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handling & feeding cake

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LCP said:
loomixguy said:
Giving them a pound of cake every THREE days?

WOW!
Click to expand...


I probably wasn't real clear...should have been 3 lb every 3 days.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to go into the whole debate of feeding cake like that is not the way to go, IMHO. That's a discussion for a different day. I would highly suggest NOT attempting to manipulate the cubes as the sole source of mineral, especially when it would only be available a couple of times a week.

I would rather see you using a weatherized custom mineral blend from a reputable company (NOT a co-op) available 24/7. Each cow has specific needs and will eat what she needs. If the mineral is a 4 ounce/head/day product, some may only require 2oz, where others may need 6oz/day to fulfill their needs. It's a game of averages. When you feed cubes, the boss cows may get twice or more than the others, whereas the timid cows may be lucky to get a mouthful, if that. With dry mineral available 24/7, there is scant competition for the product, and each cow will get what she requires to meet her needs...provided you keep it out in front of them at all times. PPM can be the biggest problem an operation has, and lots of times is the easiest fix.

A good weatherized custom mineral won't be cheap, but neither are dead calves. I also agree with FH that mineral added to cubes may lose significant efficacy due to the heat used in the pelleting process.

Whatever route you ultimately go with, good luck!
 
loomixguy said:
LCP said:
loomixguy said:
Giving them a pound of cake every THREE days?

WOW!
Click to expand...


I probably wasn't real clear...should have been 3 lb every 3 days.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to go into the whole debate of feeding cake like that is not the way to go, IMHO. That's a discussion for a different day. I would highly suggest NOT attempting to manipulate the cubes as the sole source of mineral, especially when it would only be available a couple of times a week.

I would rather see you using a weatherized custom mineral blend from a reputable company (NOT a co-op) available 24/7. Each cow has specific needs and will eat what she needs. If the mineral is a 4 ounce/head/day product, some may only require 2oz, where others may need 6oz/day to fulfill their needs. It's a game of averages. When you feed cubes, the boss cows may get twice or more than the others, whereas the timid cows may be lucky to get a mouthful, if that. With dry mineral available 24/7, there is scant competition for the product, and each cow will get what she requires to meet her needs...provided you keep it out in front of them at all times. PPM can be the biggest problem an operation has, and lots of times is the easiest fix.

A good weatherized custom mineral won't be cheap, but neither are dead calves. I also agree with FH that mineral added to cubes may lose significant efficacy due to the heat used in the pelleting process.

Whatever route you ultimately go with, good luck!
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it better. Our guys that feed cake, don't add mineral to it and they keep free-choice mineral out at all times.
Some weatherized mineral has a coating that makes it not as available to the cow. After all,
if it withstands moisture, how easily is it going to be broken down internally by a cow? Our mineral isn't weatherized, per sei;
it's the uniform particle size that enables it to withstand weather. Just a FWIW.

Remember, your original goal was to provide the proper nutrition to the cow so you can avoid pitfalls down the road--like
sick calves.

Like loomixguy, whatever route you go, good luck!
 
After digesting my situation some more, and from what I've learned here, cake probably isn't my best option. I found some alfalfa hay that is reasonably priced ($100/ton laid in, 19-20% protein), and plan to use it as a protein supplement for these cows on cornstalks. I've already got the bale bed so feeding it should be simple enough. As far as the mineral goes, I'm going with a free-choice custom blend (without selenium, formulated for cornstalks) and probably having some biuret added in for a little bit of protein there.
 
We use a good tub and loose mineral when on stalks. Feeding alfalfa kind of makes them lazy for us. They would rather sit around and wait for the pickup or run to the edge of the field every time a diesel pickup drives by slower. I had a good quote on ddg but not really sure how to feed it without wasting to much. I have read feeding under Hotwire works pretty good but havnt tried it. Sure makes them easy to catch giving something out of a cake feeder. I made an aluminum one for my pickup and was just feeding a little corn out of it cause we have ample corn for sure. We caught 100 head in a portable corral with just me in the pickup leading and dad following the stragglers and shutting the gate on his turtle speed kubota. ;)
 
I try to unroll on turfy grass in a pivot corner so cows have a better chance of cleaning it up.

