. 92 days thru 10 yrs. 91 days 0 0
10 yrs. 92 days and older 10 5
 
Enhanced 205-day weight adjustments
For genetic evaluation and contemporary group ratios, weaning weights are standardized to a calf age of 205 days and a mature dam equivalent. In the past, calves outside the range of 160 to 280 days of age were excluded from American Angus Association National Cattle Evaluation procedures. As a result, the calves weaned earlier than 160 days did not receive 205-day weights or contribute to genetic predictions.

Use of these records for genetic prediction requires a new approach to the traditional 205-day weight. The traditional 205-day age adjustment tended to overestimate the adjusted weights on younger calves and underestimate the values on older calves. To improve this process, breed-specific nonlinear equations were developed to adjust calf weights to a common age. This allows fair, age-equivalent comparisons among calves weaned between 120-280 days. This new adjustment formula is applied to weaning weights processed after June 8, 2003.

The enhanced 205-day adjustment procedure permits acceptance of data into the genetic evaluation that had been previously excluded by the calf age window. Lowering the minimum acceptable weaning age to 120 days provides breeders flexibility in weaning dates, along with allowing younger calves to remain in their respective contemporary groups for National Cattle Evaluation.
 

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