Perspective, reasons you should buy regular goods

[cowzilla]

If organic farms are so inefficient how come the ones in this area make the same Living off smaller land bases than the conventional farms :???: I buy clover seed from an organic farmer who uses crop rotation and mininal till practises to grow good yielding crops. Most of these guys use cows the way we do ,harvesting crops( including weeds) and the fertilizing ( cow pies) to add nutrients back to the soil. If you want to talk about Waste and Harmful To The Enviroment lets talk about the Big Fat Checks I give J.R. SIMPLOT AND SHELL OIL

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I buy clover seed from an organic farmer who uses crop rotation and mininal till practises to grow good yielding crops.

Cowzilla, you just nailed it. A proper crop rotation is probably the single most important part of organic farming. With the influx of sprays and massive doses of fertilizer, farmers have forgotten how to rotate crops through for maximum effect. The best weed killer, bar none, is a heavy crop.

Rod

 

[mrj]

Guess this thread shows the impact of "someone's ox getting gored" often isn't very friendly!

Diamond S CattleCo, you have successfully refuted very little of what was stated as fact in the article. Opinions re. animal care....maybe. Raised questions about residues in milk........maybe. Yet you IMPLY that conventional treatment is based on "poking her full of needles"????

You claims of contamination from factories seems a bit off base, but I offer no proof to the contrary, reminding readers that you offered none in support of your statement. We have read from time to time that total useage of fertilizers and chemicals in consumers yards, gardens and on golf courses and public parks far exceeds that used in agriculture in the USA. AND that home uses is virtually unregulated and certainly not inspected!!!!

Your groups may warn you to keep your promo positive, mine do as well. We do, at times, find it necessary to counter a large number of false statements about conventionally produced food products, written by some who are using helath scare tactics based on something other than fact, to promote organically grown foods.

BTW, we could evaluate peoples comments more accurately if soil types, precipitation amounts and temperature variations by season, in the the poster is living were included. Inputs for organic production and for conventional by advocates of each would be helpful, too. What does it cost in fuel and materials to plant, and till in cover crops, for instance? To add minerals or other ammendments as needed to soils for crops and for animal feed? How much soil testing is needed?

For starters, 'normal' (if there really is such a thing) for my area of western SD is about 14 inches of precip., mostly coming in the May-Sept. growing season (that's for native pasture grasses, NOT gardens mid June-third wk. of Aug. MIGHT be frost free six years out of ten). Temp. ranges have run 85 to 115 with nights seldom cooler than 70 degrees during July. We have had less than average moisture to date, with about 9" so far, but higher than the past several years of drought. Last winter was warmer than normal. Only a few nights during Feb. were lower than -25%, and days were usually above 20%, sometimes in the 40's or more.

Our only crops are grass and hay. Mostly native grasses, with some alfalfa or other hay crops, depending upon available moisture. Our cows graze year round unless hay is covered deeply with snow.....or during this drought, when it would damage the remaining grass to graze it. We put them in our feedlot and fed a ration to maintain body score adequate for the weather and producing a calf. The cows hate it. We hate it. BUT, they looked great, and calved well after going out onto the reserved pastures. Timely rains brought a good start to the grass..........then ended and it is pretty dry till we got .70" of rain last Friday night over much of the ranch.

Ben I, guess we must be fortunate in this area, as I can't imagine anyone giving anyone any hassle over how they choose to operate their land unless they did something that spread something damaging upon the neighbors' land, such as invasive species, etc.

We also were fortunate that most of our land was never farmed and the native grasses were not badly abused. It is difficult to get enough production from our thin, low productivity soils to make it raising cattle, though. More especially since outside money has raised local land prices many times above what agricultural production can pay for land. Taxes follow the land prices here, despite a law requiring land be taxed based on production. That is ignored, it seems.

Kaiser, you would be hard put to find a beef cattle ranch run more naturally than ours, or Sandhuskers, or for that matter, MOST western ranches in the US and probably in Canada. Gets so cold and so hot and so dry most pests and internal bugs just can't last long!

