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Minerals... Loose vs. Block

I think what GF was getting at is that Denny made it sound like he would normally treat his cows better, and that they got a substandard ration this summer. GF is incinuating that what he did is all a cow should require, just grass, no syrup, and no mineral. At least I think that's what GF is eluding to.

I personally don't have a clue what Denny's pasture looked like this summer, so I'm not going to comment on what he could or should have done. Been reading his stuff long enough to know that he can make his own decisions about what his critters do or don't need.

FH, I appreciate your willingness to help others and share knowledge. That's why I come on here, partly for entertainment, partly to learn from others. And I hear you about throwing out antibiotics - I stopped buying bottles a couple years ago. All we do now, is buy a plastic syringe full of whatever we need, when we need it, from the vet. Have even bought some off of a neighbour when in a jam or after hours. It doesn't make sense to buy a whole bottle that we use once, then it sits. It's like sitting on inventory in a store for months on end without turnovers.
 
One thing with our region is that it has been farmed longer then most of you guys, New England was raped of a lot of its rescources for the british until the Civil War when people went West looking for better land. I would argue that we have more of a need for minerals then you, not that you guys out West don't have a strong need for it.
 
Faster horses said:
Ok Robert Mac, let me rephrase something:

Cattle that do not have a good immune system will have more flies. :shock:

Is that better? Check your own cows out. The ones that might look a little
rougher, perhaps haven't shed off as well, etc will
have a bigger fly load. Their immune system isn't up to par for
some reason.
Click to expand...
FH, my point in all this is what Ben said..."I can see an obvious difference between cows in the same field."
Those cows with good immune systems are also cows with properly functioning endocrine system which are cows that are well adapted to the environment of your ranch. We all decide what inputs we use and where we place that performance bar. Cows that are obviously "good", keep heifers out of them and replace the cows that are obviously "poor".

I believe that if you supply your cattle with proper amounts of forage, you will find "good" cows that fit your environment and don't require any other inputs.

When you had your "wreck", did you have some "good" cows that did there job?
 
Maybe one out of 150. She was a mean ole rip too! :shock:

What happened to us was we purchased some registered cows out of the Gallatin Valley in Oct. 84. The first cow calved in January '85 (that's how the folks we purchased them from calved--not our idea). That calf got sick and from then on for 8 years our calves got sick. They got one thing after another. Pnuenomia, scours, overeating, diptheria, hoof rot; you name it, we had it. We doctored them more than once. We contacted vets (who sold us more vaccine--we gave pig medicine, dog medicine, people medicine--we had a regular labratory going on). They didn't die, but they didn't do well either. We called on feed dealers, universities; no one know what was wrong. So we left. There were pristene conditions where we were in W. Montana and our hay was top-notch. We moved to SE Montana; the first year (1993) the calves got sick. Same deal. Fever.
Doctor. Next day temp down; third day, temp back up. Doctor again.
Whew. Then they would get sick with what I mentioned. We just were at the end of our rope, didn't know what to do. I heard about the mineral
and in late winter 1994 I called the area sales manager in Miles City. He came out and took a look. He just about fell out of his pickup. We had classic signs of copper deficiency!! We got on the mineral and we no longer have sick cattle. Period. Even this spring with the horrible weather, we lost one calf and he got stepped on; doctored one. That's the way it's been since 1994. We don't even worry about them any more. Only bad thing, our horses don't get used as much...since we aren't doctoring cattle.

One year our calves went to Kan-Sun feedlot and
a bad storm moved in there right after our calves arrived. It was a tough one. About 3 weeks later the feedlot called and they never doctored any of our calves!! That's why I mention Immune System, Immune System, Immune System.

Now for the rest of the story. Our old neighbor called and he was beside himself because they had epidemic hoofrot. I asked what mineral he was using and to send me a tag. He did and I called John Patterson at MSU and went through it with him. This mineral had 1250 ppm copper;
John said they had done research where we used to live, and there
were sulfates in the water with causes a tie-up of copper. BINGO!! And 1250 ppm of copper was not enough in that area to do any good. So
I called our old neighbor back, we got him on track and he never had
hoof rot problems again. And neither do our customers...nor do we.

