Grassfarmer's Pharo post

[Dylan Biggs]

Why is low cost cow/calf equated with "Starving a profit out of a cow"?

Low cost cow/calf is simply matching your cows peak nutritional needs with your lands peak forage production.

This is what comes to mind for me.

I have had the opportunity to see a lot of country and cattle and speak to a lot of management clubs over the last 15 years and unfortunately for some the message taken home from a number of the different management courses, unintended as it may be, is to cut feed costs as the primary expense saving strategy. It has made for more than a few situations that I can honestly describe as dam close starving a profit out of a cow. One thing for sure, the best way to find the bare minimum feed requirements, is to feed a bit less, than you know where the line is. It can be an expensive learning process.

Dick Diven has told me personally of a few wrecks his clients experienced when learning to implement his system. They reduced winter feeding with the help of their cows back fat and when spring came, with out the rain and green grass that was supposed to be there to replenish BCS cheaply and quickly before calving, and they didn't jump in quickly or adequately enough with supplementation, suffice it to say things didn't work out quite as well as planned.

 

[Kato]

I think the thing is that even if you are going for a low input, grass based approach, you shouldn't get so locked into the mindset that if the grass doesn't cooperate, you will still refuse to step in with some extra feed.

It doesn't always cooperate.

A few years ago, a local progressive thinker, who is incidentally often hired to speak on the topic, and advise producers, gave me a bit of a hard time about how our production setup didn't work with nature, and was not the most profitable way to go. It was early April, and we were still calving in the corral, and feeding our pairs with their big early calves. We didn't know what we were doing, and were out of touch with the new reality of raising cattle, or so we were told. Cows don't need bedding, his were very happy in the bush, and never gave him a problem. What did we know? We'd only had to deal with just about every bad weather event possible for the past thirty calving seasons, all of which came up at least a few times. It had been our experience that the worst weather wrecks in our area we ever had to deal with came at the tail end of spring, not in the middle of winter.

Well, a week later, along comes a spring snowstorm. It wasn't long, only lasted a little over a day or maybe two, but it came with the better part of a foot of snow.

Well, a week after that, didn't the local paper have a story about this storm, and part of the way they described how bad it was, was the fact that our local expert had lost a significant number of calves. Not sure how many, but it was between ten and twenty. At the end of the year, I wonder who had the better balance sheet? Our calves didn't even blink at that storm, and a week after it happened they were out on grass running around like crazy.

Just because we want to work with nature, that doesn't mean nature wants to work with us. We need to be flexible, and open minded enough to adjust for the unreliability of the weather, and the complications that can come up when it does let us down.

 

[Faster horses]

Good post, Kato. One of the best that has been posted, IMO.

Add to that, it's best to be prepared for the worst, by having
your cattle in good condition going into the winter/spring.

 

[Big Swede]

I am amazed at the number of producers who think that winter is over on April 1st. I've seen some terrible storms up till the 20th of April or even later. I know of a 1500 cow outfit near here that starts calving in late March with not much protection. Last year their calf losses were well into 3 figures. Why would they not wait another month to start calving at least. With that many cows you could easily get 100 calves in a day. In a blinding blizzard how could you save any of them? I read that North Dakota lost 100,000 calves and cows last winter and spring due to bad weather. I don't get it. Of course smaller numbers is what brings up prices for calves. On second thought I hope they keep doing what they are doing. :?

 

[Northern Rancher]

You can calve late and be prepared for bad weather-there are poor managers no matter when you calve. Our cows are a mile out fromthe yard from the yard but have a half section of bush to burrow into if it weathers up. We actually had a thunder and lightning rain storm tonight-nothing like the smell of the first rain of spring.

 

[Big Swede]

I hear you NR, one of my favorite sounds in the whole world is after the first good rain of the season and the toads and frogs come to life.

 

[rancherfred]

The hog guys are learning the hard way about the public's ignorance of production practices. Because our society is so separated from agriculture and add to that the stinking politicians willing to micromanage every aspect of our lives I fear it is only a matter of time until they are trying to dictate management terms for us. I don't want an idiot bureaucrat anywhere close to the farm gate, much less telling us how to manage. Having recognized the potential for trouble I think we have to be aware of the fact that winter calving is one area that we, as an industry, have a lot of vulnerability with regards to public relations. How can we as an industry defend this practice as it relates to animal welfare? Economics and weaning weights are real hard to counter emotionalism with.