You also would be hard pressed to find a group of cattle producers more dedicated to "making it better" (cattle/beef quality and business climate) than the members of NCBA. We pioneered Beef Quality Assurance classes for cattle producers. We led the battle against e coli. We have been researching CLA and the other fatty acids, including feeding to enhance it, for many years, with some exciting results coming out. And much more. I'm surprised you claim your industry leadership in Canada isn't involved in such research. Are you very sure about that? Or are they prevented from getting into that type of research by finances or regulation?

mrj

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Diamond S CattleCo, you have successfully refuted very little of what was stated as fact in the article.

I offered about as much evidence as the idiot who wrote the article. But lets see if I can throw a little more evidence your way. And since you say that you feel the need to defend your production practices from negative press, you can certainly understand my agitation when an author offers nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion based on a conversation with a single "expert" who obviously knows nothing about organic production values. But, by all means, if you have more evidence to support the author of the article, please present it. The rest of us organic production folks are patiently waiting.

The way I see it, the original author was attempting to make three main points:

1) Organic production is crueler because animals are left to suffer. I know of NO organic producer who won't give their animals antibiotics when they are hurt. Are there some out there? Certainly there are. By the same token, the conventional guy down the road often doesn't give antibiotics either in an attempt to save a buck. MRJ, since you are defending the author, please show me ONE organic production manual that tells the producer to not give antibiotics under any circumstances? Just one MRJ.

2) Organic products are identical. Now c'mon MRJ, even websites that PROMOTE hormones admit there are differences between hormone and non-hormone treated beef and dairy. Where the disagreement between conventional and organic producers comes into play is whether these additional hormones are harmful or not. Given that North Americans for the first time ever are expected to live a shorter lifespan than those born before us, I think anyone can successfully argue that current food products on the shelf are certainly not PROMOTING long life.

But if you don't believe me that hormone products are not identical, heres a few web links:

http://www.beefitswhatsfordinner.com/askexpert/inthenews.asp#qa7
http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/hormones/
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020105/bob13.asp
http://www.healthcoalition.ca/hormones.html

That last one is especially interesting. I've long held that adults can "probably" handle the added hormones in beef and dairy, but raised concerns about what we're stuffing into our children and how its affecting their development. I'm the step-father of a special needs child who suffers from a variety of mental illnesses, and as such, I've read everything I can get my mitts on. In the last 30 years or so, mental illness in children, based on a percentage of children born is on the rise. I don't have that book handy to give exact quotes on percentages, but its in the hundreds. Hundreds of percent! Why do you think this is, MRJ? Whats changed in the last thirty years to cause perfectly functional adults to suddenly start banging out mentally ill children?

Would you like me to go on? According to Google, there are 1,440,000 articles on the net. In every last HONEST one of them, even the ones that support added hormones, they will tell you flat out that there are additional hormones to be found in beef and dairy animals given hormone injection or implants.

3) Organic farms are less productive and inefficient. I just gave you an example of this years hay yields from organic versus conventionally farmed hay lands. But heres a few links:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/organic/041903_organic.cfm
http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/news/ng.asp?n=78222-organic-conventional-farming-supply
http://www.ashanet.org/projects-new/documents/579/conv_vs_org.pdf

The last link is also especially interesting. In there we have studies that show organic production being anywhere between 90% of conventional up to 200% MORE than conventional farming. There are also numerous mentions that organic farms require LESS energy. The author stated some bullshit quote that said organic farms required 6 TIMES more diesel? How? How is this possible. The basis of organic farming is minimizing inputs. We're not spraying. We're not spreading fertilizer. Zero till is in heavy use with organic producers. How the hell are we using more fuel?

So there you go MRJ. Properly refuted. Feel free to post evidence that supports the idiot who authored that trash.

Rod

 

[Anonymous]

Yep --Same-o NCBA folks I've dealt with for years....Promoting the corporate takeover of all Agriculture and the death of the family farm/ranch (unless the family name is Turner or Tyson)...

