Is there anyone left who can reason???

[Anonymous]

Your first story made no sense from the beginning Tim. Why would anyone test bred cows for marketing purposes? Oldtimer might like the option of testing them for slaughter after they had a dozen or so calves for him ---- but he would likely want to Shoot and Shovel them like a true Rcalfer by then.

Ukrainian Circus Hey ----- 8)

Actually rkaiser-- I wouldn't buy a Canadian cow/heifer now-or in the future - if it wasn't tested with a recognized/certified live test...I wouldn't want to be the one that could bring an animal down that 4-5-6 years down the line could test positive for BSE- and put an economic hit on the US cattle industry like the Washington cow did....

Isn't nothing that special in Canada to put that increased risk on the US cattle industry-- even those good looking wooly beasties of yours :wink: :lol:

 

[TimH]

Your first story made no sense from the beginning Tim. Why would anyone test bred cows for marketing purposes? Oldtimer might like the option of testing them for slaughter after they had a dozen or so calves for him ---- but he would likely want to Shoot and Shovel them like a true Rcalfer by then.

Ukrainian Circus Hey ----- 8)

Obviously for export to the US,Randy. You're a little slow on the uptake aren't you. Even Oldtimer figured that one out. :roll: :wink:

"Anonymous poster" hey Kaiser???? Ya, I caught that in another post of yours.I've put my full name and address on this forum on at least one occasion,maybe more.I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you either didn't see it or you just forgot.

As for Sandhusker's limp-wristed little attempt........it might make some sense if SRM removal wasn't the "law" at this point in time.It is, so who's version is more realistic??

 

[rkaiser]

Obviously for export to the US,Randy. You're a little slow on the uptake aren't you. Even Oldtimer figured that one out.

Okeedokee Tim Hooooo-ever-you-are.

Oldtimer has never figured much out about BSE yet, except that it works for Rcalf's protectionist agenda.

Hope you feel better in the morning Tim.
Randy Kaiser signing off.

 

[Sandhusker]

"Protectionist agenda"? You must be referring to our agenda of protecting our herd from diseases. It's a hell of a fight, but we're doing what we can.

 

[Bill]

Your first story made no sense from the beginning Tim. Why would anyone test bred cows for marketing purposes? Oldtimer might like the option of testing them for slaughter after they had a dozen or so calves for him ---- but he would likely want to Shoot and Shovel them like a true Rcalfer by then.

Ukrainian Circus Hey ----- 8)

Actually rkaiser-- I wouldn't buy a Canadian cow/heifer now-or in the future - if it wasn't tested with a recognized/certified live test...I wouldn't want to be the one that could bring an animal down that 4-5-6 years down the line could test positive for BSE- and put an economic hit on the US cattle industry like the Washington cow did....

Isn't nothing that special in Canada to put that increased risk on the US cattle industry-- even those good looking wooly beasties of yours :wink: :lol:

LOL............ and here is the neat thing!
Throughout the fall sale run in Canada, numerous Americans have bought cattle from Canadian seed-stock producers and guess what? They are going south; despite Oldtimer and his R-Klan scare tactics commerce betweeen Canada and the US continues. :roll:

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

What's wrong Ron and disciples???? Didn't like my little scenario? Where's the comments? Where's the insults and rhetoric??

No-one commented because they were idiotic and childish, not to mention completely absurd.

At this point in time, Tim, no-one is paying attention to your drivel. You really don't know much, if anything, about Ron's test, nor apparently do you know much about the Asian marketplace as it currently stands. So when you mention rhetoric, thats about all your posts are, and really not worth reading.

Kinda like this thread. Of course it has to degenerate into the "you've got more BSE than we do" R-Calf drivel. I see that hasn't changed. Here's a thought for you R-Calfers: NO-ONE CARES WHO HAS MORE BSE! You've got it, now how about you do something about your own lousy surveilance and not worry about ours? People who live in glass houses should not toss frozen cowshit around.

Good god, for all those Canadians opposed to Ron, take a step back and think about it for a moment. Who cares why the man is in it? I certainly don't. But what we have here is a possibility that we can now test live animals, confirm ONLY the positives (oops, there goes your idiot scenario Timmy), and finally enter into the all the markets that we have been barred from entering. Again, who cares why he's in it? I certainly don't. Let him spend the profits on cheap porn and booze for all I care. All I want to see is that live BSE test hit market so we can FINALLY leave this BSE bullshit behind us. As cattle producers we have WAY too much working against us. Its time we started eliminating some of it.

Rod

 

[katrina]

What's wrong Ron and disciples???? Didn't like my little scenario? Where's the comments? Where's the insults and rhetoric??

No-one commented because they were idiotic and childish, not to mention completely absurd.

