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Minerals... Loose vs. Block

Big Muddy rancher said:
Maybe I didn't use the right words and no PC It wasn't directed at you as you said you can try to correct your land but on large acres it was expensive.

I feel that feeding minerals balances out whats missing in your grass and water. Would you spread selenium over a large area or treat the calves?

Yes try to improve your soil but if you can improve your cows performance and make a profit why wouldn't you?
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Must of been directed at Kit Pharo! :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol:

If you didn't put out minerals, would ALL your cattle get sick, come up open, not be able to raise a decent calf? The old saying is...if one can do it, they all should.

I don't believe there is any doubt that supplementing mineral is profitable for most all cattlemen...but my question is...does it hide flawed genetics?
 
RobertMac said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Maybe I didn't use the right words and no PC It wasn't directed at you as you said you can try to correct your land but on large acres it was expensive.

I feel that feeding minerals balances out whats missing in your grass and water. Would you spread selenium over a large area or treat the calves?

Yes try to improve your soil but if you can improve your cows performance and make a profit why wouldn't you?
Click to expand...
Must of been directed at Kit Pharo! :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol:

If you didn't put out minerals, would ALL your cattle get sick, come up open, not be able to raise a decent calf? The old saying is...if one can do it, they all should.

I don't believe there is any doubt that supplementing mineral is profitable for most all cattlemen...but my question is...does it hide flawed genetics?
Click to expand...

I think it can, but the reality is in the past large herbivores traveled a lot of miles across the country and covered a lot of different landscapes and soil types. Not sure they have that option now. For example our area is selenium deficient and likely always will be. A bit of supplement is simpler than dealing with white muscle disease.

The other tradeoff I see with breeding the adapted cowherd in a situation with extremely limited or vastly excessive minerals is generating income now for the price of a inexpensive practice vs. a lifetime of breeding to maybe get to the point where the cattle are adapted to your own conditions and maybe not anyone elses. I have dealt with some situations where a mineral program can help solve 10+ opens. Most operations can't handle that kind of loss.

I agree with the soil health and focusing on that, but there are some things that can help.
 
MN Farm Girl said:
I am trying to give them reasons as to why switching to loose form pays. And my reasons were not enough. So I am looking for more reasons from more people to try and let them know of the benefits. Now a block has the same amount of mineral as loose???? Just wondering of the nutritional benefits.
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This block you refer to as a "mineral block".....does it have a guaranteed analysis on it with the guaranteed levels of the various minerals and vitamins listed OR is it simply a salt block with only a "trace" of minerals in it?? If it is nothing but a TM Salt block you would be as well off to just throw out some white salt blocks and forget it. Cows will wear out a good tongue trying to meet her needs with a block whereas with loose mineral, a few flicks of the tongue and she has all she needs.
 
Animals are pretty well adapted to getting out and finding what they need-unfortunately for their sakes we build fences to confine them to suit our needs and wants. I just had a thought if water was evenly distributed so it didn't influence grazing patterns would your cattle tend to overgraze the areas that most met their requirements biologically or just what tastes good to them-think of teenage kids with unlimited access to oatmeal or chocolate bars. If they grazed the most 'healthy' areas of range wouldn't that allow the areas that need some rest to rebuild over time and become better suited. Nutritional needs vary so much from area to area,herd to herd and season to season that its hard to chisel the one best system or program to make everybody healthy, rich and in the black financially.
 
TexasBred said:
MN Farm Girl said:
I am trying to give them reasons as to why switching to loose form pays. And my reasons were not enough. So I am looking for more reasons from more people to try and let them know of the benefits. Now a block has the same amount of mineral as loose???? Just wondering of the nutritional benefits.
Click to expand...

This block you refer to as a "mineral block".....does it have a guaranteed analysis on it with the guaranteed levels of the various minerals and vitamins listed OR is it simply a salt block with only a "trace" of minerals in it?? If it is nothing but a TM Salt block you would be as well off to just throw out some white salt blocks and forget it. Cows will wear out a good tongue trying to meet her needs with a block whereas with loose mineral, a few flicks of the tongue and she has all she needs.
Click to expand...

That doesn't explain the rate of disappearance of block salt around here. When cows are really salt hungry they scrape it off with their teeth. Doesn't take a cow long to get what they want. I suppose if pasture conditions were so bad they couldn't take a five minute break from searching for forage to lick a block then loose would be required :D
 
Faster horses said:
And silver, they use their top and bottom teeth to do it, right?


















