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Perspective, reasons you should buy regular goods

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MRJ said:
Ben, I am sorry you have such narrow minded neighbors! It is just difficult to imagine people in agriculture in this day and age who are so narrowly focused on the past, old methods, and such, as well as trying to control your methods!

MRJ, did you think about everything you are writing here before you wrote this...look in a mirror! :lol2: :lol2:

MRJ said:
Re. CLA research, I've barely scratched the surface of the information available and don't yet know enough about it.

:agree:

The NCBA's position on Omega-3 (a similar component of the fatty acid complex) is to EAT FISH!!!!!!! :mad: Why should I expect any different view on CLA from NCBA?

As for testing, if you don't use a substance, you don't have to test to know it's not there!!!! Testing was to stop those that want to make a quick buck by not following the principles and philosophy of "true organic"...like the industrialized organic dairy folks the article is directed toward.

Let me ask you a question...if an animal has to be fed sub-therapeutical antibiotics and antacids to keep it alive long enough to be slaughtered, is that going to result in a healthy product?
 
RobertMac, do you give any "preventative" vaccinations? If so, do you give them in the neck? If you do, perhaps you have learned something.

Like I say, there is middle ground in all things. The "organic" folks don't have the world on a downhill slide, and neither do the "regular" folks. As individual cattle producers, we need to sort through the jibberish and do what is best for our own situations.
 
Doing and talking are two different things MRJ. Do you actually do anything with your livestock besides raise some of the best and healthiest calves for your local auction barn?

I appreciate the fact that you want to try to protect that way of life, but following a bunch of cut throat packers because of a fear of disrupting your personal farm gate prices does not count as DOING something.

Every person involved with Cargill or Tyson may not be unethical and I believe you are not. However the premise behind these multinational corporations does not allow these people (including yourself) to exercise their moral values and I honestly feel sorry for you for that.

I am sorry that "years of studying CLA" has come up with nothing at the NCBA MRJ. Kinda tells you that the money is being wasted or the ethical value of such a thing is being disregarded by those who you follow.

I will agree that I may take an extreme side from time to time, and am willing to move if I am proven wrong.
 
Soapweed said:
RobertMac, do you give any "preventative" vaccinations? If so, do you give them in the neck? If you do, perhaps you have learned something.

Like I say, there is middle ground in all things. The "organic" folks don't have the world on a downhill slide, and neither do the "regular" folks. As individual cattle producers, we need to sort through the jibberish and do what is best for our own situations.

I haven't given preventative vaccinations since the spring of 2003 and my vet cost the last three years has been $0.00...except for a semen test for a bull I sold that tested essentially 100%...the vet only found one broken tail that he said was probably from the collection process. I've had a closed herd since 2002. When I have given shots, it's been in the neck...at least since the BQA recommended it.

What is your answer to my question?

Let me ask you a question...if an animal has to be fed sub-therapeutical antibiotics and antacids to keep it alive long enough to be slaughtered, is that going to result in a healthy product?

I think that's were the middle ground lies.
 
Thanks, Soapweed. That is a good program, and does so much more than just the vaccination improvement. We, as an industry, still have work to do to stop the drain from various defects and problems that such money out of our pockets all the way from our ranches al to the consumer.

Sandhusker, my church doesn't have bake sales. We learned that auctions are more fair. People will pay more for better quality, or for something they really want, friendly competitions excepted. We like those, too because they raise quite a bit more money for improvements to our little rural town church, along with being fun.

The USA does NOT "just open our doors to anything anybody can put on our shores". There are protections, inspections, rules, and regulations that must be followed. That there have been some failures does not mean there is NO protection for US production from foreign imports, though some people with their own agendas apparently want to make consumers think that is true.

Diamond S..., 1. the fact is that all methods of production have people who will try to cheat, will abuse animals, and won't follow the PLAN book. Fortunately, they are few.

2. Fine, you posted links. Your comments are what most people have read. Yes, I did read some of the links and bookmarked others to persue as time allows. However people who don't check the links might well misunderstand.

3. I was applauding the fact that the writer, whom you have definitely not proven to be "idiotic", actually got into print! It is pretty rare to read criticism of organic CLAIMS, costs, and denigration of conventional practices. Possibly you don't do that. THere are plenty of people who do.

RM, you misunderstand my point in what I said to Ben. First, I have NO PROBLEM with people who want to farm organically, naturally, or however they choose, so long as they do not create problems for neighbors who were doing their own thing first.