If it wasn't developed by NCBA's checkoff, so they can use it to advertise and promote NCBA, then it don't work and is no good They're Corporate sponsorship and menage a trois with AMI/USDA has been one of the biggest anchors in the butt holding back the US cattle industry for years...

 

[ranch hand]

We pioneered Beef Quality Assurance classes for cattle producers. We led the battle against e coli. We have been researching CLA and the other fatty acids, including feeding to enhance it, for many years, with some exciting results coming out. And much more. I'm surprised you claim your industry leadership in Canada isn't involved in such research. Are you very sure about that? Or are they prevented from getting into that type of research by finances or regulation?

mrj

MRJ....would this be the NCBA or the Check-off doing the research?

 

[Sandhusker]

MRJ, "You also would be hard pressed to find a group of cattle producers more dedicated to "making it better" (cattle/beef quality and business climate) than the members of NCBA. We pioneered Beef Quality Assurance classes for cattle producers. We led the battle against e coli. We have been researching CLA and the other fatty acids, including feeding to enhance it, for many years, with some exciting results coming out. And much more...."

Why did NCBA go to all the fuss and waste all those checkoff dollars if they also support a "free trade" that just throws our doors open to countries with an "anything goes" policy?

 

[rkaiser]

The best place to have environmental issues dealt with is right on the farm MRJ, and I don't dispute the fact that you and old Soapweed are likely two of the best protectors of the land, South of the 49th. That is more often than not the case up here as well. Our chairman of the ABP is a hell of a guy at home. He is one of the most environmentally friendly ranchers I know and lives in a delicate area that demands his attention.

The problem that this man has is likely the same as your problem. He does not want to have much to do with the industry after he has done what his father and his father before him did. However he does want to have a voice. Even though that voice may be muffled by his fear of those who control the industry once his calves leave his ranch. His fear of causing those who control the price of his calves any discomfort is pathetic to say the least.

There is no unity with feedlots and packers - only three separate entities. One with, what I will agree to be the most ethics. (Which includes you and old Soapy) One that is somewhere in the middle - defending things like hormonal growth promotants for their financial survival. And one who sees profit above and beyond anything else, and far above any financial regard for the two below.

As far as CLA MRJ. Yes the ABP/CCA sent a delegation (paid for with checkoff dollars) to the same meeting that my wife and I attended (on our own dime). They listened to the same message as we did about the problems with excessive grain feeding and even a product mentioned by name - "monensin". Did they take the message back home - or share it with their buddies at the NCBA office. Well I guess you would know.

Come now MRJ - this message about CLA would cause changes to our industry that would affect the two sectors above you and I and remember where those two sectors stand on the issue of profit vs. ethics.

Why would you say that it was the one hlllbilly who paid his own way in the door who is now taking on a research project with the folks who ran the conference and not the ABP/CCA/NCBA themselves?

Do you know how simple it is to make changes in the levels of CLA in a ruminant diet? You must since it has been studied by the NCBA for years. It is as simple as adding some oilseeds (15% according to some studies), throwing out monensin (which destroys positive bacteria in the rumen), and dropping silage in favor of dry or grass forage. Grass fed cattle are optimum CLA producers, but it can be altered in cattle that you and I choose not to feed on our pastures. Sounds like a pretty "natural" approach to me.

It's time for the NCBA and our ABP/CCA to grow some balls and finally admit that there is no integration in our industry and the only competition that is left is the competition for profit in one single steer from three separate groups. Other than those who retain ownership and have had their eyes opened by experience.

Should get blasted for preaching for that one !

 

[katrina]

Should get blasted for preaching for that one !

Randy, I don't know why anyone would put you in their blasting sights, when in fact their is some truth to what you are saying..... IMHO.. Even a little free choice hay with high grain intake makes a world of differance... again IMHO....

 

[Jason]

Economics dictate what can and can't be done by the cattle industry.

Silage is a huge mainstay of the Alberta feedlot industry. Try to convert all or even a large percentage of silage fed cattle to dry forage and it would break the feeders.

Those same silage crops are mainly fertilized by manure, basically an organic practice, monitored by soil testing and nutrient loading guidelines.