At this point in time, Tim, no-one is paying attention to your drivel. You really don't know much, if anything, about Ron's test, nor apparently do you know much about the Asian marketplace as it currently stands. So when you mention rhetoric, thats about all your posts are, and really not worth reading.

Kinda like this thread. Of course it has to degenerate into the "you've got more BSE than we do" R-Calf drivel. I see that hasn't changed. Here's a thought for you R-Calfers: NO-ONE CARES WHO HAS MORE BSE! You've got it, now how about you do something about your own lousy surveilance and not worry about ours? People who live in glass houses should not toss frozen cowshit around.

Good god, for all those Canadians opposed to Ron, take a step back and think about it for a moment. Who cares why the man is in it? I certainly don't. But what we have here is a possibility that we can now test live animals, confirm ONLY the positives (oops, there goes your idiot scenario Timmy), and finally enter into the all the markets that we have been barred from entering. Again, who cares why he's in it? I certainly don't. Let him spend the profits on cheap porn and booze for all I care. All I want to see is that live BSE test hit market so we can FINALLY leave this BSE BS behind us. As cattle producers we have WAY too much working against us. Its time we started eliminating some of it.

Rod

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whooooooo Hooooooooo!!!!!!!! Yessssss!!!!!!!!! :clap: :agree: :nod:

 

[bse-tester]

Well put Rod and hey, cheap porn and booze??? Not this old boy. Research and science my friend, research and science.

Happy New Year to one and all - even you Timmyboy, even you.

Ron.

 

[don]

i don't care whether bse-tester or anybody else has a three minute test for live animals that is totally reliable - where does it get us? we have reliable tests now, not for live animals but it doesn't matter because they can't be used to the advantage of producers. the problem isn't in the lab it's in washington and ottawa. the only way this logjam will be broken is by consumer pressure. too many cattlemen don't want universal testing and the packers have the north american herd(s) captive as it is. there's the problem. if there were fifty reliable tests out there right now we would still be in the same situation because we don't control our own industry.

 

[Anonymous]

i don't care whether bse-tester or anybody else has a three minute test for live animals that is totally reliable - where does it get us? we have reliable tests now, not for live animals but it doesn't matter because they can't be used to the advantage of producers. the problem isn't in the lab it's in washington and ottawa. the only way this logjam will be broken is by consumer pressure. too many cattlemen don't want universal testing and the packers have the north american herd(s) captive as it is. there's the problem. if there were fifty reliable tests out there right now we would still be in the same situation because we don't control our own industry.

Thats where we need to back the rkaisers and R-CALF's and USCA's and rid both countries of the dominant control the multinational Packers have over our cattle industry and our politicians/bureaucrats....

Not sure how it is in Canada don- but in the US its a tumor that prevades thru all of government right now--the President-his appointees- the Congress--most who put the elitists pocket books above honesty and morality-- and until we cut it completely out, things will stay the same....

 

[katrina]

Well put Rod and hey, cheap porn and booze??? Not this old boy. Research and science my friend, research and science.

Happy New Year to one and all - even you Timmyboy, even you.

Ron.

You mean to tell me that when your test is in use around the world. I can't send you a case of fine Nebraska or South Dakota wine??? :wink:

 

[Bill]

i don't care whether bse-tester or anybody else has a three minute test for live animals that is totally reliable - where does it get us? we have reliable tests now, not for live animals but it doesn't matter because they can't be used to the advantage of producers. the problem isn't in the lab it's in washington and ottawa. the only way this logjam will be broken is by consumer pressure. too many cattlemen don't want universal testing and the packers have the north american herd(s) captive as it is. there's the problem. if there were fifty reliable tests out there right now we would still be in the same situation because we don't control our own industry.

Thats where we need to back the rkaisers and R-CALF's and USCA's and rid both countries of the dominant control the multinational Packers have over our cattle industry and our politicians/bureaucrats....

Not sure how it is in Canada don- but in the US its a tumor that prevades thru all of government right now--the President-his appointees- the Congress--most who put the elitists pocket books above honesty and morality-- and until we cut it completely out, things will stay the same....

Many of us understand and agree with at least part of what you are saying but your whole arguement loses credibility when you throw the notion of Canadians and R-Calf working together. You can't be serious when you mention honesty and morality in the same breath as R-Calf?

Canadian and US producers met last month to try and iron out and some differences and clarify some misunderstandings which is the first step towards co-operation in working towards the goals you mention, BUT there wasn't an R-Calfer in the room and won't be.

