Mandatory Age Reporting In Canada

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) Yes they recieve mail but recieveing mail in data and having the manpower to enter that data is two different things.
<snip>
Am I to believe you about the abilities of a system over someone that works with the system knows it capabilities and knows how many people work in an office that you seem to think could just do the work with little to no problems.

2) You third comment about the resistance on behalf of the CCIA is a JOKE. The CCIA has lead the way against great resistance in making changes to the way our beef is looked at and now you are claiming they the CCIA are resistant to change. when it comes to M"AGE" :roll:

3) There is a big difference in Porkers system and the CCIA system That big difference is Porker's system is VOLUNTARILY BEING TO SOLD to those producers that WANT it and can Afford it.

1) Just out of curiosity, I sat down and wrote a little test program that was very similar to the online age verification program. I entered a producer ID, which then brought up a screen of all the RFID tags that were assigned to that producer. Then I went down the list and entered in 20 birthdates.

I am NOT a data entry clerk, but do you know how long it took me? 58 seconds. And I am a HORRIBLE typist.

So instead of blindly following what people tell you, do a little math of your own. Bring up Excel, and start banging in some birthdates. Time yourself. And remember that there are professional data entry clerks whose speed and accuracy are unreal. If I can take 20 birthdates in a minute, they could do twice that amount with ease. Figure out how much time it takes to enter a birthdate, then multiply this by the number of calves that will be born in Canada this year.

Not much of a number is it? Of course, this is such a rough way to cost it that its not even funny, but if someone is trying to convince you that system cost would be millions, with operating costs of hundreds of thousands per year, someone is lying to you. The database and hardware is already in place for the voluntary system, so those costs are fixed whether the system is mandatory or voluntary. The only additional cost would be some data entry clerks to enter manually submitted data, which I've just shown you, would be trivial.

2) Well, there certainly isn't any logical reason. If someone has done an analysis and said "it will cost this much", I'd like to see it. Until thats been done, its simply the guesswork of someone who is not qualified to determine the cost of a system. In other words, if you're asking a secretary to determine the costs, you've asked the wrong person.

And before you make the illogical jump and say that I'm attempting to discredit the CCIA, let me say that I have worked with some CCIA folks and have been impressed through and through with their dedication.

3) Porker also said its being used in countries where its REQUIRED. I asked him to list those countries, but since he hasn't been on since, he hasn't had a chance to respond. And voluntary or not, you miss my point. The cost of the system neglible, so therefore the CCIA could do the exact same thing for even less, funded from the same source as M-ID is funded.

Rod

 

[Tam]

1) Yes they recieve mail but recieveing mail in data and having the manpower to enter that data is two different things.
<snip>
Am I to believe you about the abilities of a system over someone that works with the system knows it capabilities and knows how many people work in an office that you seem to think could just do the work with little to no problems.

2) You third comment about the resistance on behalf of the CCIA is a JOKE. The CCIA has lead the way against great resistance in making changes to the way our beef is looked at and now you are claiming they the CCIA are resistant to change. when it comes to M"AGE" :roll:

3) There is a big difference in Porkers system and the CCIA system That big difference is Porker's system is VOLUNTARILY BEING TO SOLD to those producers that WANT it and can Afford it.

1) Just out of curiosity, I sat down and wrote a little test program that was very similar to the online age verification program. I entered a producer ID, which then brought up a screen of all the RFID tags that were assigned to that producer. Then I went down the list and entered in 20 birthdates.

I am NOT a data entry clerk, but do you know how long it took me? 58 seconds. And I am a HORRIBLE typist.

So instead of blindly following what people tell you, do a little math of your own. Bring up Excel, and start banging in some birthdates. Time yourself. And remember that there are professional data entry clerks whose speed and accuracy are unreal. If I can take 20 birthdates in a minute, they could do twice that amount with ease. Figure out how much time it takes to enter a birthdate, then multiply this by the number of calves that will be born in Canada this year.

Not much of a number is it? Of course, this is such a rough way to cost it that its not even funny, but if someone is trying to convince you that system cost would be millions, with operating costs of hundreds of thousands per year, someone is lying to you. The database and hardware is already in place for the voluntary system, so those costs are fixed whether the system is mandatory or voluntary. The only additional cost would be some data entry clerks to enter manually submitted data, which I've just shown you, would be trivial.