I don't criticize people for farming organically and marketing their produce as such, so long as they don't claim other production methods make unsafe food. Market on taste, for goodness sake! That is subjective and more or less 'in the eye of the beholder'. Or "feel good about knowing the farmer" aspects.

Re. your claims of NCBAs "position" on Omega 3. There is no such thing!
NCBA works with the scientific and medical communities, and recommends a moderate diet of a broad range of foods. When the research is verifiable, peer reviewed, and accepted, the horn blowing for CLA and benefits of fatty acids in beef will begin! If there is any stated policy, it is to follow laws and be VERY sure before making claims about the superiority of beef. We can KNOW in our hearts and minds that we have a superior product, but will not make claims we can't verify.

Kaiser, yes, we "do something" with our livestock. We have only sold calve, unweaned at that, one time in our 50+ years in business! That was last year and solely due to the extreme drought. Normally we pasture wean with very little stress or problems. They remain on pasture for a few weeks, then go into our backgrounding lot on a growing ration of dry hay, minerals, and some dried distillers grain carefully formulated to give the growth rate we want, with hieffers we plan to keep, and calves of different weights getting different rations appropriate for their weight and projected growth. We have very little sickness, mostly due to dusty pastures and pens. Some of the faster growing calves may be sold directly to feeders late in Jan. to early March. The rest will go onto grass early in May, being sold to feeders in Aug. to Oct. time period. We may use auctions, or internet, or private contacts to sell them. We actively market our calves. Drought has been our limiting factor for the past several years.

Our so called "way of life" comes, not from designing our ranch operation to accomodate it, but vice versa!. There would be far easier lifestyles, believe me! We work way too many hours, required because it is difficult to impossible to hire good help. We have spent many years building ranch infrastructure which will make things run more efficiently in the future. We hope as we get to our mid-70's in a couple of years, we can slow down a little. The men on the ranch easily average 60 to 90 yours work per week year round. No slack time in winter for us, except for switching to more bookwork during Jan. and Feb. till after taxes are done. If weather is wicked, it is more hours outdoors, though. We could not do this unless we truly loved it.

We do not "follow a bunch of cut throat packers because of fear" of anything! We recognize that packers' wishes are NOT the only factor in prices we receive for our calves or yearlings.

I would fearlessly match, and maybe even surpass, the moral values of people, both members and staff, I have come to know over 50 years involvement with Beef Checkoff, NCBA and predecessor organizations on the state and national level, including ranchers, cattle feeders, and the very few packers who attend, with yours any day! Do you really believe that all those stockholders in corporate businesses are evil, too??? Or is it just the top brass? Or top to bottom of those in authority over those under them? Good grief!!!!

Where you see wrongdoing and evil intent in corporate structure, I see attempts to be financially efficient and operate complex businesses to process and distribute beef around the world in a timely way. Some are promoting an "eat locally" food system. I see that as taking away from the variety of foods available to MOST people in the world, if not outright limiting what many people can have, seasonally, and due to break up of food packaging, transportation and distribution systems. There would have to be many more food inspection facilities and personnel to maintain any semblance of safety inspection of all the "locally produced" foods, too.

You are incorrect in stating that research NCBA, CBB, and others involved with them has studied "has come up with nothing". It takes time for the detailed and exacting verification of apparent miracle food status to make it a viable thing to advertise, if we are truly responsible and accountable for possible mistakes, which I believe the Beef Checkoff leadership to be.

Oh, BTW, I'm not "involved" with Cargill or Tyson, for your information!

RM, I know your question was for Soapweed, but am curious....do you believe that fed cattle HAVE to "be fed sub-therpeutical antibiotics and antacids to keep it[them] alive long enough to be slaughtered"????

mrj
 
MRJ, "Sandhusker, my church doesn't have bake sales. We learned that auctions are more fair. People will pay more for better quality, or for something they really want, friendly competitions excepted. We like those, too because they raise quite a bit more money for improvements to our little rural town church, along with being fun. "


:shock: I tried....
 
Sandhusker said:
MRJ, "Sandhusker, my church doesn't have bake sales. We learned that auctions are more fair. People will pay more for better quality, or for something they really want, friendly competitions excepted. We like those, too because they raise quite a bit more money for improvements to our little rural town church, along with being fun. "


:shock: I tried....

If only there was an emoticon for showing something flying right over ones' head?

