'Mad cow' proteins successfully detected in blood

[TimH]

Mike- "Scary part is, if prions ARE in blood, it is also in meat. "

Hey Mikey, since you are soooo 100% convinced that the "Mouse bioassay" constitutes proof positive of transmission through feed, what is so scary about prions possibly being in meat?? After all, mice injected with "infected" muscle tissue homogenate(meat), did NOT develop BSE symptoms. Proving that "infectivity" is not found in meat.

If you believe the results of the mouse bioassay when they seem to prove "feed transmission", just why is it that that the bioassay is ignored when it seems to prove that there is NOT "infectivity" in muscle tissue??

It is absolutely impossible for prions to be in muscle tissue. This has been proven by the "be all and end all " infallible Mighty Mouse Bioassay!!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[Mike]

After all, mice injected with "infected" muscle tissue homogenate(meat), did NOT develop BSE symptoms. Proving that "infectivity" is not found in meat.

If they injected "infected" muscle tissue (meat) into mice, then where did they get the "infected" muscle tissue or infected meat to begin with?

The way your statement is written why would a test of this sort take place to start with if there was already some "infected meat"?

You're joking, right?

 

[TimH]

After all, mice injected with "infected" muscle tissue homogenate(meat), did NOT develop BSE symptoms. Proving that "infectivity" is not found in meat.

If they injected "infected" muscle tissue (meat) into mice, then where did they get the "infected" muscle tissue or infected meat to begin with?

The way your statement is written why would a test of this sort take place to start with if there was already some "infected meat"?

You're joking, right?

Haha! Now Mikey, I KNOW that you noticed that I put the word, "infected " in quotation marks. But I will re-phrase it, just so nobody steps on your hand while you are dancing around!

How's this..... " muscle tissue homogenate from a known BSE positive animal"........
:roll:

 

[Bill]

The real scarey part is that no one has proven that eating meat with misfolded prions will cause anything. All speculation and fear mongering.

The world don't care what you or I believe Randy. It is accepted as a fact by all governments and most of science that BSE is the carrier of vCJD.

You can argue with me til your fingers fall off, it won't change the way BSE is portrayed to the public and it won't keep the "Oprahs" of the world from sensationalizing it. Science would have to make a 180 degree turn and that would be unusual.

What does the detection in blood do to the SRM removal practice?

It is accepted as a fact by all governments and most of science that BSE is the carrier of vCJD.

Are you sure about that statement. Is it known fact?

 

[Mike]

Tim, I am not familiar with a study that injected meat from a BSE postive cow into a mouse. To comment on something I know nothing about would almost be as wild as someone doubting the usefulness of the mouse bioassay for use as a test for BSE.

Can I read the abstract of the study?

 

[Mike]

Bill wrote:

Are you sure about that statement. Is it known fact?

If you can show me a country that knowingly allows BSE positive animal meat to be imported for human consumption, I will gladly recant my statement.

 

[TimH]

Mike- "Tim, I am not familiar with a study that injected meat from a BSE postive cow into a mouse. To comment on something I know nothing about would almost be as wild as someone doubting the usefulness of the mouse bioassay for use as a test for BSE.

Can I read the abstract of the study?"

Fraser and Foster 1993, Mikey. :lol: Is this not a study that you have quoted before??? :shock: If not, google it and read away!! The info below is contained in a summary type document that is also available on the net.(to anyone who cares to look) :roll:

3. Muscle tissue from field cases and experimentally BSE-infected cattle were usedin earlier transmission studies. A series of experiments performed in the 1990sused 4 different muscles (masseter, semitendinosus, longissimus, diaphragm)from three infected clinically sick animals for intracerebral inoculation of wild-typemice (Fraser and Foster, 1993). None of the inoculated mice succumbed toBSE. The value of underestimation in this model resulting from titration across aspecies barrier was estimated at 102.7. A detection of the mouse bioassay ofapproximately 101.4mouse [i.c./i.p.] LD50/g is therefore equivalent to 104.1cattle[i.c.] LD50/g. (EC, 2002).In order to obviate the species barrier in these experiments, groups of calveswere inoculated intracerebrally with tissues from cattle killed sequentially afteroral exposure to the BSE agent. Each group of calves was inoculated with a poolof skeletal muscles (masseter, semitendinosus, latissimus dorsi) pooled from the2-3 cattle killed at each of the time points 6, 18, 26 and 32 months after exposurein the oral challenge study. As of March 31, 2002, these animals have survived43, 66, 38 and 65 months respectively and remain healthy.

