VB RANCH
Well-known member
Trace mineral blocks are just that, a trace, most of them are 90 some percent salt, but if it works dont f with it
Minerals... Loose vs. Block
- Thread starter MN Farm Girl
- Start date
Just Ranchin
Well-known member
I hope I might be able to add a little bit of my enlightenment. Mineral blocks are a great fundraiser for feed suppliers. The molasses content is very high (not sure on bulk molasses cost, but it is really cheap next to Phos) and yes, if the moisture content of the block is high, the cows will be able to literally eat the block.
I do agree that they do have their purpose, but if at all possible, loose mineral is the answer. When using loose mineral, always have loose salt available. Typical loose minerals contain small amounts of salt to control consumption (3-6%), and if salt blocks are not available, the cows will overeat the mineral. If you have concerns with feeders tipping over, the mineral tub is either empty, or you have bigger concerns and should check to see that you still have a barn and house.
Try to go with a weatherized, large particle size mineral. They handle rain better, and watch the phos level does not get too high, as anything higher than 6-8% can taste really bitter. Hope this info might help
I do agree that they do have their purpose, but if at all possible, loose mineral is the answer. When using loose mineral, always have loose salt available. Typical loose minerals contain small amounts of salt to control consumption (3-6%), and if salt blocks are not available, the cows will overeat the mineral. If you have concerns with feeders tipping over, the mineral tub is either empty, or you have bigger concerns and should check to see that you still have a barn and house.
Try to go with a weatherized, large particle size mineral. They handle rain better, and watch the phos level does not get too high, as anything higher than 6-8% can taste really bitter. Hope this info might help
Grassfarmer
Well-known member
I don't consider molasses based tubs or blocks an alternative to loose mineral, I have used them only occasionally and for a different purpose. Sometimes when we are grazing low quality banked grass in winter we can extend the grazing season by a couple of weeks at less cost that going onto full winter feed. We are supplying energy with them, plus some minerals and that is their only purpose. Normally they are far too expensive to use. I was talking about trace mineral salt blocks as the alternative to loose mineral/saltJust Ranchin said:
I generally find the bulls don't play with the barn or the house and if they did they probably couldn't tip them over :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:Just Ranchin said:
MN Farm Girl
Well-known member
We have the vigortone mineral with the added salt so we don't have to worry about two tubs. We have a mineral feeder that rotates on a base and even the bulls have never tipped it over. I guess the concept of the mineral blocks is okay but they are way to hard. For us, yes the vigortone is very expensive but when the cows only eat 2-3 ounces a day we come out in the long run. When they are out and we fill the feeder they go ape over it for about 24 hours. Then they have balanced themselves out and only take in that 2-3 oz. When I have explained this vigortone to other cattle producers they say "well $30 a bag is too much". Then my reply is they only eat a small amout each day, and the only time that they eat and eat is when they are getting themselves on track so to speak.
Faster horses
Well-known member
Yep, right on MnFarm Girl.
And to PstB who says it all comes down to cost; that's not true.
It comes down to meeting the cows mineral requirements to get
optimum production out of said cow. Vigrotone mineral MAKES
OUR CUSTOMERS money or they wouldn't be buying it.
When you consider basically NO HEALTH PROBLEMS which leads
to less cost at the Verterinarians, added weight to your calves
and better conception rates; you are making money.
There are mineral companies (not very many) and there are
companies who make mineral. There is a huge difference.
Vigortone puts their reasearch into mineral because that is
what their company is all about. They are the oldest mineral company
in the US. They are the industry leader. They took a lot of flack
about their 7% phos mineral and that was part of their secret to
sucess. Particle size is of utmost importance and they have researched
what particle size is easiest for the cow to utilize.
Well, I don't want this to sound like a Vigortone commercial, so
I will 'quit. PM me if you have any questions. Or ask it here,
makes no difference to me.
I've enjoyed this thread.
And to PstB who says it all comes down to cost; that's not true.
It comes down to meeting the cows mineral requirements to get
optimum production out of said cow. Vigrotone mineral MAKES
OUR CUSTOMERS money or they wouldn't be buying it.
When you consider basically NO HEALTH PROBLEMS which leads
to less cost at the Verterinarians, added weight to your calves
and better conception rates; you are making money.
There are mineral companies (not very many) and there are
companies who make mineral. There is a huge difference.