 

[Silver]

The hog guys are learning the hard way about the public's ignorance of production practices. Because our society is so separated from agriculture and add to that the stinking politicians willing to micromanage every aspect of our lives I fear it is only a matter of time until they are trying to dictate management terms for us. I don't want an idiot bureaucrat anywhere close to the farm gate, much less telling us how to manage. Having recognized the potential for trouble I think we have to be aware of the fact that winter calving is one area that we, as an industry, have a lot of vulnerability with regards to public relations. How can we as an industry defend this practice as it relates to animal welfare? Economics and weaning weights are real hard to counter emotionalism with.

I'm not sure how winter calving relates to animal welfare at all. Please explain.

 

[rancherfred]

Simple, if you calve during the winter you know there is a very high probability that calves will be born during cold weather and probably in snow. That image of a new born calf shivering in a snow bank is not a good face of the industry.

 

[Silver]

Simple, if you calve during the winter you know there is a very high probability that calves will be born during cold weather and probably in snow. That image of a new born calf shivering in a snow bank is not a good face of the industry.

I think if the truth be known there are easier targets for those that look for them. Spring has it's own perils that can make the industry look bad. Generally when folks calve in winter they are more diligent than when the temps are warmer.

 

[flyingS]

Maybe they are Silver, I am not sure that I agree with you. I would still say Mortality rates are generally higher the earlier you calve. Good managers check their cattle no matter when they calve, they probably just don't have to do it as often(a calf generally won't chill in 40 degree plus weather). Some just enjoy being able to do it with a T-shirt on. Then you add frozen ears to the picture, HSUS and PETA would have a hay day. Not saying one is better than the other, but be realistic.

 

[Silver]

Maybe they are Silver, I am not sure that I agree with you. I would still say Mortality rates are generally higher the earlier you calve. Good managers check their cattle no matter when they calve, they probably just don't have to do it as often(a calf generally won't chill in 40 degree plus weather). Some just enjoy being able to do it with a T-shirt on. Then you add frozen ears to the picture, HSUS and PETA would have a hay day. Not saying one is better than the other, but be realistic.

I am being realistic. I'm saying if someone is out to put a bad face on ranching, there are places they could look and things they could see that would make their blood run cold and it wouldn't have to be associated with winter calving. I've seen horror stories and I'm sure you have too at all times of the year in certain operations and to single out winter calving as a potential black eye for the industry is foolish in the least.

 

[flyingS]

I agree with you, but try to think like a member of HSUS or PETA. They try to relate to animals. They are going to target the easiest and obvious. You can bet you will not find them out in a blizzard unless it is to document and target someone else's misfortune. Saying that people that calve late don't take as good of care of their cattle is like a rancher saying a farmer doesn't take as good of care of his cattle.. That is what you were implying... Welfare people don't go behind the scenes to get the whole story, they just bring out the extreme, no matter the situation.

 

[Silver]

Saying that people that calve late don't take as good of care of their cattle is like a rancher saying a farmer doesn't take as good of care of his cattle.. That is what you were implying... .

Nonsense. I said that when folks that calve in the winter they tend to be more diligent. Meaning that if you or I are calving in low temps we will be out there looking over things more often than we would in warmer temps. That's the way it is and it doesn't for one second imply that if we were calving later we wouldn't take as good of care of our cattle.

PETA and their ilk can and will find their poster children where ever they choose to find them and for us to single out one thing like earlier calving to worry about is silly. All we can do is keep our noses clean at whatever we do as an industry and try to keep our side of the story out there.

 

[RobertMac]

Why is low cost cow/calf equated with "Starving a profit out of a cow"?

Low cost cow/calf is simply matching your cows peak nutritional needs with your lands peak forage production.

This is what comes to mind for me.

I have had the opportunity to see a lot of country and cattle and speak to a lot of management clubs over the last 15 years and unfortunately for some the message taken home from a number of the different management courses, unintended as it may be, is to cut feed costs as the primary expense saving strategy. It has made for more than a few situations that I can honestly describe as dam close starving a profit out of a cow. One thing for sure, the best way to find the bare minimum feed requirements, is to feed a bit less, than you know where the line is. It can be an expensive learning process.

Dick Diven has told me personally of a few wrecks his clients experienced when learning to implement his system. They reduced winter feeding with the help of their cows back fat and when spring came, with out the rain and green grass that was supposed to be there to replenish BCS cheaply and quickly before calving, and they didn't jump in quickly or adequately enough with supplementation, suffice it to say things didn't work out quite as well as planned.

