Gun Control I would approve of.

[Steve]

OT

A lot of this goes back to a misguided/corrupt/inept immigration system and policy that is extremely inept in sorting out the unwanteds, ineffective in keeping out/tracking down the illegals, and extremely inefficient and overly burdensome on those good folks trying to become citizens...

well said.

It is easy to look at a scum such as Cho and be outraged....and even want to change laws to prevent devastating crimes from ever happening again.....BUT,..

to do so undermines the legal law abiding immigrants contribution to this country...

try not to "blame others" for what this deranged killer did.

 

[Mrs.Greg]

Although you don't really deserve a reply I wanted to make the point...it is NOT because of supposedly 'victim statements you CLAIM andybob made" that has Americans wearing the Maple-leaf its because of predudice Americans like yourself that has your fellow Americans wearing the leaf,your statements are rude and derogitory to all immigrants to your country...including the Dr.s and teachers you trust your children too but that don't deserve the right to protect themselves in your "safe" country.


I've never in my life seen a BBC broadcast,like I said you only read what you feel serves your needs.

 

[aplusmnt]

Although you don't really deserve a reply I wanted to make the point...it is NOT because of supposedly 'victim statements you CLAIM andybob made" that has Americans wearing the Maple-leaf its because of predudice Americans like yourself that has your fellow Americans wearing the leaf,your statements are rude and derogitory to all immigrants to your country...including the Dr.s and teachers you trust your children too but that don't deserve the right to protect themselves in your "safe" country.


I've never in my life seen a BBC broadcast,like I said you only read what you feel serves your needs.

Hey I am opened minded, here. Please explain to me how I am suppose to feel as an American about andybobs statement?

You seem to be sidestepping that comment, That is why I put it in some 4 times in my last post.

You know that it was a derogatory and anti American Comment but you do not want to admit it because to do so would help validate my points. :wink: :roll:

Tell you what, why don't you list the things that you think an American should be able to say that only a citizen can do?

 

[aplusmnt]

The Libs have been trying to take away our right of Gun ownership for a long time. And there is only one reason that we have been able to hang on to them as good as we have been able to. And that is because of the Constitution of the United States and its Second Amendment that the founding fathers laid out for us in the Bill of Rights.

If it was not for the Constitution most likely none of us would own a gun in this day and time.

If you will notice the Preamble of the Constitution it tells us who these rights are for! It makes no mention of these right being afforded to those that get a Green Card to come here and work.

People of the world are not entitled to these rights unless they make themselves fit into the description of who the constitution was written for. And that would be by becoming a Citizen of the U.S.

"WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

I find it insulting that someone outside the United States would be arguing for rights they fill entitled to them. This should be an argument for the citizens of the U.S. to decide not a foreigner trying to tell us what they should be entitled to. Talk about arrogant!

I know I would never venture to tell someone from Canada who should be able to own guns in their country. That would just not be my place!

I find it funny that basically two people are arguing for this entitlement of gun ownership and neither of them is a U.S. Citizen! :roll:

Kind of like the President of Mexico telling us how we should handle the illegal immigration that is coming from his country.

I believe in letting the founding fathers of American that gave blood and sweat talk on my behalf as to who is entitled to the rights laid out in the Constitution of the U.S. [/i]

 

[kolanuraven]

A-, why turn this into a US vs Canadian ' thing'.....we're all AMERICANS!!!

 

[loomixguy]

God created all men.

Samuel Colt made them EQUAL.

Kennesaw, Georgia is a prime example. If you live in the city limits of Kennesaw, it is city ordinance that you MUST own a weapon. Guess where their crime rate is at?

 

[Mrs.Greg]

God created all men.

Samuel Colt made them EQUAL.

Kennesaw, Georgia is a prime example. If you live in the city limits of Kennesaw, it is city ordinance that you MUST own a weapon. Guess where their crime rate is at?

See this post Aplus....this is MY issue...the fact your willing to say that the immigrant teacher that died in the same class as the gunman...or the immigrant teacher that died barring the door so AMERICAN students wouldn't DIE...are not equal in your books. This is why this Canadian is trying although it does not seem to be getting through your head,that there are immigrants that are doing great things in your country for your country,yet you have no problam saying they are not equal to you.I also agree that just living in your country does not nessasarily give one the right to own a gun...but then there are alot of Americans that probably should never have a gun in thier hand.

As for andybobs statement thats for him to answer you,although he has explained how and why he's in US in lots of posts but you chose to linger in political,and chose not to read alot of other stuff.