Vigortone puts their reasearch into mineral because that is
what their company is all about. They are the oldest mineral company
in the US. They are the industry leader. They took a lot of flack
about their 7% phos mineral and that was part of their secret to
sucess. Particle size is of utmost importance and they have researched
what particle size is easiest for the cow to utilize.
Well, I don't want this to sound like a Vigortone commercial, so
I will 'quit. PM me if you have any questions. Or ask it here,
makes no difference to me.
I've enjoyed this thread.
Larrry
Well-known member
A question-----
If cows eat mineral because they need it and when they get their requirement they stop.
Now then why do mineral co.s put flavor in their mineral?????????????
If cows eat mineral because they need it and when they get their requirement they stop.
Now then why do mineral co.s put flavor in their mineral?????????????
Faster horses
Well-known member
I have no idea because Vigortone mineral is not flavored.
Some so-called mineral companies add grain by-products to
their mineral too; to keep the price down. How do you like paying
mineral price for grain?
Or it has too much phos and that makes it very bitter and they
add the flavoring to get the cows to eat mineral whereas without
it, cows wouldn't touch it because it is bitter. Vigortone contains no
grain by-products.
Liquid feed dealers control consumption (or try to) by uppping
the levels of phosphorus to back the cattle off the liquid. It works because the phos is bitter. Too much molasses can upset the rumen and cause
lots of problems.
I can only speak for Vigortone mineral because I have been a
dealer since 1994. We add yeast culture which makes it more
palatable and is very important to the rumen. Do not buy a mineral
that does not contain yeast culture. Ours also has Vitamin E
which is expensive, but very important from a health standpoint.
Ranchers tend to read the analysis (%)and they really need to read
the ingredients. Some of the cheaper mineral is cheaper because
the manufacturer doesn't use the same quality of ingredients as
our company does. In fact, we have a slogan that says, "They copied what we put on the tag, they should have copied what we put in the bag."
That kinda says it all.
As for consumption of mineral, one of our customers has a pasture that the cattle won't eat mineral all summer. When they get these cattle home, they keep them separate. The ones that didn't eat if all summer, just gobble the mineral for about a month. They are trying to restock their
system. The other cattle never change their consumption. Interesting, huh?
Some people tend to think if cattle don't eat mineral, it is because they don't need it. Nothing could be further from the truth. If hey don't eat it, something keeps them from eating it. Like alkali soil (we have a formula for cattle in that type of situation); cattle on gumbo like ours are. We have a low-salt mineral for that type of soil. We have over 100 mineral products that can sure make your life easier. We have Hi-Mag mineral; we have mineral with MGA; we have mineral with Dequinate in it; we have mineral with Rumensin and we have it with Bovatech. We have chelated mineral (I don't sell that unless it is to folks who do embryo transplants); we have mineral with CTC (low level antibiotic). You name it, we probably have it. Oh we have mineral with IGR for fly control.
We have a beef devoloper that is excellent for bulls and for replacement heifers and yearling cattle in the feedlot. I sell a lot of that.
We have mineral with Gain-Pro. They sell a lot of that in ND, but I've never sold any of it to my customers. I think we have products that
work better and cost less.
Hope this answered your question, Larrry.
:wink:
Some so-called mineral companies add grain by-products to
their mineral too; to keep the price down. How do you like paying
mineral price for grain?
Or it has too much phos and that makes it very bitter and they
add the flavoring to get the cows to eat mineral whereas without
it, cows wouldn't touch it because it is bitter. Vigortone contains no
grain by-products.
Liquid feed dealers control consumption (or try to) by uppping
the levels of phosphorus to back the cattle off the liquid. It works because the phos is bitter. Too much molasses can upset the rumen and cause
lots of problems.
I can only speak for Vigortone mineral because I have been a
dealer since 1994. We add yeast culture which makes it more
palatable and is very important to the rumen. Do not buy a mineral
that does not contain yeast culture. Ours also has Vitamin E
which is expensive, but very important from a health standpoint.
Ranchers tend to read the analysis (%)and they really need to read
the ingredients. Some of the cheaper mineral is cheaper because
the manufacturer doesn't use the same quality of ingredients as
our company does. In fact, we have a slogan that says, "They copied what we put on the tag, they should have copied what we put in the bag."
That kinda says it all.
As for consumption of mineral, one of our customers has a pasture that the cattle won't eat mineral all summer. When they get these cattle home, they keep them separate. The ones that didn't eat if all summer, just gobble the mineral for about a month. They are trying to restock their
system. The other cattle never change their consumption. Interesting, huh?