2) Well, there certainly isn't any logical reason. If someone has done an analysis and said "it will cost this much", I'd like to see it. Until thats been done, its simply the guesswork of someone who is not qualified to determine the cost of a system. In other words, if you're asking a secretary to determine the costs, you've asked the wrong person.

And before you make the illogical jump and say that I'm attempting to discredit the CCIA, let me say that I have worked with some CCIA folks and have been impressed through and through with their dedication.

3) Porker also said its being used in countries where its REQUIRED. I asked him to list those countries, but since he hasn't been on since, he hasn't had a chance to respond. And voluntary or not, you miss my point. The cost of the system neglible, so therefore the CCIA could do the exact same thing for even less, funded from the same source as M-ID is funded.

Rod

1. So we are to force producer into something that they don't want just because you think you know more about the systems capabilities than those that are working with it every day. :roll:

2.

Did you speak to someone with the necessary qualifications, IE) a business analyst, who could actually speak intelligently about designing a business process to handle something along these lines?

Well, there certainly isn't any logical reason. If someone has done an analysis and said "it will cost this much", I'd like to see it. Until thats been done, its simply the guesswork of someone who is not qualified to determine the cost of a system. In other words, if you're asking a secretary to determine the costs, you've asked the wrong person.

Why does it matter who told me Rod the CCIA's actions speak louder than any one persons word. Since you have no idea who I talked to, these two comments of yours were insulting to the CCIA in general and discrediting to them. How long do you think any one in that office would last if the CCIA office manager or Board found out that they were giving out information to producers that wasn't backed up by the CCIA research on the issue? I would say that the ladies in that office know far more than you about the system they work with and explain to producers everyday.

3. I really don't care what countries are required to use Porker's system but you can bet that Porker isn't providing his companies system for FREE OF CHARGE like the CCIA is in Canada.
And I'm not about to take the word of someone that just posted he thought Age verification is as eazy as a producer writing don't a birthdate and eazier than tagging his cattle, when he posts the cost is neglible . Especially when the agency that runs the system says differently. CCIA has proved themselves!!!!!!! You to this point are the one that is basing your point of view on GUESSWORK. So why should we take your word over anyone in the CCIA office that works with the system that you only can guess about? :?
Like I said the smartest think you have said yet was The CCA was probably right that we simply need to give people time to get used to age verification, keep that in mind why don't you. :wink:

 

[Mike]

Tam. Nothing is free.

 

[Anonymous]

Tam-- You should go for a chameleon avatar...You scream that the US rancher should mandate an ID system- which would have to be paid for by the producer since it will not be financed by the US government-- but at the same time the Canadian ID system is heavily funded by government- but now you don't want to pay a dime to add birthdates to that system...Do you think you can suck a little more out of the government teat :???:

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1. So we are to force producer into something that they don't want just because you think you know more about the systems capabilities than those that are working with it every day. :roll:

Tam, please go back and re-read everything I said. I am not arguing that the people who work in CCIA office know more about the CURRENT systems than I do. What I AM saying is that whoever you talked to was NOT a systems analyst was thus WHOLLY unqualified to make any comment on the cost of implementing a manual entry system, which doesn't exist yet.

Why does it matter who told me Rod

Because you certainly don't ask a user to tell you how much a system costs to build. Should I ask the driver of a car how much cost to build the car THAT THEY HAVEN'T DROVE YET? You are attempting to bring information to this debate that is fallacious and of questionable use.

And I'm not about to take the word of someone that just posted he thought Age verification is as eazy as a producer writing don't a birthdate and eazier than tagging his cattle,

So, a manual system, which is what we've been haggling over, since the automated system already exists for voluntary Aging, is more difficult than writing down the birthdate of the animal? Odd, when I was RFID tagging my cattle this year, my 7 year old wrote down the RFID tag# and the cow tag# that the tag went into. From there my 9 yr old cross-referenced my birthing book for birthdate and I wrote it on the sheet that came with my RFID tags. End of manual system. Oh, except for having to pop it into the mail. So what you're telling me is that you feel the average cattle producer in Saskatchewan is less capable than a 7 or 9 yr old?

view on GUESSWORK. So why should we take your word over anyone in the CCIA office that works with the system that you only can guess about?

