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Nope Sunshine-did I ever say the bull was Full French-you've questioned the integrity of a breed association-a breeder-a company-now PROVE IT or quit chirping. Surely you don't think bad mouthing another man's breed and his association will help market your hybrids of the heather.
 
No I'm not trying to market my (non-hybrid) cattle but like everyone else I am allowed to express my opinion. You sure seem to enjoy bad-mouthing your competitors misfortune at retailing some mixed up semen though. Kettle, pot, black and all that...
 
I knew about that situation last spring before breeding and never mentioned it-I don't think the industry needs to deal with companies who can't or won't make a bad situation right. I have nothing to defend my company is marketing a REGISTERED PUREBRED BULL-not a semen smoothie with god knows what breeds in it. Now unless you can PROVE anything else but quit chirping. The Pinebank cattle have a place but the whole situation should of been dealt with promptly-squeeky wheel gets the grease and all that!!!!!!!
 
OK. I'm back. :D :D

Isn't that interesting. Small world and all. I have no doubt whatsoever about the integrity of this bull. Brian Kruk has been a well known breeder in this province for a long time now, and has a reputation for raising really good cattle, as well as being a really nice guy. 8)

As a matter of fact, being such a small world, my son is his web designer. http://www.bylivestock.com/kruk/index.php

( Just a little plug there. :wink: :wink: :D :D :D )

This red gene has been around a long time and is popular in Manitoba. They used to be few and far between, but now they are being promoted and well received by people in lots of different breeds. At the moment white calves are being, unfairly in my opinion, discriminated against, and for those of us with a herd of white cows that we are very fond of, a red factor bull is just the answer. We went to Limo bulls to get past the discrimination fact, but the next bull we get will be a red Charolais, in order to keep the Charolais breeding up in our replacements.

This bull is just the kind of bull we would look for. 8) Not this year though, since the "guys" just finished their semen tests, and barring injury, we should be good for this year.
 
Just to chirp in, not that I care too much one way or another, but that bull doesn't show much Charolais breed character at all (even if he were white as a snow storm).
 
nortexsook said:
Just to chirp in, not that I care too much one way or another, but that bull doesn't show much Charolais breed character at all (even if he were white as a snow storm).
Click to expand...

After the Angus and Hereford guys tried to make their cattle look like Continentals, the Charolais guys are trying to make Angus cattle out of theirs. :wink:
 
nortex that is what I was thinking myself. I dont breed Charolais but if I did that bull sure doesnt show any characteristics Id be looking for.
 
His year letter is T so that would make him a two year old this spring-he looks alot like his sire does-I know there are some bigger framed Charolais cows that he'll make look alot better red chars are quite common up here in Canada. I guess if Charolais breed character doesn't include muscling and length then he doesn't show breed character lol. I'd like to see him slicked off out breeding cows that will give a truer picture for sure. He looks interesting but only time will tell-I hate clipping a bulls head by the way.
 
He has some really good parts, im not arguing that at all. Im just saying that I dont see anything about him that I would say relates back to the Charolais cattle. Its pretty obvious that he doesnt have the breed characteristics of the Charolais by the way everyone was guessing different breeds. I just went through a semen companies line up of Charolais bulls and randomly picked bulls and never found one that even is close to similar to this bull. Maybe he is just the extreme of extreme but and example of Charolais breed character he isnt! :wink:
 
You slick him off on pasture and let his hair grow back and he won't look all that far off LT Bluegrass. I'm just curious as to what bull defines Charolais breed character. We could have a fun day in my archives I have 40 years of a'I catalogues-some companies originals it's pretty uinteresting how type and ideal standards change over the years. It would be interesting for everybody to post what they think their breed standard is for Hereford, Angus, Charolais and Simmental. the red bull does have a bit different style but that doesn't make him a different breed or a hybrid. I always compare Red Angus bulls to the old Choctaw Chief 373 bull I always thought he was the standard. In Charolais the old 'B' import Full French bull Bingo Belghaphor tripped my trigger-i'm biased but I think Lad loks like a Hereford bull should as for Black Angus that's a tough one-in the Genex lineup Final Answer pleases my eye as much as any of them. Simmental I'll have to think on it a bit.
 