If you use a protein value of 6% for the stalks, you need 5# per day of 20% protein, just to get to 8%, if they only eat 30# of stalks. For dry cows, in Indian summer, that you're not trying to gain flesh on, that would work, but none of that is reality at my house. 5% is a better number for protein levels in stalks, a 1200# cow is going to eat 40# if she has the protein to drive it. Most days are getting colder or worse, wet. And I'm always chasing flesh on cows. So what if we feed 10# of 20% alfalfa? that works if you're not trying to gain a lot of weight. In this scenario, the cow eats the same 40#, but 10# is hay @ 20%, & 30# is stalks @5% - now your net protein in the ration is 8.75%. Your hay is costing a nickel, so 10# is $.50 per day. Give them a dime's worth of mineral free choice, and they'll prosper on cornstalks. If they're thin and you're really chasing flesh in bad weather, you'll want to get up around 10% ration. On your ledger, that $.50 per day is se of the best money you'll spend. Btw, with good protein, you'll drive cows to consume stalks, and utilize more of the dry matter. When you first turn out, watch what maximum load looks like on their flank. When they aren't loading like that, give more hay, because your stalks are quitting you. They need more protein to consume rougher feed. What if you go all crazy and feed 15# of hay? $.75/day - bfd, money well spent. If you'll only turn out on some stalks and then turn out on fresh stalks, there is 15 or 20 thousand pounds of dm out there. If you feed half and waste half, that's a lot of feed per acre.
 
LCP said:
After digesting my situation some more, and from what I've learned here, cake probably isn't my best option. I found some alfalfa hay that is reasonably priced ($100/ton laid in, 19-20% protein), and plan to use it as a protein supplement for these cows on cornstalks. I've already got the bale bed so feeding it should be simple enough. As far as the mineral goes, I'm going with a free-choice custom blend (without selenium, formulated for cornstalks) and probably having some biuret added in for a little bit of protein there.
Click to expand...

I think you made a good choice. I like it. (I don't know anything about biuret. Is it possible that could cause them to over consume your mineral?)
 
Biuret is an exclusive product of ADM. Moormans has been putting biuret in mineral for generations. It can really pump up the protein level. I've never heard of overconsumption being a problem.
 
Didn't moorman's used to call the product with biuret "roughage buster'?
I've been using bovatec in my winter mineral.

If you look at marc tables, you'll probably need about 2# of protein. I have fed 30# of really nice alfalfa hay every third day on rank rough wolfy rough fescue and shined cows up real nice.

Doing it that way does kinda spike the protein level. It does save trips and expense, smaller weaker cows get a fairer shake and they ain't standing @ the gate waiting for you.

By using a pearson's square, you can kinda plug in different feeds you got available and costs and figure out how to meet your requirements at the lowest cost.

http://www.homesteadapps.com/app/free/feedcalc/pearsonsquare.php

We don't try to starve a profit outa anything, but think that meeting all requirements @ lowest cost is only good sense. Some cows are fed to make the owner feel better.

It does take protein to digest energy, but protein is almost always more expensive than energy and excess protein is either converted to energy or goes out the back.
 
I see that pearson's sq link I gave ain't that good.

You should be able to plug in various components at various prices--then tinker till you meet all requirements and can play with amounts to get best price.

extension agents used to give you a disk that'd do this.
 
I've got plenty of cornstalks to graze and I will be strip-grazing it to keep a more even plane of nutrition for the cows. I still go by the old 1 acre/cow/month, and with some of these fields averaging 200 bpa, running out of cornstalks is the least of my worries. I always run out of winter before I run out of stalks.

The biuret seemed to work OK in a fall mineral we used last year. From what I understand it is a slower-releasing form of NPN than urea, making it safer and a little more effective. And more expensive I guess.