You miss the point. Voluntary ID already has the automated system in place. To go full mandatory ID would only require the services of a couple data entry clerks. Then we could service the needs of those producers who didn't have internet access.

Like I said the smartest think you have said yet was

I chose to ignore the dig last time, but this time I'm not. You've attempted to bait me down to your level with insults, but I won't buy into it.

And when you go to church tomorrow, you may want to read the good book a time or two. I'm not religious, but I certainly treat people with more respect and diginity than you've shown yourself capable of doing. You're now on ignore mode.

Rod

 

[cowsense]

CCIA is a producer run private company that administers the program with oversight from CFIA. I do believe that CCIA's income is based on a small commission from tag sales and that their budget is based on traceback accounting. While new tag uses such as M- age verification are entirely possible, the infrastructure and new expenses have to be handled and budgeted; the office is going full out at present and will have to expand to handle mandatory aging. Until then a volunatary program is probably best and personaly I like being rewarded by the marketplace with any kind of a premium to justify my management practices!
Rod; you mention the Chinese market as a reason to need mandatory age; We were already back in Hong Kong and Macau long before Japan ever opened and are moving significant volumes there. While they take some high value cuts they tend to also take a lot of lower value beef products. Mainland China is a different story; price alone determines purchases and quality is secondary......I've yet to see anything stating that they are opening up for large beef imports or that they are wanting age verification. You are right in that it is a huge market waiting for developement but it is a marketplace that will almost always chose the lowest cost provider and probably will be more of a market for manufacturing beef than high end cuts!

 

[Anonymous]

Who pays for the program?

Initial funds for the CCIA were received through a grant from the Beef Industry Development Fund. Additional funds to be used for trials and development have been approved through Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and a number of provincial governments and private industry organizations.


Looks to me like the government pays a lot of it- except in Canada its hard to distinquish what is government and what isn't :???:

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) Mainland China is a different story; price alone determines purchases and quality is secondary......I've yet to see anything stating that they are opening up for large beef imports or that they are wanting age verification.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, most of the talks with Chinese delegates have not been advertised, televised or recorded. I am aware of two producer owned entities attempting to gain access to the Chinese mainland market, and each has said they will need age verified beef, so its starting now. I've spoke to a variety of market analysts, livestock specialists, government workers, etc etc and most feel that age verified beef will be required on a world stage (not just Chinese) very soon. I don't think its something we can safely ignore for the next 5 years, especially since we desperately have to reduce our reliance on the US market. We lost billions when the border closed. We need to take measures to ensure this never happens again.

Rod

 

[Tam]

Tam wrote 1. So we are to force producer into something that they don't want just because you think you know more about the systems capabilities than those that are working with it every day. :roll:

Rod: Tam, please go back and re-read everything I said. I am not arguing that the people who work in CCIA office know more about the CURRENT systems than I do. What I AM saying is that whoever you talked to was NOT a systems analyst was thus WHOLLY unqualified to make any comment on the cost of implementing a manual entry system, which doesn't exist yet

How do you know you don't know who I talked to or what education she had. Or who she was in touch with or what information she has access to just because she didn't agree with you doesn't mean she didn't know what she was talking about.

Tam: Why does it matter who told me Rod

Rod: Because you certainly don't ask a user to tell you how much a system costs to build. Should I ask the driver of a car how much cost to build the car THAT THEY HAVEN'T DROVE YET? You are attempting to bring information to this debate that is fallacious and of questionable use

Maybe this is why I didn't ask you Rod :wink:
I ASKED THE CCIA. :lol: I would only hope that if they are answering questions about the system they WOULD KNOW or at LEAST HAVE ACCESS to the CCIA research on the system including the capabilities and cost to tell me the truth which I believe they did. I brought the information they gave me including the question they asked me to ask you. Just because it doesn't match your USER guesswork, doesn't mean it's the wrong information maybe they are the ones that know what they are talking about. :wink:

Tam:And I'm not about to take the word of someone that just posted he thought Age verification is as eazy as a producer writing don't a birthdate and eazier than tagging his cattle,

Rod: So, a manual system, which is what we've been haggling over, since the automated system already exists for voluntary Aging, is more difficult than writing down the birthdate of the animal? Odd, when I was RFID tagging my cattle this year, my 7 year old wrote down the RFID tag# and the cow tag# that the tag went into. From there my 9 yr old cross-referenced my birthing book for birthdate and I wrote it on the sheet that came with my RFID tags. End of manual system. Oh, except for having to pop it into the mail. So what you're telling me is that you feel the average cattle producer in Saskatchewan is less capable than a 7 or 9 yr old?