My grandfather taught me..Nobody in this world walks above or below you,this I do believe,I never automatically dislike anyone because of my grampas words,you don't live by that at all. If thier not American they're suspect in your books :?

 

[schnurrbart]

I don't think the biggest problem is whether or not a green card alien can or cannot buy a gun in America but whether or not the state police and the FBI should have known that this guy had been ordered into mental health counsuling because of violent behavior or that whether the judge should have ordered him to be instutionalized. I agree that in most cases the gun laws on the record should be sufficient if they are enforced properly. However, it still comes down to when average joe blow is going to blow a gasket and go off the deep end. The only way to actually control guns would be to totally get rid of EVERY one of them and that isn't going to happen so you just have to do the best you can and hope for the best.

 

[Red Robin]

I'm also disappointed in your fellow country men that also have praised andybobs previous posts haven't stood up and told you what you wrote was WRONG.

I am going to assume Mrs Greg that you're calling me out here. I could be wrong. One reason I havn't posted on this thread is that you're all wrong. I felt like Aplus was wrong in his premise that gun control , at any level , would stop crime. Secondly I felt like Andybob was too sensitive in the beginning and certainly wrong in his post that America was to blame for his problems with his country. I hardly think that America was solely responsible for the political turmoil in his country. I'm not saying we were blameless but certainly not the sole cause but I don't know the whole situation. Lastly I felt like you were wrong by saying that as Americans when we travel abroad that we have to wear maple leaves (insinuating we are so hated as Americans in every other country that we'd be ashamed) or that we even mostly wear maple leaves. I can assure you , I wouldn't. I'd wear what I have on most likely and would never try to represent myself other than an American. If that causes me trouble somewhere, so be it, but I dont' think it would. I felt like they were all minor points in the heat of an argument so I stayed out of the discussion till now. I count you all friends and felt like the best place for me, since there was no one I agreed with, was on the sidelines.

 

[Mrs.Greg]

Your right RR,not all Americans Do wear the leaf when traveling abroad,alot do because the treatment is different. I don't think its called for either,and you should be proud of your country.

I wasn't specifically calling any one person out just don't really believe andybob deserves the treatment he got is all.Esp from someone who hasn't read any of andybobs posts.I'm proud of andybobs raise above adversity attitude...he obviously picked your country as his new home for positive reasons,that should make you Americans proud not attacking.

 

[aplusmnt]

I look at each thread and comment on its own merits. I have not read any thing about andybob on here, but I do remember some of his story from Cattletoday.

But no matter what adversary he has overcome or how unfair he has been treated in the past, I do not appreciate him blaming my country for it! And that is what it all boils down to!!

He can be a great person and did great things, but if he blames my country for his problems then I will call him out on it. Especially when he choose to move here after harbouring the feelings that he obviously has towards America!

You really seem to miss the point!

I never said one bad thing in my life to andybob until he drawed first blood accusing my country for his problems!!!!!!!!!!!

I am tired of the world blaming the U.S. for all its problems. But then expecting us to fix and pay for the ones they want us to!

The U.S. has did a thousand times more good world wide than any bad that might get blamed on us!!!!!!!!

We see many come here and live and still harbour anti American views. We see it with the Muslims that move here, we see it in the Mexican community that moves here and obviously we saw it in andybobs comment here on ranchers.net!!!!!

That being said I am done with this thread! I should have known better than to try to carry on a conversation about 2 things I am so very passionate about Gun Control and Immigration. I am just lucky we did not mention abortion who knows how bad it might have gotten!

My Bad! Sorry!

Ps. Never thought taking guns away from immigrants would stop one single crime. I do not believe gun control stops crime! Just did not think green card immigrants were entitled to the right to bear arms, especially when a 20 year old Iraq soldier born and raised here can not buy one. I believe more guns stop crime not less!!!!

 

[don]

you're right fminus; those who aren't americans should just know their place. does untermensch ring a bell?

 

[Bill]

I look at each thread and comment on its own merits. I have not read any thing about andybob on here, but I do remember some of his story from Cattletoday.

But no matter what adversary he has overcome or how unfair he has been treated in the past, I do not appreciate him blaming my country for it! And that is what it all boils down to!!

He can be a great person and did great things, but if he blames my country for his problems then I will call him out on it. Especially when he choose to move here after harbouring the feelings that he obviously has towards America!

You really seem to miss the point!

