Old Time Values

[Faster horses]

Reader 2, with all due respect, where you live you aren't very likely to
see conservatives in bunches.

 

[mp.freelance]

Reader 2, with all due respect, where you live you aren't very likely to
see conservatives in bunches.

But do you really think your view of conservatism is the same as everyone else's, FH? Most of the people on this forum consider themselves conservative, but the general sentiment here is against illegal immigration. However, the "conservative elite" in the form of large corporations and free-market think tanks are very supportive of illegal immigration. In fact, agricultural interests in many areas are also very supportive of amnesty. Who's the conservative? I don't know about the social climate where R2 lives, but you're probably generalizing. Most of the growers I meet 10 minutes outside Portland are conservative. If I go downtown, chances are I'll meet liberals. So is my area conservative or liberal? I don't mean to argue with you, but I saw a very interesting map of the red/blue divide - not by state, but by county. I'll try to track it down, because the results are surprising. There's plenty of red in the blue states, and vice-versa. And, more often than not, a fair share of purple too.

 

[theHiredMansWife]

I, on the other hand, live in an extremely conservative part of the country and I don't run into this kind of nonsense anywhere but on this forum, either.

Soapweed I am a liberal and nothing you said applies to me

well I keep pointing out that I'm a moderate, but Soapweed has told me many times that I'm a liberal... yet his definitions don't apply to me either.

Because they still vote for the same liberal Dems that shove all that crap down our throats. Maybe someone can explain that?

I'm curious what makes you think you know how people vote... :?
Myself, I've actually voted Republican about as often as I have Democrat. The nature of my area, afterall, is that Republicans are much more likely to run for offices.

As far as getting a yearly paycheck from Uncle Sam, I don't. We have no CRP land, and get no crop subsidies.

So what do you think Soapweed, are subsidies a government handout (and I mean annual, regular payments, not disaster relief)? I mean, shoot, WIC, FoodStamps, EIC, etc. are all available to people who are working...

think the point is that liberal and conservative are very narrow categories, and people seldom fit into any one of them perfectly.

I think you're completey right mp. Like I said, most polls find that the vast majority of people are actually pretty moderate. Middle of the road. But those partisan teams just don't divide up as well with all those pesky moderates. So we're going to put them on teams whether they like it or not! :roll:

85% of people think our elected officials should be voting beyond party lines, guys. People are sick of the partisanship.

 

[theHiredMansWife]

There's plenty of red in the blue states, and vice-versa. And, more often than not, a fair share of purple too.

This is my favorite link for the "purple states":
http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/
(My part of Nebraska is almost solid red :lol: )

 

[IL Rancher]

Illinois got a lot more red in 2004 compared to 2000... I think cook county went Kerry by 1.2 million or something like that and he carried the whole state by 500k... I think... So the whole state looks like this democratic bastion when it is reallly Chicago... For years the color counties always swung the state Republican but they aren't as republican as they used t be thus, the state goes Blue.. Problem living in a state so dominated by one population center.


I've run into plenty arch conservatives and ultra liberals in this fine state... Some in the same family... Always... interesting..

 

[RoperAB]

I apologize to LB.

Prove your assertion that liberalism is non-productive. Good luck with that.

Prove that all liberals belong to the groups you attacked. That's impossible because most liberals could care less about PETA or the spotted owl. In fact most liberals think PETA is a riculous joke. They make me sick personally. I wish they would put so much energy into protecting children and public health and research into disease... I have run into these types in the BSE arena, and their motivations are confused and they are naive. I am not talking about the Humane Society which in my mind plays an important role whether you agree with everything they believe or do or not.

Rcalf is liberal
Read their web site!
Its not only because of how they want to control which Americans can own cattle and left wing stuff like that but its the classic Liberal mentality that we are all victims. We are all helpless and oh my God we need the rcalf union to save us from the conspiracy of the big bad businesses that really control everything.
RCalf lives off of doom and gloom. If its bad news for cattle producers its good news for rcalf.

 

[jigs]

So what do you think Soapweed, are subsidies a government handout (and I mean annual, regular payments, not disaster relief)? I mean, shoot, WIC, FoodStamps, EIC, etc. are all available to people who are working...