I tell ya, it's GOT to be the gin! :lol:
 
Maxine
People will pay more for better quality, or for something they really want, friendly competitions excepted.

Yep-- like USA products or USA beef, which they not only believe is higher quality, but safer- if its identified and labeled so folks can make the choice.......
 
MRJ, "People will pay more for better quality, or for something they really want, friendly competitions excepted."

But our government, with NCBA's approval, has stated that consumers won't get the opportunity to buy that product that they really want unless the product is based on sound science.
 
Sandhusker, whatever do you mean by that 'gem', "our government, with NCBA's approval, has stated that consumers won't get the opportunity to buy that product that they really want unless the product is based on sound science"???

I was posting about your mythical "church bake sale" versus my very real church bazaar..........not mentioning a"science based whatever" that you reply about.

mrj
 
mrj said:
Sandhusker, whatever do you mean by that 'gem', "our government, with NCBA's approval, has stated that consumers won't get the opportunity to buy that product that they really want unless the product is based on sound science"???

I was posting about your mythical "church bake sale" versus my very real church bazaar..........not mentioning a"science based whatever" that you reply about.

mrj

There are people in Asia who want BSE tested US beef. Can they buy it?

You completely missed my point on the bake sale. I presented it as simply as I could, and you still didn't get it.
 
mrj said:
Re. your claims of NCBAs "position" on Omega 3. There is no such thing!

Here is the quote and the link to the thread that has the article. The fact is that the Omega-3 issue and the CLA issue are proving to be very real health issues by research that has been going on since at least the mid-1980s (and I doubt any of those researchers are worried about NCBA's stamp of approval). The reason NCBA will never promote these issues is that they are in direct conflict with conventional beef production methods.(And, Soapweed, this is why I'm not worried about losing my niche market.)

Your apology for accusing me of lying is accepted in advance. :wink: :wink: mrj, you really need to learn about these issues.




A dietitian for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association conceded the Union of Concerned Scientists' basic claims. Grass-fed beef is leaner and packs a sturdier dose of heart-healthy omega-3 fatty acids. But, said Mary Young, the cattlemen group's nutrition chief, it might not matter a great deal.



The government classifies 29 cuts of beef as lean, and she said 15 of the 20 most popular cuts fall into that category. What's more, she said, the level of healthy fatty acids in any beef is too low to complete a healthy diet.



"Bottom line, beef is not a source of omega-3 fatty acid," Young said. "To get that, eat fish."
http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8611&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight


mrj said:
RM, I know your question was for Soapweed, but am curious....do you believe that fed cattle HAVE to "be fed sub-therpeutical antibiotics and antacids to keep it[them] alive long enough to be slaughtered"????

Actually, if you look back in the thread, you will see that the question was originally directed to you. To answer your question...no. Now answer mine...


If an animal has to be fed sub-therapeutical antibiotics and antacids to keep it alive long enough to be slaughtered, is that going to result in a healthy product?
 
RobertMac said:
If an animal has to be fed sub-therapeutical antibiotics and antacids to keep it alive long enough to be slaughtered, is that going to result in a healthy product?

It is not recommended, but sometimes a livestock operator can have a whole herd break-out in sickness. What would you do, doctor them or let them die?
 
My vet made a comment this spring about organic producers.

She said she gave more shots at the 3 or 4 local organic places than anywhere else.

I know of at least 2 that are listed as organic and the operators are people I wouldn't do business with.

Does this mean I am anti organic? Considering I am using natural methods myself, I doubt it. It just gives rise to the question why would people with dubious reputations be involved with a move that is meant to better the system?

I will not register as fully organic because it ties your hands too much. I use protocol that seems to be the best for the whole picture. I treat sick calves if they need it, the bottom line is that you have to unless you can subsidize your herd.

The beef I sell has sometimes been from treated calves, but always they are 6 months post treatment at least, but so are the feeders I sell through traditional methods.

Organic guidelines say systemic treatments like Ivomec can be used, on the cows during gestation but not on the calves. The feed can be 25% or more non organic grown right to the time of slaughter. Makes you wonder about the difference really.
 
RM, that was a QUOTE in an article by what is obviously a reporter who is not real friendly to Ms. Young, the Beef Checkoff, or the beef industry, IMO. She could have chosen better words, if, in fact, that WAS what she said. How do you know she was quoted accurately or completely?