So that is what happened to us. We were not on a good mineral program and when we bought those outside cows in, we had problems because our cattle had no immune system to fight off disease that we brought in. The only thing I noticed was each year the young cows that were born on the place, their calves took longer to get sick. They had a little more immune system, but not good enough.

I hope that explains it. If you have other questions, please ask.
I am passionate about this subject. I've read where others have gone
through the same as us and if I can, I call them up and try to help.
It's a horrible feeling to have sick cattle constantly.

Heck, I even called Heather Smith Thomas when she was writing about
all the scours and sickness problems they had. I was tired of reading about it. I asked her if they fed mineral. Guess what? The answer was NO.
So I visited with her about it and what a difference mineral makes.

Like I said, I'm not doing this to line my pockets. I'm doing it because I wish someone had known what was the matter with our cattle. I care,
I really do--if it helps one person (and it has), it was worth my effort.

I appreciate your question.
 
Most of us have deep enough pockets to practice selection some of you amateur Charles Darwin's want to practice evolution. The funniest thing I think I've ever seen is a grain feeder in a bison pasture-I asked the breeder what was up-he replied-"If I grain them a bit just before breeding-they breed back better"-I said isn't that why you got of your simmental cows. talk about a stunned silence. I have probably as low input an outfit as anybody-but to turn a group of any kind of livestock loosein an area that has majot deficiencies and planning to make a living on what happens to make it isn't too smart. I know because I've done it.
 
The 1200ppm copper level you mention was interesting FH - we used some minerals with copper in the 5500-6000ppm range in Scotland. That was why I asked the question about the sheep before - they are a good indicator species for copper deficiency in cattle. Long before you notice problems in cows the lambs would have "swayback" at birth an incurable condition that means they can't walk properly. The remedy is to inject the pregnant ewes with 2 cc copper sulphate twice during pregnancy. The guys that tell you copper poisons sheep don't live on very copper deficient soils.
Actually at the more severe copper shortage levels we had sick calves were not the issue - open cows were. Easily 35-40% open if you didn't correct the problem no matter how good their grass was. The other problem that occurred was with calves born dopey, wouldn't suck etc. Copper can be a problem to deal with for sure - glad it isn't an issue here.
 
Not to play devil's advocate Northern, but I can't help reminding you that evolution has no real beginning or end. You and I typing on a computer to post on this site, raising grass-type genetics, getting up in the morning and walking out the door, are taking part in evolution. It's like time, it's gonna go on no matter what we do. I hear your argument, and have made some of the same choices you have in regards to turning cattle out with no supplements. However, if RobertMac says he's doing it and making a living off of it, and he's happy with his herd and product - SO FRIGGIN BE IT.

If someone else is making a go with livestock giving them lots of feed and all the Vigortone, Promolas, DDGS, or byproducts they can find, SO FRIGGIN BE IT. Why do we need to jump on each other for how we do things?

Now, let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...... :P :wink:
 
PureCountry said:
Not to play devil's advocate Northern, but I can't help reminding you that evolution has no real beginning or end. You and I typing on a computer to post on this site, raising grass-type genetics, getting up in the morning and walking out the door, are taking part in evolution. It's like time, it's gonna go on no matter what we do. I hear your argument, and have made some of the same choices you have in regards to turning cattle out with no supplements. However, if RobertMac says he's doing it and making a living off of it, and he's happy with his herd and product - SO FRIGGIN BE IT.

If someone else is making a go with livestock giving them lots of feed and all the Vigortone, Promolas, DDGS, or byproducts they can find, SO FRIGGIN BE IT. Why do we need to jump on each other for how we do things?