.

so now disaster relief is not a hand out??? of that big 9K you cry foul about, 60% was disaster assistance. we got flooded out in early june, then baked the rest of the summer, so we recieved drought and flood assistance in the same year!

not that I need to explain myself to you, but I pay 4000 in irrigation tax each year, and the last 4 I recieved either 1/4 or less of my allotment. this is due to Nebraska being asses in governing drilling and pumping on the Republican River. If Harlan County lake would ever fill again I would get my full amount of water and the govt. money would fall way back to basicly covering my taxes on the irrigation.


I am in my early 30's getting started in this whole rig-a-ma-roll and that govt. check is making a difference between me living my dream, and just working for a farmer/rancher. I am doing things here that the older guys say I am a fool, much like they called Noah a fool, I will just keep plugging away and wait for the echos of distant thunder! there may be room on my boat, but right now I am wondering.....how long can you treadwater?

 

[Faster horses]

I sell advertising for the local newspaper. I ran into a very interesting
comment while calling on the owner of a local retail store.
He had a chip on his shoulder for some reason that day and he wanted
a really small ad with a lot of copy. I tried to talk to him about spending
an extra $15 and going for a larger ad.

"Listen here," he said. "I make the decisions around here. I don't get
no government check to help me out."

I took the ad the way he wanted went back to the paper and told my
boss about what happened. I related to her that had I owned the paper
I would have tossed the ad down on his desk and would have told
him to keep the ad because he needed the money more than I did.

Funny thing, all the farmers in this area shopped in his store since it
was the only one like it in town. I wonder if he ever thought of the
trickle down effect and that he was getting his share of the "government
pie."

I was so mad, I never darkened his doorstep again.

He has long since been out of business.

 

[IL Rancher]

they published all of the local farmers subsidies a few years back and people were complaining and such about how much farmer brown made in government payments, CRP, LDP, disaster and the like... A lot of the farmers were ticked off because they felt it was private business and all the like...I looked at the records for this farm and how much they had brought in over the 10 years or so that were published... Shame they didn't choose to publish the property taxes that were paid at the same time...

 

[Frankk]

Soapweed I am a liberal and nothing you said applies to me. You are just repeating what you are told to think and say by people like Rush. BTW get er done guy have you got er done without government help I have.

Not that I particularly think it is any of your business, Frankk, but I will answer your question. Twenty-five years ago on a different ranch than where we now live, I did get some government assistance on some cross fence that I would not have put in otherwise. It was to be a three-year deal, and after putting in two years worth of cross fence, I could see we were not grazing much more efficiently than before. I told the guy in charge that I would save them the money on the third year, and me the hassle. He about didn't go along with me not doing it, but I told him we were considering trading that ranch for another, and that whoever would buy the present ranch probably didn't want a fence in that spot anyway. He finally relented. I decided then and there that I didn't want to be under any obligation to do things "the government way" after that.

In more recent times, we got completely hailed out one year and suffered a bad drought the next. I sold way down on cattle, and had to pay a lot of additional income taxes because of this. Our county was eligible for some feed assistance, so I dipped into the public trough, mainly to get back money that I had already given up in the form of extra taxes. The government paid half the cost of additional hay that was purchased. From a common sense point of view, the whole country would have been better off had the government just stayed completely out of the fray. Hay that would normally sell for $50 per ton suddenly became worth $100 per ton. The rancher still paid $50 per ton and the government paid $50 per ton. The only real benefactors were anyone who had hay for sale. Had the normal laws of supply and demand taken effect, and the government stayed out of it, the $50 hay would have risen to about $75 per ton. I would rather have just paid the $75 per ton, and not be accused of sucking the government's teat.

As far as getting a yearly paycheck from Uncle Sam, I don't. We have no CRP land, and get no crop subsidies. Our only income is derived from the sale of cattle, that eat the grass and hay produced on this ranch. I do pasture cattle out with a couple neighbors, and do buy some hay every year. We spend a lot of money locally, and help to keep the wheels of America turning.

Now, Frankk, let's hear a little about how you do business.

