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Grassfarmer's Pharo post

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RobertMac

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The complete context of Grassfarmer's post about Kit Pharo.


Calving Season Question –



When Chip and I were in Riverton, WY, for a Herd Quitter meeting, we had a little time to kill between lunch and the start of the meeting. Pete Cameron, a local rancher and cowboy poet, volunteered to share some of his cowboy poems with the crowd. That was GREAT! Pete is very good at telling stories through his poems. If I can get Pete to travel with me as an opening act, we should be able to double the attendance at our Herd Quitter meetings.



Later in the day, Pete told me that he had spent his entire life putting up hay all summer and feeding hay all winter. He said he was tired of that and ready to change. The fact that Pete wants to be a Herd Quitter puts him way ahead of most of his neighbors – who do not think change is possible. I'm afraid some will be forced out of business in coming years as input costs continue to increase.



I received the following email from Pete:



Kit,



Just wanted to say how much I appreciated hearing you when you were in Riverton last week.



One question: you mentioned calving heifers with the main cow herd, beginning two weeks to a month later. Why a month later and not earlier as suggested by the so-called "experts"?



I'm calving now – and looking at my cow herd with a much more critical eye. I'm trying to figure out how to break the chains from my hay fork.



Pete Cameron (the poet) from Riverton, WY



My response:



Pete,



The question you ask is in reference to Don and John Palmer, who ranch near Boyero, CO. After attending a Dick Diven school in 1994, Don explained how he was going to move his calving date from March 15th to May 15th for the cows and June 1st for the heifers. Dick said, "If you are going to calve the heifers at a different time than the cows, calve them later."



Although I didn't say anything, I thought this Dick Diven guy must be an idiot. What he was suggesting was the exact opposite of what all the university experts were saying. However… I kept all of this in the back of my mind.



We were calving in April at the time – starting around April 10th. We calve our heifers and cows at the same time – both out on open range. Because we provided almost no feed inputs, the heifers that calved at the beginning of the calving season were thin when they calved. They stayed thin all summer – and many failed to breed back with their second calf.



For whatever reason, I had one first-calf heifer that year that did not calve until late May. Because she had been on green grass for 30 days, she was fat and gaining weight when she calved. She stayed fat all summer. She weaned one of our biggest calves – and she was one of the first to calve the next year.



Now… I understood what Dick was saying. He wasn't an idiot after all. All of the university experts were wrong and didn't know it.



It is nearly impossible for a heifer that is thin at calving to gain weight and condition – no matter how good the summer is. Thin heifers are extremely difficult to get bred back with their second calf. The only two options you have is to spend a lot of money on feed inputs to keep your heifers in good condition all winter – or to calve in sync with nature. Which option is the easiest? Which option is the most profitable? Why do most cow-calf producers work so hard to lose money?



The only time the university experts might be right about calving heifers three to four weeks ahead of the cows is when you are calving in the dead of winter (December – March). This, however, makes absolutely no sense to a profit-minded producer. Why? Because it requires that you work even harder to lose even more money.



Kit Pharo
 
Well one hundred percent supporting evidence would be much more convincing on a sample of 1000 than on a sample size of 1.
 
There's a 1,000 cow outfit up here that does the exact same-they have for years. Most guys just calve the heifers at the same time as the cows-at least in my neck of the woods anyway.
 
I calf heifers with my cows now, but I used to calf them later for the reasons mentioned above. They had a better breed back. I have now moved the cows later a month, and the heifers with them because it works best. In our country I think late March or first of April is a good time for both. Thats what works for me, and hang the X Perts!
 
Most everybody I know develops heifers in a drylot for the serious portion of the winter. Not saying it's right, just saying it's so. That being the case, why not go ahead and synchronize them and get them bred artificially ahead of the cows? This provides a chance to make sure those heifers all calve out okay and mother up nicely. I'm talking about a fairly controlled environment, not the big desert or those other landscapes that everybody claims are tougher than the surface of Mars.

If a person doesn't mind working a little during what otherwise would be a slow time of the year, then you extend your calving season and give those heifers a solid chance to make a cow. I breed to a responsible calving ease bull, but I don't care if I push the envelope a little. For me, I don't see a huge benefit to culling replacements to the extent that a whole lot of them fall out of the herd. A ranch has some serious money in developing replacements, so why not see if they can make it with that second calf? I'd rather someone else do the trials and research, I want as many heifers and threes bred as possible. I've got money tied up in them and a considerable amount of planning. If they'll have two calves then I'll cull them if they come up open later on.

Just my slantwise take on it. I'm not trying to see just how rough I can make things for these cows. Everything in balance and not trying to starve a profit out of them.

HP
 
Starving a profit out of a cow is a sorry way to try and make a living and it doesn't work either. Balance is the key word. You can make your cows work for you but they don't work very well when you work them to death. It doesn't take much management skill to starve a cow. To ride the line of just enough, not to much not to little that balance takes management skill.
Tougher than the surface of Mars :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I agree with the last two posts. If you don't like them as 2nd or third calvers then sell them to someone who does like them more than you do. There is a whole lot more value in a bred cow versus an open one. We calve heifers earlier to mitigate farmwork in April and May and believe me we don't do it any earlier than absolutely possible.
 