The devil made me do it.
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :gag: :wave:
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Ya know, I almost wrote "using their bottom teeth" but I knew some smarty pants would say something if I did that :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Seriously, a woman who helped a fella ride taking care of some cattle for several years, got a couple of head of her own. Somehow the subject came up about cow's teeth. The ole' fella that she rode with was quite a character and he said something about her cows must have lost their top front teeth. She got all excited and went to all the trouble to look and see; getting the cows in, loaded them up and hauled someplace where there were some working facilities, getting the cows in the squeeze chute, looking in their mouth and SURE ENOUGH...no top teeth. :shock:

She immediatly loaded them back up
and took them to the veterinarian. There were the usual Baxter Black types haning around the vet clinic and when she told them her story,
they had a heyday with her. She didn't live it down for a long time,
either. :P

She was soooo mad she didn't talk to her ole' partner for a month!!!!!! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
:wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
So how good would the soil need to be or how much calcium would be needed in the mineral to grow in a row of front tops? :-)
 
RSL and Northern, thanks for the responses, but your point on building fences and restricting cattle movement sounds like some statement a mineral salesman would use...no offense FH. :wink: :heart: I believe that using minerals has the best ROI of any practice cattlemen use in terms of health, reproduction, and production...I think we all agree on that.

My ranch is located in the Coastal Plains soil region (low selenium levels is just one of my problems)...which means this land was once ocean bottom. The soil texture is a loamy sand...which means it dries as hard as concrete and is like quick sand with water standing on it. The parent soil has a pH range of 4-5, very low calcium, P, and K. Any mobile nutrients are leached away by the 5-6 feet of rain we get each/most years(not to mention the leaching by flood waters that cover about half my land 2-6 times a year). Parent soil is essentially dead! The live zone(top soil) is at best 2 inches deep...averaging more like one inch. pH 5-5.5 with very low available nutrients.

My point is that my environment is not conducive to provide a highly mineralized, highly nutritious food supply, yet my cattle have adapted to it. The vast majority are healthy, produce, and reproduce with the only inputs forage and water. Cattle are incredibly adaptable creatures.

Can the cattle we produce today survive 100 years ago?
 
RobertMac if you must know I don't feed much mineral either but what I was getting at is a 100 years ago cattle could go to salt licks etc to meet their needs etc. When a stockman starts to cut inputs he walks a fineline between practicing selection or relying on evolution. My point was you have to stay in business while your cattle adapt to whatever management regimen you bestow on them. I've never tested it myself but our native meadows are supposed to have more minerasls etc than the tame grasses especially ones that are fertilized heavily. I haven't used fertilizer for 20 years or so. I guess if I was more inqisitive I'd of been testing and tracking-soils etc since that time. I know that bale grazing rejuvenates a pasture better than any other practice I've done.
 
Rob Mac - I don't disagree, but those cattle of old may not have been as productive as cattle today. What was the conception and growth rate for example? OH GREAT! that just started a debate on productivity vs. profitability.
:???:
We provide a restricted free choice mineral that is matched to our forage/feed. It is a pretty low cost way to boost performance for us, and we figure the return on investment is positive for us. We probably have cows that don't need it or even use it and do fine, but I am not willing to lose the production from the others trying to find those few.
To each his own I guess...
 
Each to their own. I would rather feed a few dollars worth of custom mineral than ship empty cows and treat or watch die weak, sick little calves in the spring.
I have no interest in recreating evolution. Other than 25 acres of oats/peas we use no commercial fertilizer.
 
Can the cattle we produce today survive 100 years ago?

I fail to see the relativity in that question.
100 years ago, if a cow calved every year that was a big
deal; let alone raise a calf with any weight to him.
There were no inputs, so output didnt matter.
Maybe that time truly was the good old days...
but today we have to make cattle pencil out to keep
us in business. It's hard. And we can't afford to overfeed;
but we can't afford to underfeed, either. It seems to
work to supplement what is KNOWN to be lacking.

I'm totally in grcreek's corner when he says this:
"I would rather feed a few dollars worth of custom mineral than ship empty cows and treat or watch die weak, sick little calves in the spring. "

Cuz often times that's what happens when nutrition requirements
aren't met and immune system is compromised.
I've seen it too many times.
 
RSL said:
Rob Mac - I don't disagree, but those cattle of old may not have been as productive as cattle today. What was the conception and growth rate for example? OH GREAT! that just started a debate on productivity vs. profitability.
:???:
Big vs. small
linebreeding vs. crossbreeding
Maternal vs. performance
Angus vs. hereford
Angus vs. everything else

Ain't ranching great!!!! :D

To each his own I guess...
:agree:
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