"None of the inoculated mice succumbed toBSE. " :lol:

There it is folks!!! "Agent Infective" is not present in muscle tissue. The "MIGHTY MOUSE BIOASSAY" is proof positive. :lol:

 

[bse-tester]

There it is folks!!! "Agent Infective" is not present in muscle tissue. The "MIGHTY MOUSE BIOASSAY" is proof positive.

Read on McDuff, AKA TimH.

Dawson,et al, [1990] divided 4 to 5 month old calves including one Jersey Cross Limousin into four groups of four from Holstein/Friesian and Jersey herds. The animals were then inoculated directly into muscle tissue, with 10% saline brain homogenate prepared from four cases of BSE. For control purposes, an additional group of four calves were inoculated with saline only. In the group of calves inoculated with BSE, symptoms identical with the clinical disease developed within 37 to 78 weeks post-inoculation. The clinical symptoms observed in all cattle in group one to four were similar. Therefore, it was apparent from this study that the source of the four inocula - each prepared from a seperate case of BSE and from different breeds of cows, had no significant influence on the experimental outcome.

Burger et al [1963] Brain from infected Mink was mixed in a 10% homogenate and then 1 ml of homogenate was inoculated intramuscularly into 17 Mink, each receiving 1 ml of the homogenate. THis occured September 23 and October 7th, 1963. Two additional Mink were exposed for one week in a pen occupied by infected animals and were designated as contact mink and were kept as control. These 19 animals were housed on the same farm, where 829 normal mink [young adults] were kept from farming and acted as additional control for the study. From early March 1964, some of the animals injected started to show symptoms [abnormal behaviour] and by the end of March, all injected animals showed increased evidence of the disease. The survival time of the injected animals ranged from 183 to 197 days. Clinical observations were confirmed by histological changes which were typical of encephalopathy and only seen in the nervous system and similar to those seen in the natural outbreaks.

 

[bse-tester]

It wouldn't matter if the Pope blessed it- there will still be those that won't believe it ..... A US study- eh...Now thats studies from about 4 countries that say prions are in blood........Like you said not good- and especially since the USDA won't recognize it and strengthen the BSE firewalls...

We had our test [urine test]peer reviewed by the PHD's who do all the peer review for the Society of Experimental Biology and Medicine and advised the USDA almost two years ago of the fact that we had a urine test for PrPsc and they basically ignored us. I often wonder why it is that Governments fund their departments knowing full well that some of those departments are basically doing nothing to enhance the safety of the nations food products. Kind of creepy when you think about it.

 

[bse-tester]

Timh is still sure that PrPsc is not in meat. Well, if we find it in urine - how is that possible? Urine is the end result of blood being filtered by the kidney. Blood travels through the body and provides the medium in which all nutrient is carried to all cells. Blood is filtered by he kidney - do you see the point Timmy?

 

[Mike]

Tim, I never said that meat contained BSE, only that if the beginning experiment in this thread/topic were true, i.e. if prions were in blood that they would be in meat also. This stands to reason because all raw muscle tissue contains blood.

The experiment you just proposed means absolutely nothing to me concerning feed transmission. It only means that the mice were injected with meat that may or may not have contained prions. The problem with this experiment is that over 90% of infectivity is contained in CNS.

Better luck next time.

 

[cedardell]

If you can boost the infectivity with sound waves maybe they cause it in the first place. Whole thing could be caused by millions of women driving around gabbing on the cell phone.

 

[Anonymous]

If you can boost the infectivity with sound waves maybe they cause it in the first place. Whole thing could be caused by millions of women driving around gabbing on the cell phone.

You can take the heat on the women comment- I won't touch that :wink: ...But the sound waves and the sonic boom theories do raise questions....Years ago I would hear sonic booms from jets all the time- never hear them anymore...For what ever reasons the government has banned supersonic flight-- I was reading that even on the day of 9/11 the chase fighter planes called up were still operating under rules that required subsonic intercept speeds- a rule that has been change post 9/11......

 

[TimH]

There it is folks!!! "Agent Infective" is not present in muscle tissue. The "MIGHTY MOUSE BIOASSAY" is proof positive.

Read on McDuff, AKA TimH.