We weaned in late Sept so they have had plenty of time to get fat with the nice fall we've had. Adding weight isn't really needed.

I figured I would start off at 3 lb of alfalfa/day, delivered 2x per week and see what the manure looks like. I will probably move fence once a week.
 
Might want to eval npn on a roughage diet. Plenty of proof npn works on concentrate. I've never seen a trial proving npn is beneficial on a roughage diet.
 
I believe urea was started in feedlots to cheapen protein and it worked well because of the energy also being fed. However, for range cows, it robs them of energy to digest it. Here energy is key. It is easy to meet their protein needs (range cows) but they are usually short on energy.

That is where I had heard of biuret. Thanks for the reminder.
I had one rancher tell me he tried Roughage Buster and the cows just stood there and shivered. I think it used to cost $2400/ton; don't know what it is now. If I remember right, they were to eat a 1/4 of a pound per head per day. That isn't very much. Always wondered how that could work. You never hear of it around here any more.
 
I used a cornstalk mineral from my nutritionist several years back with urea in it. The cows did pretty well. I didn't supply any other protein. I can't recall what kind of winter it was or how long they were on stalks.

I did some research on NPN in range cow diets. Here's what I found:

http://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_circulars/cr583.pdf

A conservative target level for including NPN in
protein supplements for gestating cows or stockers
grazing low-quality forage is 25 percent of the
ruminally degradable protein in the supplement
when fed daily

http://www.qlf.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Cow-Calf-Technical-Bulletin-8005-Feeding-Urea-On-Purpose.pdf
It's from a feed company, so take it with a grain of salt (or a drop of molasses?) :D

Seems like there is a level in which it provides some benefit. I remember NPN being talked about at the Ranching for Profit school as a cost-effective means of supplementing protein on low quality forage. Not that they are the be-all-end-all of knowledge but generally I think they get it right.
 
Urea and biuret are supposed to be 246% protein, so feeding 1/4 lb (4oz) a day would be the same as 3 lb of 20% alfalfa hay (0.6 lb CP). Here's my math then:

30 lb residue consumed x 6% CP = 1.8 lb CP
2 oz biuret x 246% CP = 0.3 lb CP
total = 2.1 lb or 7% CP in the diet

A cow in mid-gestation needs 7.1% to maintain.

I figured on rolling out 5 lb of 20% alfalfa a couple times a week, especially for the young cows. Last year I got a little behind on them and I think it cost me on calf performance due to lower milk quality/quantity. The old cows I'm not real concerned about as they are in excellent flesh.
 
littlejoe said:
" It is easy to meet their protein needs (range cows) but they are usually short on energy."

Is this what you meant to say?
Click to expand...

I think since the rumen bugs use protein to multiply a healthy population of them digesting the rough mature grass produces the energy.

Maybe somebody of knowledge will chime in, :D
 
LCP said:
Urea and biuret are supposed to be 246% protein, so feeding 1/4 lb (4oz) a day would be the same as 3 lb of 20% alfalfa hay (0.6 lb CP). Here's my math then:

30 lb residue consumed x 6% CP = 1.8 lb CP
2 oz biuret x 246% CP = 0.3 lb CP
total = 2.1 lb or 7% CP in the diet

A cow in mid-gestation needs 7.1% to maintain.

I figured on rolling out 5 lb of 20% alfalfa a couple times a week, especially for the young cows. Last year I got a little behind on them and I think it cost me on calf performance due to lower milk quality/quantity. The old cows I'm not real concerned about as they are in excellent flesh.
Click to expand...

I keep my replacement heifers and first bred heifers separate from the older cows and they get a slightly better quality hay and a small amount of grain daily. I do not want them fat but I don't want the older animals shoving them out. The older herd is on free choice round bales and free choice mineral - - - on bad days I will give them a few square bales in the loafing shed - - - I really think it does more for me than the cows - - - My kids say I just keep them around to have something that needs me.
 

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