I know of some feedlots starting to use compost machines to improve the quality and stability of their manure.

Through the BSE debacle, most feedlots have realized cattle finish as well or even better on diets of 65% grain or less compared to 80% before that time.

This isn't a black and white issue, going orgainic has some benefits yet has drawbacks. To tout it as the saving grace of ag in North America is as foolish as saying it will be the demise of ag.

Current conventional soil farming methods are not sustainable. Fully organic methods are very difficult to sustain economically.

Most rancher types never use a drop of spray or a pound of fertilizer, yet because they implant their calves they are consdered conventional. Their adjustment is/will be next to nothing, but economics will dictate.

Anyone who takes a position at either edge of this debate is not looking at the big picutre. Small operations that are making a go of things organic are not the same as the entire industry changing. Most of the small places have niches or other income to survive.

 

[RobertMac]

Randy, contact this guy if you haven't already. I think he has done more unbiased research on CLA and the effects of forage raised cattle than anyone in the USA university system. (Much of his work is with dairy because it gave quicker 'cause and effect' results) He mentioned some of these "feeding" studies for CLA and his belief was that naturally produced CLA from chlorophyll had more potent health effects. I asked him what meat and dairy products he bought for his family...he said it had to be 100% forage raised. That was good enough for me! Period! End of story!

I hate to break it to folks, but grain is not a natural feed for cattle and its use has repercussions.

Should get blasted for preaching for that one !

Dr. Tilak Dhiman (Nutritional)
Utah State University
4815 Old Main Hill

Logan, UT 84322
435-797-2155
http://www.usu.edu

 

[rkaiser]

Thanks Robert - I contact him.

Jason - Isn't it amazing how the main defense of conventional agriculture is economics while the economic reality of farming has declined for ALL of those who participate in conventional agriculture.

 

[Northern Rancher]

There are still alot of acres being farmed that could be in grass for sure-weaned calves in finishing lots are really a quite recent phenomenon if they were weaned-wintered-then grassed on the ranch they were born on alot of antibiotic use wouldn't have to take place. Yearlings going into the feedlot are pretty healthy creatures for the most part. Once we got our vaccination protocol up to snuff we've pretty much eliminated it at our place-the feedlot can't belive how manty pens we've fed with a zero percent treatment rate.

 

[Ben Roberts]

Ben I, guess we must be fortunate in this area, as I can't imagine anyone giving anyone any hassle over how they choose to operate their land unless they did something that spread something damaging upon the neighbors' land, such as invasive species, etc.mrj

Maxine, I live in a very small county, the only difference between the telephone book and the cemetery, are the first names. Change from anything conventional is going to meet with some opposition in this county. First of all we have a local guy (and a friend of mine) that has a aerial spraying business, he and others thought I was going to put him out of business by organic farming. Another local farmer went to the county extension agent, and said, "we must stop him from doing this, if he starts this, there will be others." Now, I find this a little ironic, because this same farmer, has ask me what steps you go through to put your land into organic production. I more than likely will drop my organic certification, as more and more multi-national corporations are getting into organic food production, and the creditabilty of organic is being degraded, by these multi-national corporations and their influence within the USDA to have rules changed so they may qualify.

Also, I manage my weed population better than most conventional farmers do, in this area.



Best Regards
Ben Roberts

 

[RobertMac]

I more than likely will drop my organic certification, as more and more multi-national corporations are getting into organic food production, and the creditabilty of organic is being degraded, by these multi-national corporations and their influence within the USDA to have rules changed so they may qualify.

I went to some early meetings on the organic standards with USDA officials. This was the concern of the established organic producers. What they wanted was for the USDA to set up a test protocol for the product, not a production protocol that could be manipulated. We all know who won that battle. That is why I never pursued organic. The savvy, educated consumer will search out producers like Ben and myself. The word in the "true organic" community is to buy local, not the multi-national's implied 'organic'.