My original point is that Beef Checkoff must be very careful in making health claims for beef. If there are foods naturally having superior amounts of a nutrient, beef promotion may still state the amounts, but may not claim superiory until that is proven factual.

Additionally, someone on staff saying something like that in an interview, if in fact she did so, DOES NOT MAKE IT NCBA
POSITION OR POLICY!!!! Positions and policy are set by membership at meetings, not be staff being quoted or misquoted, whichever the case may be.

The tone of the article makes it obvious he is a shill for the Union of Concerned Scientists and the Grass Fed beef people, some of whom seem to feel they have to make less than honest health claims about conventional beef in order to sell their leaner, tougher beef.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against grass fed beef. It is what we eat, and what we could probably sell at profitable prices if we chose to go into yet another business. I don't like you making untrue claims about what NCBA "positions" are, especially when you base it on a quote that may or may not be accurate.

Nor is NCBA giving any "stamp of approval" in any case.........it is CBB and the Beef Checkoff Federation division who must gain the "stamp of approval" of credible, peer reviewed, accepted research before they can promote beef as having superior nutriiton to other foods!!!! How much more clear can it be stated? If you choose not to believe that it does not make it any less true.

Haven't you stated previously that we should be telling people to eat all the beef they want, and that beef fat is good for them? That doesn't make sense unless and untill it is verified factual for ALL PEOPLE by credible, peer reviewed and accepted research. Untill that happens , I stand by the stand of the Beef Checkoff which calls for promoting beef as a valuable, nutrient rich part of a healthy balance diet, with no foods claimed to be either 'bad' of 'good'. Apparently you are going to tell your customers what you believe will make you the most money.......regardless.

Further, you are off target in proclaiming that NCBA "will never promote these issues, being in direct conflict with conventional beef production methods". FACT: NCBA has been a leader in assisting individuals and groups of ranchers develop their own branded beef products, presenting speakers who promote various non-conventional production methods, and more. There are many members who are involved in such businesses.

Do you really believe you need to attack or tear down others to build up your own enterprise?

mrj
 
Soapweed said:
RobertMac said:
If an animal has to be fed sub-therapeutical antibiotics and antacids to keep it alive long enough to be slaughtered, is that going to result in a healthy product?

It is not recommended, but sometimes a livestock operator can have a whole herd break-out in sickness. What would you do, doctor them or let them die?

Soap, I believe what RM is referring to is the tendency of large feedlots to use medicated feeds on an ongoing basis, to prevent illness versus treat it. Since most doctors feel that excessive use of antibiotics in human beings has led to resistant strains, why is it that the industry feels that its ok to do this in livestock production? I think we often forget that human beings are just plain old animals. Would you take antibiotics on an ongoing basis, just in case you might get sick? Ditto for growth hormones. Would you feed your growing child growth hormones because you want them to grow faster?

Rod
 
Jason said:
1) It just gives rise to the question why would people with dubious reputations be involved with a move that is meant to better the system?

2) Organic guidelines say systemic treatments like Ivomec can be used, on the cows during gestation but not on the calves. The feed can be 25% or more non organic grown right to the time of slaughter. Makes you wonder about the difference really.

1) I would think the answer to this obvious. They've seen the extra money in organic production and wish to cheat the system. Or are you trying to say that organic producers are less honest? If you are, I call bullshit. There are honest and dishonest producers in conventional ranching as well. Or if you're trying to say that the likelihood of organic producers cheating is greater, I also call bullshit. I've watched conventional guys give antibiotic shots to stock that was bound for the slaughter plant.

2) You're talking about the watered down organic guidelines that the CFIA/USDA has set forth. These guidlelines are largely criticized by true organic producers. Get ahold of some of the requirements for reputable organic programs. Then you'll see what genuine organic production is about.

Rod
 
MRJ, "Additionally, someone on staff saying something like that in an interview, if in fact she did so, DOES NOT MAKE IT NCBA
POSITION OR POLICY!!!! Positions and policy are set by membership at meetings, not be staff being quoted or misquoted, whichever the case may be. "

I'd appreciate it if you applied this same standard to R-CALF from now on...
 
You can sell drug free cattle and the cattle can have their calf hood shots. They just can't have ruminicien, bovatech, implants, and any antibodies....
If you are vigil with care of your calves,(meaning giving shots accordingly) you can basically go drug free...
Anything with an ear down or that gets sick you can doctor, mark and sell accordingly.... No big deal.......
 

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