Some people tend to think if cattle don't eat mineral, it is because they don't need it. Nothing could be further from the truth. If hey don't eat it, something keeps them from eating it. Like alkali soil (we have a formula for cattle in that type of situation); cattle on gumbo like ours are. We have a low-salt mineral for that type of soil. We have over 100 mineral products that can sure make your life easier. We have Hi-Mag mineral; we have mineral with MGA; we have mineral with Dequinate in it; we have mineral with Rumensin and we have it with Bovatech. We have chelated mineral (I don't sell that unless it is to folks who do embryo transplants); we have mineral with CTC (low level antibiotic). You name it, we probably have it. Oh we have mineral with IGR for fly control.
We have a beef devoloper that is excellent for bulls and for replacement heifers and yearling cattle in the feedlot. I sell a lot of that.
We have mineral with Gain-Pro. They sell a lot of that in ND, but I've never sold any of it to my customers. I think we have products that
work better and cost less.
Hope this answered your question, Larrry.
:wink:badroute
Well-known member
I'm with most of you that mineral is best fed is loose form, BUT there are exceptions to the rule. My cows are run in 6 bunches within a 20 mile radius of my home place with most being within 5-8 miles and only one bunch being the 20 miles away. Five of them bunches get along great on free choice loose mineral and either loose salt or block salt as the mineral I use has no salt. The other bunch that is 20 miles away over the last 20 years we have tried and tried different types of mineral to no avail, they just do not consume it and we feel that they do need some mineral. THis bunch of cows are ran in a community pasture with another neighbor and we decided to try the #7 OLS blocks this year with free choice salt blocks. They are fly-control and have a decent mineral paskage in them with 8% protein. This is the only time that we have been able to get them to consume anything so we are somewhat happy with them other than we would rather feed mineral due to the cost. But on the other hand we sure hated dumping out $30 worth of wet crusty mineral every so often.
Grassfarmer
Well-known member
That was a good 20 year trial badroute - did you suffer from poorer health, lower conception etc on this group that didn't eat the minerals all those years? Was it a noticable difference and if so did the grass quality/quantity also differ? I'd be real interested to know how this experiment went.
Faster horses
Well-known member
What did you feed them the rest of the year, badroute?
And how much mineral did they consume then?
We have found that cattle that get mineral only part of the year
will eat the same amount of mineral in 6 months as they will in 12.
And how much mineral did they consume then?
We have found that cattle that get mineral only part of the year
will eat the same amount of mineral in 6 months as they will in 12.
Larrry
Well-known member
FH, that is the best I have ever gotten to that question from people in the mineral circles. I agree with much you have said, so many people are peddlers and are only after our dollar not at all interested in having our cows profitable
badroute
Well-known member
For Grassfarmer:
We did always have lower conception over there although the grass was usually some of the best we had since it is a BLM pasture and we never stocked it fully. The calves never seemed to be affected much as they were usaully some of the heaviest in the fall of the year. The cows always looked good but you could always bank on 10% open compared with the rest @ 3-4%.
For Fasterhorses:
This is only a six month allotment we usually go over the 25th of May and come back the 5th or 10th of October. The other six months they are with the other cows around the home place and I never really notice any huge swings in mineral consumption. They are by themselves for about two weeks as I drop them off in pastures on the way home, they do eat a little more mineral then but is nothing outrageous.
One a side note we are gonna try putting a little mineral out here in the next week or so. Last fall we drilled a well and put in a pipeline so we have a different water source other than the springs and dam. Some of the consumption problems may have stemmed from the water at the time.
We did always have lower conception over there although the grass was usually some of the best we had since it is a BLM pasture and we never stocked it fully. The calves never seemed to be affected much as they were usaully some of the heaviest in the fall of the year. The cows always looked good but you could always bank on 10% open compared with the rest @ 3-4%.
For Fasterhorses:
This is only a six month allotment we usually go over the 25th of May and come back the 5th or 10th of October. The other six months they are with the other cows around the home place and I never really notice any huge swings in mineral consumption. They are by themselves for about two weeks as I drop them off in pastures on the way home, they do eat a little more mineral then but is nothing outrageous.
One a side note we are gonna try putting a little mineral out here in the next week or so. Last fall we drilled a well and put in a pipeline so we have a different water source other than the springs and dam. Some of the consumption problems may have stemmed from the water at the time.
krt966
Member
Now for my ideas:every little region of the world is diiferent.Different soil types and water types require different minerals or either lack or have a surplus of them. Therefore one bag or block wont solve the problem all over the world. Always rely on the older folks for experience and knowledge and never be afraid to do some research on your own and always keep an open mind.Thats all i got to say about that.