 

[PORKER]

Organic Food and Farming provides an overview of the science showing that:
Organic often tastes better
Organic produce contains, on average, 30 percent higher levels of antioxidants
Organic farming can cut mycotoxin risk by over 50 percent
Organic food dramatically reduces pesticide exposure
Organic farms typically use less energy including fertilizer

 

[mrj]

Kaiser, are you sure you read the article posted by Soapweed, or are you confusing it with something else????

The lady stated whe wants food to be plentiful, affordable, and SAFE. She believes, and quotes a Cornell U. professor among other sources, to support her belief, that "organically produced" well may be more of a marketing ploy than a valid reason to pay so much more for organic than for conventionally produced foods.

You seem to have a bur about her comment re. animals not treated with antibiotics when needed. Are you telling us that there are NO organic producers who will simply let an animal suffer till it recovers on it's own rather than putting dollars worth of money into an animal that he knows he will get far less money for when he must sell it as conventionally raised? I'm not saying that is the usual thing, but you are implying it doesn't happen, which I can't believe.

The author criticizes rumor and misleading statements or implications about conventional produced foods used as a marketing tactic by SOME sellers of organic products. She points out that there may not be so much difference as some claim between the two. I believe that is verifiable, but may not be the case in all situations.

I'm sorry for you and anyone who has family members suffering from illnesses. HOwever, I do not buy into ALL the possible environmental causes attributed by SOME. You ignore the fact that in recent years many parents used alcohol and other drugs prior to conception and during pregnancy. You forget that through medical miracles, many babies that previously would not have lived due to birth defects, or desperately premature births. Some of those babies have problems, possibly making it APPEAR that people have "suddenly start[ed] banging out mentally ill children". That is only a sample. Do you want me to go on?

Your comments on yields of organic vs conventional farming omits comparisons of soils, precip., differing weather conditions from one year to another, ditto insect or other problems. You also seem to imply that ALL organic producers and supporters are honest and accurate and that their/your opinions should be taken as gospel, while conventional farmers and promoters are dishonest, or at best, mis-informed. Why do you do that?

I have NO PROBLEM with anyone wanting to use organic or natural practices, only with those who are using the fear factor to sell their products and to convince the consumers that the extra prices are necessary and justified for the health and well being of families and the earth.

OT, Yep...same old OT...any lie you can think up to slam NCBA! What ridiculous allegations. There is no substance, whatever. Your hatred is counterproductive and will surely come back to bite you!

Question, When checkoff dollars are used, a project is done by the Federation division of NCBA which is the national branch of the state Beef Councils or under contract with the CBB. There are about 8 groups under contract. The Policy/Membership division of NCBA is involved in issues, not checkoff funded. The two divisions have clear financial separation, as required by law.

Sandhusker, NCBA doesn't waste checkoff dollars, since the Policy division which is the issues group, supports free and FAIR trade and works to gain better access and lower tarrifs on exported USA produced beef.

Kaiser, I can't imagine a rancher that doesn't want anything to do with the industry beyond his own ranch.........but I know there are way too many of them. Many R-CALF members say they raise cattle, not beef! I like NCBA because we are willing to work with other segments in the beef business from a position of strength and a common desire to make our product, beef, the best in the world. We don't fear them. We don't love them. They are what they are. If we know nothing about their business and goals, it is our loss. Working together on COMMON GOALS makes good sense. I simply don't understand how you can know, as you claim to, what is in the minds of packers when you say they care for nothing but financial rewards. My crystal ball just doesn't work that well.

So far as your paying your own expenses, while ABP/CCA "sent a delegation paid for with checkoff $$$)......in the USA, when people are serving on the board of the checkoff, they do receive SOME travel expenses. That prevent those boards from being a "rich mans club". Those who serve on NCBA, or the state organizations do not, as a rule. Certainly, those of us who attend for our own interest pay our own way.

Re. CLA research, I've barely scratched the surface of the information available and don't yet know enough about it. However, any educational forum, research or informational meeting has presented pro's and cons of feeds, antibiotics, growth promotants, etc.

I absolutely disagree with your insistence that feeders and packers have no ethics, therefore will not allow changes in our industry. I don't believe it's ethical to make such charges when you cannot possibly know the minds of ALL people in those industries.