Pop it in the mail to who? :roll: the CCIA doesn't except mail in data they are not set up to do anything with it or telephone or fax. They will only except it if someone accesses their web site via the internet and puts the information in themself or has a third party user do it on the producers behalf. and As I told you, right now there is only ONE in all of SASK.

Tam: view on GUESSWORK. So why should we take your word over anyone in the CCIA office that works with the system that you only can guess about?

Rod: You miss the point. Voluntary ID already has the automated system in place. To go full mandatory ID would only require the services of a couple data entry clerks. Then we could service the needs of those producers who didn't have internet access

Again you seem to think you know more about the capabilities of the CCIA system than the CCIA themselves.

Tam: Like I said the smartest think you have said yet was

Rod: I chose to ignore the dig last time, but this time I'm not. You've attempted to bait me down to your level with insults, but I won't buy into it.

And when you go to church tomorrow, you may want to read the good book a time or two. I'm not religious, but I certainly treat people with more respect and diginity than you've shown yourself capable of doing. You're now on ignore mode.

Down to my level :shock: You claim you treat people with respect and diginity do you mean like this

the some selfish larger producers and packers have local producer associations buffaloed into believing

or this

So do me a favor and the next time you post on one of my threads, engage your brain and actually bring something to the table

and this

ALL this risk to our industry to preserve the premium of a few producers who have access to it?

and this

I don't know why its so difficult to get cattle producers, even those who say they are in leadership positions, to look past today, or even tomorrow and into the next 5 years. We producers need genuine leadership who understand the markets.

and this

but only a blind man can't see that age verification is going to be a necessary component of exporting beef in the future.

and this

Perhaps maybe then we'll have a true voice from up here, as the SSGA certainly did NOT represent my area on the age verification issue.

and this

Did you speak to someone with the necessary qualifications, IE) a business analyst, who could actually speak intelligently about designing a business process to handle something along these lines

and this

This sounds considerably more like resistance to change than anyone qualified sitting down and thinking this through.

and this

So instead of blindly following what people tell you, do a little math of your own.

and this

What I AM saying is that whoever you talked to was NOT a systems analyst was thus WHOLLY unqualified to make any comment on the cost of implementing a manual entry system, which doesn't exist yet.

and this

You are attempting to bring information to this debate that is fallacious and of questionable use.

Is this what you call treating people with respect and diginity up north. :roll:
You have called big producers selfish, question the intelligents of the CCIA staff, insulted the leadership the SSGA, and insulted me personally. And you have done this because all of these people do not support something you want.

 

[Manitoba_Rancher]

Well said Tam!! Thank you for getting the facts straight!! :clap:

 

[Tam]

1) Mainland China is a different story; price alone determines purchases and quality is secondary......I've yet to see anything stating that they are opening up for large beef imports or that they are wanting age verification.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, most of the talks with Chinese delegates have not been advertised, televised or recorded. I am aware of two producer owned entities attempting to gain access to the Chinese mainland market, and each has said they will need age verified beef, so its starting now. I've spoke to a variety of market analysts, livestock specialists, government workers, etc etc and most feel that age verified beef will be required on a world stage (not just Chinese) very soon. I don't think its something we can safely ignore for the next 5 years, especially since we desperately have to reduce our reliance on the US market. We lost billions when the border closed. We need to take measures to ensure this never happens again.

Rod

Rod I doubt you can consider the Canadian Beef industry is ignoring the issue. When in July 2005 there was over 63,200 Birthdates recorded and by Jan. 2006 that number had jump to over 1.7 million birthdates recorded. How is that ignoring the issue.

 

[PORKER]

Two producer owned entities attempting to gain access to the Chinese mainland market, and each has said they will need age verified beef, so its starting now. I've spoke to a variety of market analysts, livestock specialists, government workers, etc etc and most feel that age verified beef will be required on a world stage (not just Chinese) very soon.

Guess you could use ScoringAg or have it in your database that before you can send in tag numbers a born/date has to be attached or the system woun't send anything.The EU already has this and alot of countrys are jumping aboard on age validation.Nobody wants ten year old roasts.