Faster horses
Well-known member
Badroute, Vigortone will test customer's grass and water to
find out if there is a tie-up. We had sick calves for 8 years in
Western Montana so we left. No one knew what the problem was.
We doctored 95% of the calves. We had bought some registered
cows from over by Bozeman and the first one of them the calf got
sick, and from t hen on for 8 years our calves got sick. We'd doctor
them several times and with everything from dog medicine (Clavamox) '
liquid pig medicine. We were not on a mineral program to speak of,
but we contacted veterinarians (who sold us more medicine), feed
dealers and universities with no real answer.
When we turned the
calves out, we'd really have to watch them. When we got them
home in the fall and on the hay meadows, they'd get pneumonia.
After we got here, the first year 1993, the calves got sick, same
as before. We knew a fella from Glendive that was a Vigortone
dealer at that time, so we called him and he called the Area Sales
Manager in Miles City. He came down and he just about fell out
of the pickup--it was so obvious to him we had a copper deficiency.
The cows all had red up by their withers!! He took pictures and now uses them as 'before Vigortone and after Vigortone'. Our cows are BLACK, BLACK now.
What we found out years later, is the water in W. Montana contains sulphates and we had no immune system working in our cattle. That's why we had to doctor them so much. If cattle have a good immune system they should respond to one treatment. If anyone would ever
have told us we would have 100% calf crop, I'd have gotten hysterical.
But we have had that, and more than once. Most years we don't have to doctor ANY calves. Even this year, in this horrible spring, we doctored one.
And we only lost a calf that the cow laid on or stepped on. We used to hold our breath because we knew we were in for it; but now we don't worry about it.
We are on gumbo and the cows don't eat the required amount of mineral during the summer. We keep it out at all times, and the calves sure
do eat it. It helps their rumen so they can digest the forage better and that is why you will see 30 additional pounds on your calves the first year you use it. So, with the added weight and not having to doctor much of anything; Mr. FH would not ranch without feeding mineral.
But read the labels not just % and know what you are buying.
You don't want grain by products, for sure.
Look at the particle size, big particles can't be utilized by the cow
as easy as finer particles. There is so much that goes into a
quality mineral. We have many feed dealers around here that try to sell theirs, saying "It's just like Vigortone, only cheaper." That is just not so. :?
One of our customers decided to try it and he called them up after a couple weeks and made them come and get it. He said, "You said this
was just like Vigortone. It doesn't even come close."
I don't want anyone to think I'm bragging. I'm telling this because it is
a good company with a superior product. I get nothing out of it
if someone out of my area buys Vigortone. Nothing in it for me,
except I know what we went through and I thought if I could help
one person, it would be worth it.
And Larrry, thank you.
I know exactly what you mean about peddlers. I was taught from
the first not to be a feed salesman, but to be a company rep.
We've lived it, I'm passionate about it because it means a great deal
to me to help others. It's not the money, its selling them something I
know will work, because it worked for us. We have a loyal following
because the product is so good, not because people like us. They
like the product. and it makes them money.
krt966-Good point. For instance, Texas is different than Montana.
Vigortone Area Sales managers take grass samples all over. They
know what will work in certain areas. They also will make a custom mix
if there isn't the right formula in a stock mineral.
Me being passionate about this subject is why I get so long-winded. :shock:
find out if there is a tie-up. We had sick calves for 8 years in
Western Montana so we left. No one knew what the problem was.
We doctored 95% of the calves. We had bought some registered
cows from over by Bozeman and the first one of them the calf got
sick, and from t hen on for 8 years our calves got sick. We'd doctor
them several times and with everything from dog medicine (Clavamox) '
liquid pig medicine. We were not on a mineral program to speak of,
but we contacted veterinarians (who sold us more medicine), feed
dealers and universities with no real answer.
When we turned the
calves out, we'd really have to watch them. When we got them
home in the fall and on the hay meadows, they'd get pneumonia.
After we got here, the first year 1993, the calves got sick, same
as before. We knew a fella from Glendive that was a Vigortone
dealer at that time, so we called him and he called the Area Sales
Manager in Miles City. He came down and he just about fell out
of the pickup--it was so obvious to him we had a copper deficiency.
The cows all had red up by their withers!! He took pictures and now uses them as 'before Vigortone and after Vigortone'. Our cows are BLACK, BLACK now.