Soapweed as I said, I have never gone to the govenment for help. I go to the Lord Jesus and it is absolutely amazing to me how well this has worked out. By putting the Lord first I have been rewarded far more than my mental ability would have allowed otherwise. sence getting this computer I have found out how little I know about cattle, bull selection comes to mind, however one Feb. steer calf brought 1100.00 dollars after backgrounding last fall. dumb luck you think? Basically how I do business is no planning, no ability only trust and faith.

 

[jigs]

they published all of the local farmers subsidies a few years back and people were complaining and such about how much farmer brown made in government payments, CRP, LDP, disaster and the like... A lot of the farmers were ticked off because they felt it was private business and all the like...I looked at the records for this farm and how much they had brought in over the 10 years or so that were published... Shame they didn't choose to publish the property taxes that were paid at the same time...

the ewg webite is famous for printing what farmer made how much when and how..... but they never show the increase in expenses, and the decrease in commodity prices.

if they think it is public record to show everyones farm payments, then it should be totally equal to show the welfare recipients and the amount they recieved.......and after that column, show the days employed while recieving said money!

 

[IL Rancher]

Jigs, the computer litercy of this area is not high but one of the newspapers published the numbers.. They do it every year... Really, if we stopped being so darn productive that the LDP's didn't get kicked in every year the amount of aid would be so, so much lower... the DCP's and CCP's and such...

The subsidies are growing as a PR nightmare... Especially wehn people look at how much ADM and some of the larger cotton places are getting... Gets people all bothered.

 

[passin thru]

If the government issues reports that dictate price.........is it the farmers fault that prices go down due to theese reports.

If the government shuts down exports for political reason is it the farmers responsibility to take the brunt of these actions.

 

[Soapweed]

Soapweed as I said, I have never gone to the govenment for help. I go to the Lord Jesus and it is absolutely amazing to me how well this has worked out. By putting the Lord first I have been rewarded far more than my mental ability would have allowed otherwise. sence getting this computer I have found out how little I know about cattle, bull selection comes to mind, however one Feb. steer calf brought 1100.00 dollars after backgrounding last fall. dumb luck you think? Basically how I do business is no planning, no ability only trust and faith.

Well, Frankk, having just returned from our Sunday evening church and having heard the pastor's usual good sermon, I am in a fairly mellow mood. What you just said makes me think considerably more highly of you than I have in the past. Before, I thought you were just another Liberal, but now I realize that you have your priorities in the right place. My opinion of you has risen dramatically. Keep your faith in the One that really matters, and things will turn out just fine. My hat is off to you.

 

[theHiredMansWife]

Especially wehn people look at how much ADM and some of the larger cotton places are getting... Gets people all bothered.

Do you think they should be?

EWG's database exists for the purpose of getting caps set. And it seems to be working. there is ever-increasing pressure for capping of subsidies. BTW, property tax prices are published in my local paper--if you're late. :wink:

so now disaster relief is not a hand out

Of course it is.

No more or less so than the hurricane victims getting disaster relief.
I just narrowed the discussion parameters for the sake of argument.

and I see my question was very conveniently ignored, anyway.

But that's been my whole point in mentioning the double standard of subsidies.


What makes someone's subsidy payment so much more acceptable than a single mom working her way through college on work-study and taking ADC, WIC, and anything else she can get in order to pay the bills?

 

[theHiredMansWife]

PS: That's just one "value". I'm still waiting for Tap's list, so we can debunk some more.

But, I'm off to Bible School for the day. Wish me luck.
My church's 5th/6th graders are well-behaved angels, but those Lutheran kids (we combine to have enough bodies) are just heathens!





:wink:

 

[RoperAB]

Liberals tend to look for government to solve their problems.
Conservatives tend to look at government as the problem.

Really I dont chew to much about welfare.
Example if some woman is getting the crap beat out of her by her husband she should leave and take the kids.
If a young girl gets pregnate I would rather her keep the child and go on welfare for a while than to abort.
Part of the problem with welfare is that the way its set up is that it takes the dignity from the person that recieves it and it turns into a vicous cycle of dependence.
I think the real drain on society is useless beaurocrats that are not really needed.
Like instead of having ten government beaurocracies that basically do the same thing why not only have one?
How about just having a garanteed minimun income for everybody and if they can make more income above that, dont punish them.
Look at Workers Comp. They would rather hire ten beaurocrats to fight the injuried worker that they are sapposed to be helping instead of just doing their mandate and the cheapest thing of just paying the injured worker his claim!