I agree with you its exactly what one person sees as breed standard. Although Bluegrass and this bull are similar muscle type I see a totally different bone structure to them.

Where does the red gene come from? I mean if I was a Hereford breeder and I got a black baldy calf or a calf that looked crossbred somehow I would sure have a hard time saying he is a purebred. To me I guess I have never seen a red Charolais. I would also think that the red gene somehwere, somehow came from a different breed. Which there is nothing wrong with but it still means that the bull has some mix up somewhere in his family.

:lol:
 
gcreekrch said:
nortexsook said:
Just to chirp in, not that I care too much one way or another, but that bull doesn't show much Charolais breed character at all (even if he were white as a snow storm).
Click to expand...

After the Angus and Hereford guys tried to make their cattle look like Continentals, the Charolais guys are trying to make Angus cattle out of theirs. :wink:
Click to expand...

To be downright honest, I almost hazarded my guess early on which would have been Saler. He's a good bull, though, no matter what color or breed he happens to be.
 
I agree with you Soap. He is a heck of a bull, no doubt. If I was in a commercial operation where I was A.I.ing cows I would try him out! :wink:
 
Alot of the first Full french Cattle weren't totally white-some had some red spots and some were almost buckskin-I imagine reddish individuals were selected against over there-much like red angus were. not sure if 30-40 years of selection for colour would get them as red as that over here or not. Tee Anchor Aiglon was a Full French bull that was spotted like a Simmental. I wish my old boss Bill Hunt was still alive-he had 400 plus Char cows and there were some red ones that had a fair shot of French in them that were quite red he could of told me how they got that way. I know I bought a Hannibal son from him in the early 80's that was pretty dark red. He also had one herd bull we used FCC Rusty that was red way back then to-I don't know if Bill had ever used a solid red breed back in the 60's to get the red in his Chars. Be that as it may even if this young bull had a Red Angus cow back in his pedigree six or seven generations ago her influence would be negligible at best.
 
Purity at the expense of usefullness or having the genetics actually used is not the way the business world works. Quite honestly if I got paid an extra 15 cents for green cattle I would spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to make them green. If we had stated at the beginning that only fullbloods were allowed to be used, there would sure be a lot fewer continental genetics in North America. I am not sure why we think the europeans are so much better at "pure breeding" than us. Quite frankly a visual inspection for entry into the herdbook is a crock. I trust science, pedigrees and performance information a lot further than the traditional approach.
As long as the gene combinations are useful who really cares if the cattle are pure or not. Purebreds are useful for creating crossbreds.
 
My first thought when it was revealed that he was a Charolais was that he really resembled LT Bluegrass too Northern Rancher. Until I saw the type of cattle that Brent Thiel was breeding my image of Charolais cattle was the huge framed elephant type cattle with the big feet and bones that looked like a calving nightmare. That's why I think most people don't think the red calf looks like a Char.

Now tell me this, if a red Char bull was bred to Angus cows wouldn't the calves be black? Black is dominant right, and if so wouldn't that be a cool way to breed half blood black Char cross calves? Unless of course some of your black cows are carrying a red gene you would have the chance of getting some red calves.
 
fter the Angus and Hereford guys tried to make their cattle look like Continentals, the Charolais guys are trying to make Angus cattle out of theirs
Click to expand...

That's funny, because that's exactly what I've been saying about how the Angus have changed lately, that they've been trying to become Charolais with a black paint job. :wink: :D :D :D

As for Charolais character, this bull looks pretty much like most Charolais do around here nowadays. Other than Full French. They have their own look, and it's more like the picture grassfarmer posted.
 
I'm guessing he'd throw alot of straight black calves on black cows-it sounds like he throws alot of red calves on white Charolais cows. I've never been the Brent Thiel's but I've sold alot of semen on bulls the company has leased from him without any customer complaints-I've never met the man but I like his eye for cattle. I saw some baby Bluegrass calves at a customers last week-he calved well and the calves look good. Jim Leachman used to pen his red Angus bulls a bit according to frame size-every time I went to his sale with an exotic breeder looking to 'change' we had to walk away to hell down the line till we found the biggest framed red bulls lol.
 

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