What we found out years later, is the water in W. Montana contains sulphates and we had no immune system working in our cattle. That's why we had to doctor them so much. If cattle have a good immune system they should respond to one treatment. If anyone would ever
have told us we would have 100% calf crop, I'd have gotten hysterical.
But we have had that, and more than once. Most years we don't have to doctor ANY calves. Even this year, in this horrible spring, we doctored one.
And we only lost a calf that the cow laid on or stepped on. We used to hold our breath because we knew we were in for it; but now we don't worry about it.
We are on gumbo and the cows don't eat the required amount of mineral during the summer. We keep it out at all times, and the calves sure
do eat it. It helps their rumen so they can digest the forage better and that is why you will see 30 additional pounds on your calves the first year you use it. So, with the added weight and not having to doctor much of anything; Mr. FH would not ranch without feeding mineral.
But read the labels not just % and know what you are buying.
You don't want grain by products, for sure.
Look at the particle size, big particles can't be utilized by the cow
as easy as finer particles. There is so much that goes into a
quality mineral. We have many feed dealers around here that try to sell theirs, saying "It's just like Vigortone, only cheaper." That is just not so. :?
One of our customers decided to try it and he called them up after a couple weeks and made them come and get it. He said, "You said this
was just like Vigortone. It doesn't even come close."
I don't want anyone to think I'm bragging. I'm telling this because it is
a good company with a superior product. I get nothing out of it
if someone out of my area buys Vigortone. Nothing in it for me,
except I know what we went through and I thought if I could help
one person, it would be worth it.
And Larrry, thank you.
I know exactly what you mean about peddlers. I was taught from
the first not to be a feed salesman, but to be a company rep.
We've lived it, I'm passionate about it because it means a great deal
to me to help others. It's not the money, its selling them something I
know will work, because it worked for us. We have a loyal following
because the product is so good, not because people like us. They
like the product. and it makes them money.
krt966-Good point. For instance, Texas is different than Montana.
Vigortone Area Sales managers take grass samples all over. They
know what will work in certain areas. They also will make a custom mix
if there isn't the right formula in a stock mineral.
Me being passionate about this subject is why I get so long-winded. :shock:
MN Farm Girl
Well-known member
That's alright Faster Horses. I greatly appreciate all of your imput and knowledge. Now I have learned many things from this short thread.!!
RobertMac
Well-known member
I quit feeding loose mineral...but then I have never fed blocks.
For me, it's a matter of adapting the cattle to the environment instead of adapting the environment to the cattle.
Grassfarmer, health has been good...cow conception good...heifer conception has been poor(~50%), but was much better this year(~80%). I think a closed herd is starting to pay benefits...besides the low input cost(100% forage). But then I wouldn't advise anyone to do what I'm doing.
Badroute, did the replacements for the 20 year group come from heifers from that group?
FH, I promised myself I would stay out of mineral discussions...sorry.
For me, it's a matter of adapting the cattle to the environment instead of adapting the environment to the cattle.
Grassfarmer, health has been good...cow conception good...heifer conception has been poor(~50%), but was much better this year(~80%). I think a closed herd is starting to pay benefits...besides the low input cost(100% forage). But then I wouldn't advise anyone to do what I'm doing.
Badroute, did the replacements for the 20 year group come from heifers from that group?
FH, I promised myself I would stay out of mineral discussions...sorry.
Faster horses
Well-known member
That's okay Kit Pharo, I forgive you.
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :nod: :gag: :wave:
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :nod: :gag: :wave:
Maybe we're just lucky here, trace mineralized blocks is all we seem to have to use. Perhaps most of the required nutrients are available naturally. The facts are that we have fed loose mineral custom mixed for our area and found no difference. Well, other than price :wink: Our conception rates are very good considering range conditions and bull power, and sickness is rare. A cancer eye every four or five years for example. I can't for the life of me see a requirement for expensive mineral at this time. Which isn't to say that there aren't places and conditions where it wouldn't be advantageous, but for this place it appears not to be. Whatever works for your operation.
In my experience black cows tend to require a bit more input and more work, perhaps mineral is one more example to prove this theory true :wink:
In my experience black cows tend to require a bit more input and more work, perhaps mineral is one more example to prove this theory true :wink:
PATB
Well-known member
The main challenge we have in Maine is selenium. I have not seen vigertone advertized in my area. The majority of minerals available are named brands with grain products which does not work for my market of grass fed animals. The biggest challenge is the cows need to eat it or you have wasted your money.