I never said one bad thing in my life to andybob until he drawed first blood accusing my country for his problems!!!!!!!!!!!

I am tired of the world blaming the U.S. for all its problems. But then expecting us to fix and pay for the ones they want us to!

The U.S. has did a thousand times more good world wide than any bad that might get blamed on us!!!!!!!!

We see many come here and live and still harbour anti American views. We see it with the Muslims that move here, we see it in the Mexican community that moves here and obviously we saw it in andybobs comment here on ranchers.net!!!!!

That being said I am done with this thread! I should have known better than to try to carry on a conversation about 2 things I am so very passionate about Gun Control and Immigration. I am just lucky we did not mention abortion who knows how bad it might have gotten!

My Bad! Sorry!

Ps. Never thought taking guns away from immigrants would stop one single crime. I do not believe gun control stops crime! Just did not think green card immigrants were entitled to the right to bear arms, especially when a 20 year old Iraq soldier born and raised here can not buy one. I believe more guns stop crime not less!!!!

One simple question aplusmnt.

What country did your ancestors emigrate from that entitles you to such a profoundly arrogant "we were here first attitude"?
:roll:
Yes there are some immigrants who shouldn't be on North American soil but be careful with that wide brush you are painting everyone that didn't arrive on the Mayflower with. Quite a bit of that paint it is dripping back on you.

Mrs. Greg you are right in that some Americans do wear a Maple Leaf or have one attached to their luggage, especially when travelling in Europe. I have seen it numerous times and also have been treated much differently myself once others look past my Wranglers, hat and boots and find out I am a Canadian. All of a sudden they CAN speak English!! I know it's not right because I have travelled most parts of the US and know many fine Americans but it is a fact that is brought about by attitudes such as some seen in this thread.

It's really comical reading some posts and seeing how some consider themselves such experts on world happenings when they don't even have a passport and in some cases haven't even been out of their own state! :roll:

 

[andybob]

A debate should be a discussion presenting two or more differing views, they should never stoop to insuts especially personal, and certainly not childish retorts, therefore I apologise to anyone I have offended, I sometimes do not express myself as well as I should.
I did not mean to insinuate that America was the chief cause of our betrayal, Britain was, having promised independence to the government in power twice, then renaged due to percieved inequalities, which we aknowledged but felt we had the right to correct these on our own, as other countries had done. When we were condmned by the security council, we had believed America would see the manipulation by the communist block and not vote against us. How a small. landlocked country of four and a half million people, the highest education rate in Africa (CJ Rhodes' legacy) and free healthcare to all native people, an oasis in 1960's voletile Africa, can be described as a threat to world peace when all our military effort had been in support of the British and their allies, the arms embargo was needed to weaken us for the comming communist onslaught. The Presidential affirmation was much lower keyed than the U.N. rant, but still condemned us, an abstention would have kept an open door; http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=28665
The system works here to the advantage of the U.S. citizen; initial screening for work permits, only property rights are recognised, but then an American or any other countries' citizen can buy homes or invetments in Europe, Southern African states, Australia, New Zealand etc without ever being resident, so this fits other western style democracies. After possibly 6 years of residence, if you have not committed a crime, you might be granted a green card after an exhaustive security check, a few more rights are allowed as a legal resident, again in keeping with those of other countries of western democracy leanings. Finally, the resident can apply for citizenship and if they qualify, have the same rights as other citizens, including the pinnicle of all rights; the right to vote!
The process is more exhaustive here, but I accepted that fact when I chose to accept the post here, I have no objection to any of this process, I just feel that as this is what was on offer, it should not be changed I have a limited time to buy my property and establish a trust for my dream of a centre for disabled adults here in the U.S.A. to erode the money I have to invest in this project by extending the time period in which I can purchase an appropriate property will severely handicap that ambition, and most probably destroy any chance of accomplishing it.
At no time in my life have I, or my people as a whole been anti- American
As well as the support in sending troops to both world wars, Korea and Malaya (British war) we offered SAS troops to America for Vietnam, the generals were interested as our troops were seasoned jungle fighters, the politicians turned us down as I have stated before, we considered ourselves friends and allies of the American people throughout, as did the American military toward us; a large number of vets joined us in 1975/76
and lifelong friendships have resulted. I trust this has cleared up what I was trying to communicate, and not firther clouded the issue due to the rambling post.

 

[aplusmnt]

I look at each thread and comment on its own merits. I have not read any thing about andybob on here, but I do remember some of his story from Cattletoday.