Now, let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...... :P :wink:[/quot

best post on this topic so far. i don't think anyone has the "right" answer. do as you see fit, and criticize your nieghbors for the way they do things. probably the way it has always been, and probably always will be. i'm not trying to run your outfit, don't try and run mine. should work..........
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Justin said:
PureCountry said:
Not to play devil's advocate Northern, but I can't help reminding you that evolution has no real beginning or end. You and I typing on a computer to post on this site, raising grass-type genetics, getting up in the morning and walking out the door, are taking part in evolution. It's like time, it's gonna go on no matter what we do. I hear your argument, and have made some of the same choices you have in regards to turning cattle out with no supplements. However, if RobertMac says he's doing it and making a living off of it, and he's happy with his herd and product - SO FRIGGIN BE IT.

If someone else is making a go with livestock giving them lots of feed and all the Vigortone, Promolas, DDGS, or byproducts they can find, SO FRIGGIN BE IT. Why do we need to jump on each other for how we do things?

Now, let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...... :P :wink:[/quot

best post on this topic so far. i don't think anyone has the "right" answer. do as you see fit, and criticize your nieghbors for the way they do things. probably the way it has always been, and probably always will be. i'm not trying to run your outfit, don't try and run mine. should work..........
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I don't know, Justin. I really had high hopes of running your outfit while yodeling "Kumbaya". BTW PC, I tried singing that song. Dog bit me in the ash and it was the only pair of shorts I had. I'm in a real bind now.

Minerals: Unless you have run a micronutrients test on the soil several times a year to make any corrections AND know each cows deficiencies, I don't know how anyone can go without at least offering free choice minerals at certain times of the year. I've had cows that wouldn't touch the mineral feeders while others gobbled it up. I can certainly understand the copper issue. Down here, we have a selenium deficient soil. Although it's not often we see white muscle disease, one has to wonder about calves that die a day after birth for no explainable reason. For us it's either correct the soil or supplement.
 
I call them as I see them-just trying to keep some people from learning the hard way like I did. By all means do what you want but prepared for some expensive lessons. Not going to argue semantics with anybody.
 
Grassfarmer said:
Denny said:
Well I can say my cow's have been on the lean train all summer they had mineral mixed 50/50 with salt dureing breeding season and fed syrup from the distillars plant in july now with some rains they have been on grass alone nothing else.I have'nt treated one case of anything this year. I would like to be feeding some mineral but baler twine and parts have kept me in short finances. I do know you can't spend your way to profit but you can be to cheap also. Vigortone mineral is the least cost mineral I can buy but I need a couple ton to make it work and there's no money for that right now so they will have to wait.Nov 1st can't get here soon enough this year..
Click to expand...

I thought that cows were supposed to live on grass - in summer at the very least :???: Have you selected your cows to perform on this level of inputs?
Click to expand...

Well I don't quite know how to answer your sarcastis question but here it goes. I think cow's need mineral and salt and GOOD grass if you don't have GOOD grass you should supplement with something distillars syrup is high in protein and high in phos a win win if your breeding cow's I figure but what do I know. I will feed by-products if I can access them cheap like FREE, Just paying trucking is a huge expense. Our cows will live on corn silage this winter and free choice grass hay and some syrup I'm sure. Fat cows make me feel good so The lean train will never stop here again.I've tried the low to no inputs and it cost more than I am ever willing to try again.You can't starve the profit out of a cow.

Rain can make any rancher look smart try 3 dry summers in a row and sand pastures doing nothing does'nt work.
 
Since we're talking about problems in beef cattle I would like to get some feedback on a potential problem I am having. In the last 4 or 5 years I have been having more stifle problems than I have ever had previously. Now I whole-heartedly believe that genetics do play a part in it but I am wondering if nutrution could be at fault also. I live in a historically high calcium area-SUPPOSEDLY and therefore have been feeding 2 to 1 calcium mineral. I do feed a good chelated mineral but wonder if I need a 3 to 1 mineral possibly.
 
What about feed potassium levels? It's just a shot in the dark but feed too high in Potassium is the real cause of milk fever, not being too low in Calcium. If my memory is correct it changes the blood pH and does something to the shape of receptors and prevents the mineralization of calcium. I haven't heard of of being a problem in beef cattle?