Dawson,et al, [1990] divided 4 to 5 month old calves including one Jersey Cross Limousin into four groups of four from Holstein/Friesian and Jersey herds. The animals were then inoculated directly into muscle tissue, with 10% saline brain homogenate prepared from four cases of BSE. For control purposes, an additional group of four calves were inoculated with saline only. In the group of calves inoculated with BSE, symptoms identical with the clinical disease developed within 37 to 78 weeks post-inoculation. The clinical symptoms observed in all cattle in group one to four were similar. Therefore, it was apparent from this study that the source of the four inocula - each prepared from a seperate case of BSE and from different breeds of cows, had no significant influence on the experimental outcome.

Burger et al [1963] Brain from infected Mink was mixed in a 10% homogenate and then 1 ml of homogenate was inoculated intramuscularly into 17 Mink, each receiving 1 ml of the homogenate. THis occured September 23 and October 7th, 1963. Two additional Mink were exposed for one week in a pen occupied by infected animals and were designated as contact mink and were kept as control. These 19 animals were housed on the same farm, where 829 normal mink [young adults] were kept from farming and acted as additional control for the study. From early March 1964, some of the animals injected started to show symptoms [abnormal behaviour] and by the end of March, all injected animals showed increased evidence of the disease. The survival time of the injected animals ranged from 183 to 197 days. Clinical observations were confirmed by histological changes which were typical of encephalopathy and only seen in the nervous system and similar to those seen in the natural outbreaks.

Are you on drugs, pee-pee tester??? Where in that article does it say anything about muscle tissue homogenate? It mentions injecting "brain homogenate" intra-muscularly.... but nothing about injecting muscle tissue homogenate.
No matter how many times you suggest that I can't read it will not come true!!
Try your "slight of hand" on someone else!!!! :lol:

 

[bse-tester]

If this was indeed the case, then most of the cattle in Central Alberta during the 60's and 70's and again the late 80's and early 90's would be stricken with BSE due to the Cold Lake Air Weapons Range F14 and F18 Squadrons flying low altitude training sorties all over Central and Northern Alberta. Ia mgoing to be ever so curious as to how they intend to validate this test based on the sound theory - Mike, your opinion would be welcome on this aspect of it. Cell structure and malformation due to sound invasion? The makings of a sci-fi movie here me thinks. So then the theory could be extended to battery hens that were subjected to music to help them relax and lay eggs?? Mm, the possibilities are endless. But an interesting concept. Sound does and can alter the function of certain cells for small and controlled time frames. But to completely turn a normal prion into an altered isoform PrPsc is something that has got my attention.

"The concentration of infectious prion protein in blood is far too small to be detected by the methods used to detect it in the brain, but we know it's still enough to spread the disease," said UTMB neurology professor Claudio Soto, senior author of the Nature Medicine paper. "The key to our success was developing a technique that would amplify the quantity of this protein more than 10 million-fold, raising it to a detectable level."

I would like to know how sound infusion can multiply the numbers of the Prion to detectable levels? This leads me to think they are suggesting the sound waves result in the replication of the protein and the essence or "Key" to thier studdy and findings is that sound is the major component of their approach to making this a workable test. But to suggest that sound will cause replication that leads to identifiable numbers [10 million-fold] of the PrPsc is quite a claim that demands detailed explanation. It is known that PrPsc will replicate in brain and thus cause the vacuoles that lead to brain disfunction. But to suggest that this process can be entirely create by adding sound? Mike, your opinion here also would be greatly appreciated. Ron.

 

[TimH]

Tim, I never said that meat contained BSE, only that if the beginning experiment in this thread/topic were true, i.e. if prions were in blood that they would be in meat also. This stands to reason because all raw muscle tissue contains blood.

The experiment you just proposed means absolutely nothing to me concerning feed transmission. It only means that the mice were injected with meat that may or may not have contained prions. The problem with this experiment is that over 90% of infectivity is contained in CNS.

Better luck next time.

Mikey,Mikey,Mikey. :roll: I realize that you never said that meat contained BSE. My point is, that you are willing to" bet the ranch" on the results of a mice bioassay that seems to indicate that BSE is transmissable through feed, but when a mice bioassay fails to prove "infectivity" in muscle tissue , all of a sudden the mice bioassay is no longer "proof enough".
I'll ignore the ,"experiment you just proposed ", comment, as I didn't propose it......and the "meat that may or may not have contained prions" spin-job, as the samples were taken from BSE positives in the field as well as lab-infected animals. :roll:

BTW, I've been working on my reading skills since you ,R2 and pee-pee tester pointed out just how much they were lacking.
Here is an excerpt of the chapter I was working on today..........