But no matter what adversary he has overcome or how unfair he has been treated in the past, I do not appreciate him blaming my country for it! And that is what it all boils down to!!

He can be a great person and did great things, but if he blames my country for his problems then I will call him out on it. Especially when he choose to move here after harbouring the feelings that he obviously has towards America!

You really seem to miss the point!

I never said one bad thing in my life to andybob until he drawed first blood accusing my country for his problems!!!!!!!!!!!

I am tired of the world blaming the U.S. for all its problems. But then expecting us to fix and pay for the ones they want us to!

The U.S. has did a thousand times more good world wide than any bad that might get blamed on us!!!!!!!!

We see many come here and live and still harbour anti American views. We see it with the Muslims that move here, we see it in the Mexican community that moves here and obviously we saw it in andybobs comment here on ranchers.net!!!!!

That being said I am done with this thread! I should have known better than to try to carry on a conversation about 2 things I am so very passionate about Gun Control and Immigration. I am just lucky we did not mention abortion who knows how bad it might have gotten!

My Bad! Sorry!

Ps. Never thought taking guns away from immigrants would stop one single crime. I do not believe gun control stops crime! Just did not think green card immigrants were entitled to the right to bear arms, especially when a 20 year old Iraq soldier born and raised here can not buy one. I believe more guns stop crime not less!!!!

One simple question aplusmnt.

What country did your ancestors emigrate from that entitles you to such a profoundly arrogant "we were here first attitude"?
:roll:
Yes there are some immigrants who shouldn't be on North American soil but be careful with that wide brush you are painting everyone that didn't arrive on the Mayflower with. Quite a bit of that paint it is dripping back on you.

Mrs. Greg you are right in that some Americans do wear a Maple Leaf or have one attached to their luggage, especially when travelling in Europe. I have seen it numerous times and also have been treated much differently myself once others look past my Wranglers, hat and boots and find out I am a Canadian. All of a sudden they CAN speak English!! I know it's not right because I have travelled most parts of the US and know many fine Americans but it is a fact that is brought about by attitudes such as some seen in this thread.

It's really comical reading some posts and seeing how some consider themselves such experts on world happenings when they don't even have a passport and in some cases haven't even been out of their own state! :roll:

I know I said I was done, but since you asked me a direct question I will answer.

Farthest I am for sure about is my ancestry going back to fighting in the Revolutionary war on my mothers side and I know it is a about the same time frame on my dads, but have no proof that my fathers side had a soldier in the Revolutionary war.

But that does not matter, I live in 2007 and am a citizen of the United States. In doing so I have a right and responsibility to take the issue of immigration serious. I am being crucified because I state a specific regulations that I feel would be fair and just for immigrants in my country.

Just because people migrated here freely some 100-200 years ago does not mean they still have that freedom. The melting pot is full, and we live in a time of restrictions. The United States is not some community property of the world. We fought for our freedom and right to be our own country during the Revolutionary war. And in doing so we won the right to regulate and pass laws regarding our immigration policy. We are not world wide community property, as I feel many in the world think we are.

We have a right to restrict citizenship and govern the laws of immigrants.

I wonder how many of you that label me as some sort of bigot because I believe in restricting certain constitutional rights held out for our citizens upon green card residents, approve of all the laws regulating the immigration issues in your own country?

How do you feel about the State Welfare Assistance problems you face with immigrants into Canada? Do you feel they should receive the same welfare assistance as Canadians that are citizens? My opinions on gun purchasing may be not much different than your outrage at the Welfare that the growing number of immigrant are receiving in your own Country.


If you think about the entitlement you seem to preaching on United States it is kind of leaning towards the argument of one World Power. You feel you should be able to have the same rights and freedom's that our citizens enjoy.

I have no problem with legal immigration and citizenship earned. The best man at my wedding nickname was Taco, and many of his family did not speak English, but they came here legally. I have no problem with that, even though I have major problems with the illegal immigrants.

I am not a anti immigration I just believe certain rights should be held out for citizenship.

1. Voting
2. being elected into public office.
4. Gun Purchasing.

As upset as some of you are getting on those opinions you must have some pretty liberal social views in your own Country? Or is it just my country that should be the World Community?

 

[Texan]

Interesting exchanges here. I'm sure glad that we have hard-working, patriotic Americans like aplus in this country. People who are passionate about issues and get involved. People who still love this country and are willing to take up for it at the drop of a hat - or at the perceived suggestion of an insult.