Dylan, this is my problem with this debate...conventional producers pointing to bad managers as being the norm for low cost producers. As I'm sure you know, the cost savings does not come from "starving dry cows through the winter", but comes from not having to feed a wet cow through half the winter. A good manager feeds his dry cows what they need to maintain condition until spring, but that is still less than having to keep a pair in condition for couple or several months until spring.

I've been playing with that "minimum feed line" for ten years..."to feed a bit less" is absolutely wrong. That's where the "starving a profit" idea comes from.

First, that line is different for every animal...that is the difference in functional efficiency for each animal. If we feed so that all the herd is in good condition, we hide the inefficient and over feed many at a high feed cost(lower profit margin). The trick is to feed close enough to the line to expose the inefficient so they can be culled. (This is not something the commercial producers should be doing. These inefficient genetics should be culled by the seedstock producers, but inefficient genetics are hidden by the seedstock producer that "feeds so his cattle can express their full genetic potential".) I try to keep the majority of my cows in good condition...a few will be too fat...a few will be a little boney...then cull on fertility.

One hazard of playing close to the line is that Nature will slap you down into the mud and kick you in the gut. But She can do that to even the best of managers!

 

[Big Swede]

I agree with you rancherfred, I've had that thought but never put it into words. I don't know where I read it but the majority of calves that die, like 75%, die because of hypothermia. I know that was the case in my situation. That includes snow storms, frigid temps and cold rain. If you take cold weather out of the picture you eliminate the major cause of death. Makes sense to me.

 

[per]

RM ... "First, that line is different for every animal...that is the difference in functional efficiency for each animal. If we feed so that all the herd is in good condition, we hide the inefficient and over feed many at a high feed cost(lower profit margin). The trick is to feed close enough to the line to expose the inefficient so they can be culled. (This is not something the commercial producers should be doing. These inefficient genetics should be culled by the seedstock producers, but inefficient genetics are hidden by the seedstock producer that "feeds so his cattle can express their full genetic potential".) I try to keep the majority of my cows in good condition...a few will be too fat...a few will be a little boney...then cull on fertility."

Pretty much our goal here RM. This year we are going to dock the tails of the few to thin cows. They obviously don't fit my program. Yes mother nature can spank you once in awhile.

 

[Soapweed]

I agree with you rancherfred, I've had that thought but never put it into words. I don't know where I read it but the majority of calves that die, like 75%, die because of hypothermia. I know that was the case in my situation. That includes snow storms, frigid temps and cold rain. If you take cold weather out of the picture you eliminate the major cause of death. Makes sense to me.

On the other hand, I'll bet cattle suffer every bit as much or even more down in the sunny hot humid south. The "perfect" temperature for cattle is 55 degrees. They are stressed when the temperature goes either side of that 55 degrees. If cattle have sufficient feed and shelter from the wind, they would probably prefer the cold temperatures to hot humid stifling conditions. I know I would. :wink:

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I agree with you rancherfred, I've had that thought but never put it into words. I don't know where I read it but the majority of calves that die, like 75%, die because of hypothermia. I know that was the case in my situation. That includes snow storms, frigid temps and cold rain. If you take cold weather out of the picture you eliminate the major cause of death. Makes sense to me.

On the other hand, I'll bet cattle suffer every bit as much or even more down in the sunny hot humid south. The "perfect" temperature for cattle is 55 degrees. They are stressed when the temperature goes either side of that 55 degrees. If cattle have sufficient feed and shelter from the wind, they would probably prefer the cold temperatures to hot humid stifling conditions. I know I would. :wink:

That's why you are to work with your environment. :wink:

 

[RobertMac]

I agree with you rancherfred, I've had that thought but never put it into words. I don't know where I read it but the majority of calves that die, like 75%, die because of hypothermia. I know that was the case in my situation. That includes snow storms, frigid temps and cold rain. If you take cold weather out of the picture you eliminate the major cause of death. Makes sense to me.

On the other hand, I'll bet cattle suffer every bit as much or even more down in the sunny hot humid south. The "perfect" temperature for cattle is 55 degrees. They are stressed when the temperature goes either side of that 55 degrees. If cattle have sufficient feed and shelter from the wind, they would probably prefer the cold temperatures to hot humid stifling conditions. I know I would. :wink:

Soapweed, it's just the opposite for me...I'd roll up into a little ball and just give up if I had to face your temps! :shock: :lol: :lol:

As for the cattle, that's why we have to adapt them to their environment...a little Brahman goes a long way!!! :wink: 8)