"See Mike run. Run, run, run. Run, Mike, run." :lol: :lol:

 

[Kathy]

For now, you can read this. I'll have to gather the rest of my thoughts, and repeat them, again to R2 et al. We had this discussion a while back when I posted the Dr. Vitaly Vodyanoy patent application:
United States Patent Application 20040137523
Kind Code A1
Vodyanoy, Vitaly J. ; et al. July 15, 2004

Method of isolation and self-assembly of small protein particles from blood and other biological materials

Abstract
Compositions and methods for the isolation and manipulation of misfolded, or partially misfolded, proteins present in blood and other biological materials are provided. In one aspect of the invention, the compositions, hereinafter termed "proteons" are comprised of misfolded proteins. Also provided are compositions and methods for the isolation and manipulation of proteon nucleation centers (PNCs) upon which the proteons of the present in blood and other biological materials form. In another aspect of the invention, the PNCs are comprised of metallic nanoclusters.
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The cyclical amplification procedure must include nerve cells which can produce healthy PrPC. Without the production by the nerve cell of the PrPC protein, there would be no amplification. The Vodyanoy patent appl. proves that metals contained in the blood sample, are absolutely necessary for the production/amplification of more PrPres (and/or) PrPSc.

I believe, I also posted this abstract, a while back.

Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2005 Jan 14;326(2):339-43.

Breakage of PrP aggregates is essential for efficient autocatalytic propagation of misfolded prion protein.

Piening N, Weber P, Giese A, Kretzschmar H.

Center for Neuropathology and Prion Research, Ludwig Maximilians University of Munich, Feodor-Lynen-Strasse 23, 81377 Munich, Germany.

The conversion of cellular prion protein (PrP(C)) to the disease-associated misfolded isoform (PrP(Sc)) is an essential process for prion replication. This structural conversion can be modelled in protein misfolding cyclic amplification (PMCA) reactions in which PrP(Sc) is inoculated into healthy hamster brain homogenate, followed by cycles of incubation and sonication.

In serial transmission PMCA experiments it has recently been shown that the protease-resistant PrP obtained in vitro (PrPres) is generated by an autocatalytic mechanism. Here, serial transmission PMCA experiments were compared with serial transmission reactions lacking the sonication steps. We achieved approximately 200,000-fold PrPres amplification by PMCA. In contrast, although initial amplification was comparable to PMCA reactions, PrPres levels quickly dropped below detection limit when samples were not subjected to ultrasound.

These results indicate that aggregate breakage is essential for efficient autocatalytic amplification of misfolded prion protein and suggest an important role of aggregate breakage in prion propagation.

 

[Kathy]

bse-tester,

nobody said sound alone caused the transformation of PrPC to PrPSc.

Why don't you read Dr. David Brown's new paper, "Copper binding is the governing determinant of prion protein turnover".

Research at U of Sask. (Dr. Helen Nichol) is looking at the effects of metal levels and Alzheimer's Disease (using Drosophilia - fruit flies). Dr. Nichol has examined the role of iron, especially. Copper does not magnetize but can oxidize. Iron can become magnetized, requiring currie temperatures similar to that of the "destruction" of the prion. Iron also oxidizes. Then there is zinc. (see Brown's report also).

Everyone who thinks this cyclical amplification is proof that prions are in the blood, need to do more research. Metals are in the blood, floating around in many forms, including simple ionic. So far, all the transmission experiments have utilized iatrogenic transmission. The drenching of the homogenate directly into the stomach is bypassing nature, so this is also iatrogenic.

 

[Mike]

Jethro, Your whole outlook at mice testing is flawed. When you inject mice with prions they come down with the disease. When you inject them with nothing they come down with nothing.

Are you doubting that there is a disease in cattle where misfolded proteins are found to cause brain damage? If your answer is yes, how did they first know which cattle had the disease? These prions are not visible through a microscope Timmy. They are only a few shades larger than an atom.

The first testing method was to take the brain, put it in a blender, and make a brain Daquiri. Then inject it into mice. If the mouse came down with it, started flopping and falling in the cage, obviously the culprit was the brain Daquiri.

Well one day some guys named Wells and Dawson, et al. decided to feed some cooked and dried brains (MBM) from some cattle who were proven to have prions on the brain to some calves just to see if the disease that they had killed so many mice with, would infect the calves. They did it, they fed 100 mg. to some, 10 mg. to some, and 1 mg. to some of the others. Just before lunch one day at the lab these guys said, hey, lets eat one of these calves for lunch today. The other one said, hey, so they won't think we are stealing a calf for food, why not take some brain matter from them, make a brain Daquiri, inject it into a mouse and call it an experiment. Well, needless to say the rest is history cause the mice developed the disease from the Daquiri's of the calves that were fed the MBM. The one's fed 100 mg. got the disease faster than the ones fed 10 mg. and not all of the ones that got fed 1 mg. killed the mice but some did.