 

[Faster horses]

"guaranteed minimum income for everyone"...that's a scary thought.
Where did I get the idea you are a conservative? :wink: How about an INCENTIVE to work? That seems a much better method to me.

As a salesperson I get paid by commission only. That's a real incentive to get off your butt. Hustle or don't get paid. Not too many would go for that deal because they like the guarantee of what they are worth per hour. That's just how they have been taught. I'd never work in sales on anything but straight commission but some are scared to death of it.

Funny, you bring up the word beauracracy. I've been thinking the about beaurocrats and I never think about it without thinking how Lyndon Johnson was the one president that accelerated beauracracy to huge heights in Washington, D.C.

 

[IL Rancher]

DO I think people should be bothered by the amounts that ADM is getting and Riceland farms and the like? Or do I think the numbers should be published?

1) I get torn on the ideas of limits to be honest. While I don't like seeing Riceland gettig 15 million last year or 100 million a few years back I don't know about Farmer Brown, whose family runs a large farm, employes several people and says makes 200k off subsidies (not tought, if you have 5000 acres of 200 bushel corn ground last year the LDP would ave been 20cents or more depending on when you did it.. That is 200k pay day + any CCP or DCP payments on top of it... Figure another 100k depending on what their payments are. 10-20 bucks an acre for DCP is not unheard of around here. His family built the place, is family owned and run and contributes a lot of money to the local economy. (Not that ADM doesn't supply a lot of jobs or money to Decateur or other locations).. So, I guess what I am saying is that I am not to say people should be bothered or not, I know I am bothered by the huge numbers but what my neighbors bring in has never bothered me.

2) I am not a huge fan of the Freedom of information act... I know the EWG has its goals of subsidy caps or eliminations but I don't like anyone/thing that's end result is neighbor against neighbor... I understand the goal of angering people to act/write/vote for people who will change this but I think that could have been accomplished with just the the top 10 subsidy getters.. That Jim Smith gets 3000 a year in CRP payments is beyond irrelevant.


There is an article floating around called life after subsidies or something to that affect. IT is about New Zeland after their government yanked out the subsides and what it did to agriculture... Interesting read, makes one thing that in the long term we might be better off without them, of couse the big assumption is that you can surviive the transition. Also, in beef magazine they had a list of states and what would happen to land value if they removed the subsidies.. Hey, if my land value dropped that much maybe my taxes would come down too... Of course, that would be a death kneel to some of these smaller, rural school districts.

 

[RoperAB]

"guaranteed minimum income for everyone"...that's a scary thought.
Where did I get the idea you are a conservative? :wink: How about an INCENTIVE to work? That seems a much better method to me.

As a salesperson I get paid by commission only. That's a real incentive to get off your butt. Hustle or don't get paid. Not too many would go for that deal because they like the guarantee of what they are worth per hour. That's just how they have been taught. I'd never work in sales on anything but straight commission but some are scared to death of it.

Funny, you bring up the word beauracracy. I've been thinking the about beaurocrats and I never think about it without thinking how Lyndon Johnson was the one president that accelerated beauracracy to huge heights in Washington, D.C.

80% of every dollar that is collected in Canada and redistributed by the Federal government gets gobled up by the beaurocrats. Only 20% goes to the people. There has to be a more efficient way.
Im thinking who would want to live off a minimun income? That would be incentive to work?
Example in Alberta we have no provincial dept. With the last budjet surplus they just cut every Albertan (man, women and or child)a check for $400 regardless of their income.
Every new child regardless of their families income in Alberta recieves a $500 taxfree educational saveings grant that goes into their bank account. This is registered and can only be used for post secondary education.
In Alberta people who make roughly less than $34,000 a year do not even pay income tax. The ones that make more than this just pay a small flat tax.
I think half of the success of Alberta is the lack of beaurocrats. LOLs the other half is the lack of regulations.