Have you tested animals for lyme disease? Is it a problem in your area? We've had our dog and a horse get it.
 
Liveoak said:
Justin said:
PureCountry said:
Not to play devil's advocate Northern, but I can't help reminding you that evolution has no real beginning or end. You and I typing on a computer to post on this site, raising grass-type genetics, getting up in the morning and walking out the door, are taking part in evolution. It's like time, it's gonna go on no matter what we do. I hear your argument, and have made some of the same choices you have in regards to turning cattle out with no supplements. However, if RobertMac says he's doing it and making a living off of it, and he's happy with his herd and product - SO FRIGGIN BE IT.

If someone else is making a go with livestock giving them lots of feed and all the Vigortone, Promolas, DDGS, or byproducts they can find, SO FRIGGIN BE IT. Why do we need to jump on each other for how we do things?

Now, let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya...... :P :wink:[/quot

best post on this topic so far. i don't think anyone has the "right" answer. do as you see fit, and criticize your nieghbors for the way they do things. probably the way it has always been, and probably always will be. i'm not trying to run your outfit, don't try and run mine. should work..........
Click to expand...

I don't know, Justin. I really had high hopes of running your outfit while yodeling "Kumbaya". BTW PC, I tried singing that song. Dog bit me in the ash and it was the only pair of shorts I had. I'm in a real bind now.

Minerals: Unless you have run a micronutrients test on the soil several times a year to make any corrections AND know each cows deficiencies, I don't know how anyone can go without at least offering free choice minerals at certain times of the year. I've had cows that wouldn't touch the mineral feeders while others gobbled it up. I can certainly understand the copper issue. Down here, we have a selenium deficient soil. Although it's not often we see white muscle disease, one has to wonder about calves that die a day after birth for no explainable reason. For us it's either correct the soil or supplement.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

be a smart azz, thats fine by me. all i meant was as theses topics go on, and on...the suggestions start to fade and the teachin and preachin starts.
 
What is the source of calcium in your mineral, badroute?

I know we experienced what you are describing...we had some
heifers we kept when we AI-d, they were born in 1989, when we
were not on a mineral program. They were coming 4's when we
moved here in 1993 and didn't get mineral til they were coming
5 years old. Almost all of them wound up stifled when they
were about 8 or 9 years old. I attributed it to not having
their nutrition needs met when they were growing. Was it
genetic, or was it nutrition?

I know that since we've diligently fed mineral, it's the odd
thing to have a stifled cow here.

If cattle are shorted in a nutrient, they will rob from their own
stores first. That is why some cattle have no teeth when they
are still young.
 
Northern Rancher said:
I call them as I see them-just trying to keep some people from learning the hard way like I did. By all means do what you want but prepared for some expensive lessons. Not going to argue semantics with anybody.
Click to expand...
If that's the way you "see them", then I'm doing a poor job of explaining. You must have missed where I said that mineral offered the best return on investment a cattleman could make with his dollars. And I totally agree with FH that a good mineral that addresses deficiencies should be used. (FH, have you ever talked to Gearld Fry? You two would have a good talk about minerals.)
My main point is adaptation, not evolution.
Do you have the same forages/plants in Canada that I have here close to the Gulf? Absolutely not...because of climate/environmental differences. So how can we expect the same genetics in cattle to work where ever we want to raise them? All I'm suggesting is that the cattle that are best adapted to the climate/environment and natural resources of our land are going to the best job at the least cost. The best way not to learn things the hard way is to buy cattle from someone that has learned things the hard way.

Thanks, PC.
 
I'd say this horse has been beaten and flogged six ways from sunday. The gist of what i was saying for those of you who cared to think it through was-to draw a supplementary line in the sand that your stock can't cross is fraught with peril-some areas you'll get by fine, sme you might suffer some production loss but some you might suffer a full blown wreck. about all I'm going to say on the matter-i learnt my lessons-schools open for the rest.
 

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