I had a bull customer tell me a couple of weeks ago that he no longer calves his heifers ahead of his cows for the same reason. His later calved heifers breed up better then his early calved ones. As long as the trend is to select for more growth and or more milk the harder it is going to be to keep young cows in the herd.
 
I'm with High Plains, Dylan and WB on this one.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but the thought of letting cattle get run down and thin at any time of year just doesn't sit well with me. There is no time of the year that a cow is not working. She's either carrying a calf, nursing a calf, or both at the same time. There's no time off. To save money, we take every measure we can without involving the nutritional status of our cows. There's lots of ways to do that. You just have to get creative.

Personally, if I had to walk out and see a bunch of skinny cows walking around, for whatever reason, including profit, I'd rather not even have them. If I can't raise them without having times of the year I'd be embarrassed to have anyone else see them, then I don't want to be in this business.

Just my opinion.
 
We don't want skinny cows either. If we go broke, it'll be from
feeding them, not from not feeding them. We can't stand to see a skinny
cow, horse, dog, anything. We are supposed to be their CARETAKERS.
In these times you can't afford to OVERFEED, but you can't afford
to UNDERFEED either. Thin cattle catch up with you, because it does
affect them some way. You just can't starve a profit out of a cow.

Now, to qualify this, I don't think anyone here was talking about
starving anything...
 
Seems like an extra management layer to me.

I have always calved cows and heifers at the same time in the same pasture. No special treatment for the heifers. They are expected to breed back with the cows or go to town if they can't.

Seems so simple to me.
 
A starved out heifer isn't going to breed back whether you breed her before or with the cows. I just talked to a A'I customer who has the conundrum-they are losing second calvers so are going to try breeding a bit later-their early calved heifers have 300 pound calves at side by breeding-this is a very well managed herd so we'll see if the change helps.
 
I'm not talking about starving anything, just about the basic requirement of having the body condition to do the job we're asking of these young animals. On top of being expected to breed early, carry and wean a calf, and rebreed, we must not forget that these young animals are still growing as well. That's a lot to ask of a young growing animal, so IMO, it's in our and the heifer's best interests to give her enough groceries to get it done.

Besides, at least in our climate, a certain amount of body fat is needed just to deal with the cold. Forty below in the wind for a couple of weeks in a row will drain an extra layer of fat away pretty quick.

Our replacement heifers are bred probably about a week or two before the cows, but that's as much a matter of them being able to leave the yard earlier to go on the stockpiled forage than anything else. We can turn them out with less spring storm weather worries than the pairs, so they go out on grass early. We leave a small pasture empty all summer just for this use. It carries them from April until time to go to the summer pasture. Then it is empty until the next spring. The second calvers run with the cows, and we make sure they go to the better quality pasture in summer. That's all the extra treatment they get.
 
Why is low cost cow/calf equated with "Starving a profit out of a cow"?

Low cost cow/calf is simply matching your cows peak nutritional needs with your lands peak forage production.
 
RobertMac said:
Low cost cow/calf is simply matching your cows peak nutritional needs with your lands peak forage production.
Click to expand...

How long after calving is the peak milk production, about 3 months? That is when she needs the most energy, it also happens to be about the time she is expected to breed or maintain her pregnancy.

In my neck of the woods we shouldn't go on pasture before June 15th. Calving then, fighting flies on newborns, and trying to breed on dry grass or snow in late September. Then put some weight on the calves in early/mid winter is a challenge.

It's cheaper to supplement a cows diet when she needs less energy than when she needs the most.
 
Rambo said:
RobertMac said:
Low cost cow/calf is simply matching your cows peak nutritional needs with your lands peak forage production.
Click to expand...

How long after calving is the peak milk production, about 3 months? That is when she needs the most energy, it also happens to be about the time she is expected to breed or maintain her pregnancy.

In my neck of the woods we shouldn't go on pasture before June 15th. Calving then, fighting flies on newborns, and trying to breed on dry grass or snow in late September. Then put some weight on the calves in early/mid winter is a challenge.

It's cheaper to supplement a cows diet when she needs less energy than when she needs the most.
Click to expand...

Rambo I have no idea where you ranch or how you do it, but if that's what works for you, so be it.

What we have in East-Central Alberta by June 15th is usually pretty good grass. We have green stuff growing in May most years, but the key is managing our pastures so that the cows have some stockpiled grass in April and May. We start calving around the 15th-20th of May, so they have good quality stockpiled stuff and new growth is coming by the time they calve. We rotate through pastures quicker once the calves get bigger, and by the time we turn bulls out around August 5th, they are on decent grass which hasn't been touched yet. We only graze pastures once per year.

To me it's all about grass/soil management that makes these systems work. Maybe I take your comments the wrong way, but you make it sound as though there is NO grass until June 15th, and that a late spring/summer calving program is bad because cows won't have any pasture left after 3 months at peak lactation. If there's no grass until June 15th, and none left by August, maybe there's too many cows for the land base. Is there a reason you don't go to pasture until June 15th? Leased land/BLM? If I'm misunderstanding you, let me know.
 
I'm in North Dakota. If we go on our native grass too early we injure the roots, etc. It will also kill out the early season grass. Every week before June 15th cuts ~10% of the yeild for the year. We don't have the luxury of tame pasture. Your are correct, grass needs to be managed corrrectly in order to be profitable. Livestock needs to managed so they are profitable and don't hurt the grass.
 

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