Ben, I am sorry you have such narrow minded neighbors! It is just difficult to imagine people in agriculture in this day and age who are so narrowly focused on the past, old methods, and such, as well as trying to control your methods!

It does seem that with tests able to detect parts per billion of substances, it would be wiser to test products rather than to trust the 'rules'. It seems more honest to me for those challenging the safety of conventionally produced ag products to be required to test both to justify their claims.

Organic buffs should go ahead and market organic on the 'touchy-feely' aspects of knowing and trusting 'your' grower (justified or not, that's a chance some are willing to take), perceived better flavor, etc. but VERIFY & JUSTIFY the health and safety claims by an independent lab test. If all the claims of efficiency and better product hold up, eventually everyone will be producing what the consumer wants.......but let's let it be based on FACT, not PROPAGANDA and FEAR.

mrj

 

[Soapweed]

I like your sane viewpoints, MRJ. Once again, moderation in all things. There is probably plenty of "propaganda" on both sides, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

One thing that impresses me about the positive approach of the NCBA, is all the work and studies done to recommend giving vaccinations in the necks of cattle, so that less meat will be wasted. This is something that cattle people everywhere should try their level best to accomplish. This greatly lessons the chances of a bad eating experience which could happen if good meat has a vaccination blemish. These beef quality assurances will benefit both "regular" and organic beef.

 

[Sandhusker]

MRJ, "Sandhusker, NCBA doesn't waste checkoff dollars, since the Policy division which is the issues group, supports free and FAIR trade and works to gain better access and lower tarrifs on exported USA produced beef."

Let me try to explain it to you this way, MRJ; Say your church is having a bake sale. You're determined to bring the very best pies to town so you buy only the finest apples, go to the effort of making your own pie crusts using only top quality ingredients, and provide top quality ceramic pie pans. You take your pies to the sale and everybody else just threw some canned apples in a wal-mart shell in a chinsy foil pan and called it a pie. Your pies are put with theirs and all priced the same. Now, are you going to tell me that you didn't waste a bunch of money and time?

This is how it is after we spend time and money on our food programs and then we just open our doors to anything anybody can put on our shores.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) You seem to have a bur about her comment re. animals not treated with antibiotics when needed. Are you telling us that there are NO organic producers who will simply let an animal suffer till it recovers on it's own rather than putting dollars worth of money into an animal that he knows he will get far less money for when he must sell it as conventionally raised? I'm not saying that is the usual thing, but you are implying it doesn't happen, which I can't believe.

2) Your comments on yields of organic vs conventional farming omits comparisons of soils, precip., differing weather conditions from one year to another, ditto insect or other problems. You also seem to imply that ALL organic producers and supporters are honest and accurate and that their/your opinions should be taken as gospel, while conventional farmers and promoters are dishonest, or at best, mis-informed. Why do you do that?

3) I have NO PROBLEM with anyone wanting to use organic or natural practices, only with those who are using the fear factor to sell their products and to convince the consumers that the extra prices are necessary and justified for the health and well being of families and the earth.

1) MRJ, I think you'd best look back on my comments. At no time did I say that an organic guy wouldn't do what you described. Indeed I said the exact opposite. I did say that there are conventional guys who leave their animals untreated because the treatment would cost more than the profit on the animal. I also said that there is not one single organic PLAN that would ever recommend leaving an animal untreated.

2) My god MRJ, I posted links to case studies that had that EXACT information in them. And at no time did I ever imply that conventional farmers are dishonest. I didn't even remotely imply it. Hell I haven't even criticized conventional farmers. My own father is one, and I still conventionally farm some hay and grass up here. I think you've been shown that the author was full of crap and now you're trying to deflect away from it with some of this other garbage.

3) I call BS. You were applauding the idiotic writer of the article, making her appear to be some shining light of reason and when shown she was full of crap, you back pedalled and deflected. I firmly believe that you're threatened by organic producers and will happily latch onto any garbage you see posted without a moments thought for the truth.

Rod