The proof is in an article YOU posted Tim. Go back and read it.

 

[Kathy]

Dear Mike,

You have ignored me and my feelings are hurt.

Seek and you shall find. The truth shall prevail.

All that these mice studies have proven, is you should be very, very careful what you let someone inject into you.

LD/50 - lethal dose which kills 50% of test subjects (toxic agents)
ID/50 - infectious dose which "infects" 50% of test subjects

NCTA - non-conventional transmissible agent (BSE) - [sitting on the fence]

The Canadian Light Source, the International Vaccine Centre,and the Veterinary and Infectious Disease Organization (VIDO)

VIDO - veterinary and infectious diseases organization,
after Mar.19, 2003
VIDO - vaccines and infectious diseases organization

www.vido.org/news/read.php/24
VIDO name updated to "Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization"
Saskatoon, Sask., March 19, 2003

Canada's Veterinary Infectious Disease Organization (VIDO) has built a global reputation as a leader in vaccine development. Now it has a name to match.

VIDO has dropped the "Veterinary" from its name and updated it to the "Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization." The name change is subtle, but it's an important one that reflects the organization's core focus on vaccines and the expanding reach of its innovations, says Dr. Lorne Babiuk, VIDO Director. The organization has also updated its signature diamond-shaped logo to accompany the revised name.

"This is a small name change to better reflect what we've already been doing for many years," says Babiuk. "At a basic level, it's a reinforcement that VIDO's main activities are in vaccines. More broadly, it's a recognition that while our commitment to serving the livestock industry remains strong and is in fact increasing, the convergence of animal and human health research has dramatically broadened the relevance of VIDO's progress beyond the livestock industry."

Since its establishment in 1975, VIDO has focused on food animal infectious disease research and the development of livestock vaccines. This has resulted in a rich legacy of leading-edge technology for disease solutions, to benefit livestock producers, the food industry and society as a whole.

"Our main goal has always been preventative medicine, rather than so-called 'fire engine' medicine," says Babiuk. "In this area, vaccines are recognized as the most cost-effective method of reducing animal suffering and economic losses. This is why vaccine development has been emphasized as VIDO's top priority."

Today, rapid advances in many areas of science, particularly in biological or "life sciences," mean that research progress in this and other areas often has direct application in many other sectors, says Babiuk. For example, progress in a swine disease may lead to solutions for the same disease in bovine, poultry and even humans. This has created a movement at VIDO and other institutions toward "platform technologies."

"Platform technologies are not disease or animal specific," says Babiuk "Rather, they offer multiple applications across species and across diseases. In the case of VIDO, this brings broad benefits to all livestock sectors - including beef cattle, dairy cattle, swine and poultry - and opens new potential to extend animal health progress into the human health arena."

Over the past decade, the number of VIDO projects focused on platform technologies has tripled, and this trend is expected to continue as the organization kicks off a new era with a landmark $17 million expansion slated for occupancy in summer 2003.

VIDO has received strong support from the livestock industry throughout its history, says Babiuk. This funding, which comes directly from livestock groups, has remained stable over the past decade and continues as a driving force behind VIDO's progress. During the same timeframe, with increasing crossover opportunities, VIDO's funding support for broader research has more than doubled.

Both areas of research complement each other and have potential to draw significant crossover funding, he says. "For example, we believe that by expanding our activities into platform technologies and the human health arena, we can actually enhance the amount of funding we can capture for livestock use."

Often, disease research goals in animal and human health are closely related, he says. In fact, approximately 55 percent of the current infectious diseases that affect humans have an animal origin.

"A good example is our work toward preventing E. coli O157:H7," says Babiuk. "VIDO is working on vaccines for cattle to prevent environmental contamination of this pathogen, but obviously the benefit ultimately extends beyond the livestock industry to human health. This is just one of many areas where we see this kind of convergence."

The Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization is a world leader in vaccine research for the control of infectious diseases and is a wholly owned University of Saskatchewan not-for-profit institute. It operates with substantial support from the Government of Alberta and the Government of Saskatchewan as well as Government of Canada competitive grants.

For more information, contact:
Stuart Bond
Associate Director, Producer Relations
Vaccine & Infectious Disease Organization
Phone: (306) 966-7465
Fax: (306) 966-7478