 

[PORKER]

Good god, for all those Canadians opposed to Ron, take a step back and think about it for a moment. Who cares why the man is in it? I certainly don't. But what we have here is a possibility that we can now test live animals, confirm ONLY the positives (oops, there goes your idiot scenario Timmy), and finally enter into the all the markets that we have been barred from entering. Again, who cares why he's in it? I certainly don't. Let him spend the profits on cheap porn and booze for all I care. All I want to see is that live BSE test hit market so we can FINALLY leave this BSE BS behind us. As cattle producers we have WAY too much working against us. Its time we started eliminating some of it.

Great set of meaningful words , Ditto Rod , Cattlemen everywhere on the Globe need to back this soon to be Live BSE test.

 

[Anonymous]

Canadian and US producers met last month to try and iron out and some differences and clarify some misunderstandings which is the first step towards co-operation in working towards the goals you mention, BUT there wasn't an R-Calfer in the room and won't be.

Bill--If you are not including USCA/R-CALF/NFU then you are not meeting with the huge majority of cattle producers in the US-and the groups that starting in 2009 will probably have much greater influence on our countries direction than any other groups-- and are only getting smoke blowed up your backside...Which from reading many of the posts about ABP/CCA is all that they are doing :roll: - and that they also don't represent the majority of Canada's producers....

These Canadian groups, like our NCBA, seem to have a TimH mindset- and would watch their industry go into the sewer before they opposed their benefactors at the AMI/Corporate board tables or did something/thought outside the norm of the status quo......

How many BILLIONS of $ worth of beef could we have exported to Japan/Korea/China/the entire world if these Packer groups like NCBA, ABP,CCA hadn't supported the AMI/multinational promoted government ban against Packers being allowed to test and market tested beef :???:

 

[rkaiser]

If we could get beyond the Rcalf BSE border issue which is not about honesty and morality Oldtimer, I'm sure that some of the other Rcalf notions could be talked about.

Stay on track with support for testing and stop with the differences between Canada and the USA when it comes to BSE. The only differences are honesty and morality Oldtimer, and all the arguing in the world will not change that. Canada has taken a lead that the US could follow and indeed take it even further together to allow Creekstone Farms and any other challengers to the "beef trust" to help all of us by creating more demand for our product with testing.

You want to prove the USDA wrong over their border stand and flip flopping policy and you will never win. They will always have an excuse and many of your arguements simply feed their cause.

They do not have a legitimate excuse for not allowing testing however. If we were all to work together to show the public this wrong without pointing fingers and cherry picking science, we could get something done.

If we had a the one point of testing in common and left the rest in the a file for now, we could move to the next step.

Hell even old Tim would likely stop his ranting if a test were accepted, and as don points out, allowed by USDA, CFIA and supported by our industry leadership at NCBA and CCA.

It is the common ground that could lead to more and better ways for all producers to become more profitable and create even more demand for the wonderful beef that we all raise.

 

[Anonymous]

rkaiser- My biggest concern with the court challenge right now is that we try to get a favorable ruling so that there is not a precedence left on the books that USDA's decisions are unchallengeable by the private sector...That is against all thinking of a democratic or democratic republic government.....This would/does open up a huge area of misuse/abuse and sounds more like what would expect of a facist/socialist dictatorship.......

Much of the country tho is awakening to the unfairness the US has been subjected to with these current "Free Trade Laws" that have been written for profiteering by the multinational elitists -- sometimes at the expense of the majority of the public-- and I think some major changes are in store.....

A recent poll by the Wall Street Journal and NBC found that 58 per cent of Americans think that globalisation has been bad for the US and that only 28 per cent believe that it has been good. Ten years ago the split was more even: 48 per cent thought that globalisation was good and 42 per cent that it was bad. The biggest surprise is that supporters of the two parties are no longer far apart on the question. Globalisation has been bad for the US according to 55 per cent of Republicans and 63 per cent of Democrats.

 

[rkaiser]

Can't argue the global economic debacle Oldtimer. The only ones to gain by the global approach are multinational companies.

The challenge for the USA is that the population dictates that they need imports to survive. I guess you could take the approach that Rcalf has taken and drive the price of beef up by stopping imports so that only the rich can afford it, or you could look at it in a less nationalist view and work together with producers in a country you can trust.

Yes Canada needs to look beyond the USA for markets, but it would benefit both countries if we were to find a way to stop the multinational games played over the border which do not benefit producers on either side.

Of course opening the border to boxed beef helped the packers Oldtimer..... But it happened and you could not stop it. No further court action will stop it next time either. Realise your limitations Oldtimer ---- work for something that you have potential to change. Push for things that could help your producers in the future. Things like more product demand (by testing) and more producer ownership up the chain.


There are ways to make our industry more financial feasible, and first on the list is for producers to control more than a hairy beast standing outside the "in" door at the auction barn. You need to import, we need to export - if we worked together after understanding that basic fact, we could help producers on both sides of the 49th.