It's also quite an honor to have andybob want to be one of us. To overcome everything he has and to choose our country as his home. Many people who are born in this country just take it for granted. It's really a compliment to have someone choose the US as their home. To choose it over every country in the world.

Many of us here in the US are very myopic and self-centered. I know that I personally don't give a f what the rest of the world thinks about us. Even though, intellectually, I realize that I should. It sure is nice to have friends like Mrs.Greg, Bill and Don that will point out the things that we can't see - or that we don't want to see.

Sometimes people who see eye-to-eye on MOST issues just need to agree to disagree...

 

[Bill]

Interesting exchanges here. I'm sure glad that we have hard-working, patriotic Americans like aplus in this country. People who are passionate about issues and get involved. People who still love this country and are willing to take up for it at the drop of a hat - or at the perceived suggestion of an insult.

It's also quite an honor to have andybob want to be one of us. To overcome everything he has and to choose our country as his home. Many people who are born in this country just take it for granted. It's really a compliment to have someone choose the US as their home. To choose it over every country in the world.

Many of us here in the US are very myopic and self-centered. I know that I personally don't give a f what the rest of the world thinks about us. Even though, intellectually, I realize that I should. It sure is nice to have friends like Mrs.Greg, Bill and Don that will point out the things that we can't see - or that we don't want to see.

Sometimes people who see eye-to-eye on MOST issues just need to agree to disagree...

Sure glad that is the way you took it Tex as that is the way it was intended. My dad taught me that life was to short not to "say what you mean and to mean what you say". I guess that would make me a p-poor politician and I know for sure it has been misinterpreted a few times in the Bull Session.

I have lost count of the times I have been in the the US and other than Canada there is no place I would rather live than in the US of EH!

;-)

 

[backhoeboogie]

Sure glad that is the way you took it Tex as that is the way it was intended. ;-)

If it makes any difference, I thought the whole exchange (all of this thread) was downright enlightening. Been coming back and following the exchange with interest. It is always best to leave emotions out of it (unless there is actual legislation changes). Otherwise we are just sharing opinions and views. There is nothing wrong with being as informed as possible.

 

[Mrs.Greg]

Interesting exchanges here. I'm sure glad that we have hard-working, patriotic Americans like aplus in this country. People who are passionate about issues and get involved. People who still love this country and are willing to take up for it at the drop of a hat - or at the perceived suggestion of an insult.

It's also quite an honor to have andybob want to be one of us. To overcome everything he has and to choose our country as his home. Many people who are born in this country just take it for granted. It's really a compliment to have someone choose the US as their home. To choose it over every country in the world.

Many of us here in the US are very myopic and self-centered. I know that I personally don't give a f what the rest of the world thinks about us. Even though, intellectually, I realize that I should. It sure is nice to have friends like Mrs.Greg, Bill and Don that will point out the things that we can't see - or that we don't want to see.

Sometimes people who see eye-to-eye on MOST issues just need to agree to disagree...

Texan...this morning an American I call a friend,brought almost the same point to me through a PM,as you just wrote...I respect his and your opinions as I respect Aplus's right to defend the country you guys call home.I agree with alot of what was written here but disagree on some points....your right,its time to agree to disagree. If something is learned from any exchange the effort wasn't futile,I think something was learned on my part anyway,thnks all

 

[aplusmnt]

I am really sorry this thread went the road it did, I actually thought it might be a thought provoking thread as to rather a green card resident should have gun purchasing rights. I had always thought they can not buy, because I thought you had to check a spot on the gun purchase application that you were a U.S. Citizen. I now suspect it might say you are a legal resident.

I should have asked andybob to explain his comment before blowing up. I should have used questions to get to my point instead of inflammatory remarks.

I might come across as myopic or self centered in regards my country, maybe because we are put so strongly under the microscope when we go against world opinion, but rarely credited for the sacrafice we make on such a grand world scale. Maybe because I get angered at some of the same traitors opinions that my own political leaders spew. Or maybe just because I am just a hot head at times.

I have bunches of respect for many countries, England, Australia and Canada and a few other misc ones. I also sympathize with them because I know they also face a hard fight from the evils of Liberalism as we here in the U.S. do.

I should have known better than to advocate any kind of gun control, no good ever comes from Gun Control or obviously supporting it on the Internet.

Sorry if my temper overshadowed a thread that might have been an interesting conversation.

No hard feelings on my end!