 

[Kato]

Boy, take a day away from the computer and things sure heat up! This is quite a hot topic eh?

To address an arguement from a couple of pages back, I think it would make more sense to substitute Contageous for Infectious. :wink:

I for one would like to know more about this live test.

Has it been received well by the 'powers that be' so far? What kind of feedback from the government agencies have you had?
Is it a possible prototype for a human test? That would be huge! :!:
How does it work?
I think it could be a terrific tool for researchers to make the work on incubation periods accurate. Right now there is way too much guesswork going on, and every time someone comes up with a new theory, which is usually almost impossible to prove, we seem to pay the price for their speculation.

A quick, accurate test could have saved us billions of dollars if it had been around in 2003. :!: :!: :!:

Besides, to be able to put BSE tested on the traceable records for our feeder cattle and breeding stock, combined with MCOOL which would keep our beef from being comingled with other beef would be a wonderful marketing tool eh? :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Sorry, I just couldn't help sticking that in. :wink: 8) :lol:

Happy New Year everybody!

 

[Anonymous]

Can't argue the global economic debacle Oldtimer. The only ones to gain by the global approach are multinational companies.

The challenge for the USA is that the population dictates that they need imports to survive. I guess you could take the approach that Rcalf has taken and drive the price of beef up by stopping imports so that only the rich can afford it, or you could look at it in a less nationalist view and work together with producers in a country you can trust.

Yes Canada needs to look beyond the USA for markets, but it would benefit both countries if we were to find a way to stop the multinational games played over the border which do not benefit producers on either side.

Of course opening the border to boxed beef helped the packers Oldtimer..... But it happened and you could not stop it. No further court action will stop it next time either. Realise your limitations Oldtimer ---- work for something that you have potential to change. Push for things that could help your producers in the future. Things like more product demand (by testing) and more producer ownership up the chain.


There are ways to make our industry more financial feasible, and first on the list is for producers to control more than a hairy beast standing outside the "in" door at the auction barn. You need to import, we need to export - if we worked together after understanding that basic fact, we could help producers on both sides of the 49th.

kaiser-- in a lot of ways I agree with you...The only thing different is that I see the court action as one way to break some of the power the multinationals, thru their control of USDA, have over the industry and cattlemen.....Problem is-- as was seen with Creekstone winning their court case-- the multinationals have deep pockets for appeals and buying out courts and politicians- especially when they get the USDA to use taxpayer dollars to fight their court or promotion battles...

Another good example is the millions of taxpayer $ being spent to promote/sell the multinationals Mandatory ID thru NAIS--its a travesty of globalist elitist corruption bought spending that the Administration has been giving USDA free run with the taxpayer dollar...I was pleased to see the Congress now cut a lot of that spending- and hope its a sign of the future....

 

[bse-tester]

You mean to tell me that when your test is in use around the world. I can't send you a case of fine Nebraska or South Dakota wine???

Katrina, seeing as how I make my own wine and usually around the time we bottle, the line is long at our door so please, come on up and get some here. I will gladly put aside a case for you in exchange for a bottle or two of your own choice wines.


Kato asks about accuracy.

As for the test being accurate - the lab in Cleveland tells us that they have not seen anything as close to perfect as this one. In fact, it - the test - was shown to both the CFIA and USDA in 2003 only a couple of months after the first Canadian BSE animal hit us. They each did not want to pursue it other than to suggest we get it validated. They were not interested in doing it. Having said that, the CFIA did, after looking at our protocol, make the stunning offer to provide us with bench-space in their lab in Winnipeg to conduct post validation tests - 10,000 of them - in order for them to actually see that it works. we told them that once it was validated, the OIC and DEFRA would literally advise them that it works and that they should expect it to be mandated for use rather than piddle around with 10,000 post validation tests. The then Chairman of DEFRA, Koen Van Dyke liked the protocol so much that he contacted me personally and then sent me the guidelines that they use to validate tests when they put out the call for new protocols. We missed the call by 3 weeks so he sent us the guidelines in order for us to validate here in North America. But since the USDA and the CFIA did not want to participate, we have contracted the US National Prion Surveillance Center at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland to conduct all of our validations once we obtain the necessary funds to proceed.

Also Kato, to answer your other question, the test was used on CJD patients from the Cleveland area who donated urine samples (each taken under strict control protocols of course) and each test conducted in a blind study was perfect in identifying each and every CJD patient. It also identified one Alzheimer's patient due to a urine sample being placed into the test lot - apparently by the Director of the Lab in order to see if the test would actually identify it as such at a different location on the kDa scale (the identification locale on the gel sheet used in the Western Blot)