pretty discouraging

[Roundup]

It is the master plan that scares me the most. That being making the CMR and surrounding lands a National park. That has been coming for years and is what the WWF wants.

It amazes me how many elk hunters fail to realize what is going on with the CMR. On hunting message boards, many are all for Bison introduction and of course they hate private landownership which was behind the I-161 proposal. I- 161 essentially reduced ranchers income within the CMR and surrounding areas. What is happening here is the ranchers are becoming squeezed by competition for rangeland for cattle, and a reduction in hunting income, which will eventually lead to a sell out of private ranches. Add the Bison along with wolves to control them, reduce the ranchers holdings by reducing available grazing for cattle and you have a long term plan for the CMR to become another Yellowstone National park.

The Greenies are sly, they do everything very slowly so as not to upset things too much, this is the master plan. They buy up the land, which is their right, initially allow hunting and grazing and the noose tightens over a 20 year period. I cannot believe that hunting groups cannot see the larger picture. Add Bison, grizzlies, wolves ( already there), reduce ranching and private land ownership and the final transition to a National Park becomes facilitated. Glad I live south of highway 200, maybe that will be the dividing line and I can be spared......

 

[Zilly]

Never mind, answered my own question with a quick google search. I agree with what Denny said, but I have to question the reason why these groups want to spend the money on these properties. I doubt the gov't is going to sell it, and as it is now, the public can use the BLM land if they choose and all of this land is pretty much in it's natural state. So what are they gaining besides control? Maybe it's the cynic in me, but something tells me it's more than just creating a "national park".

 

[Roundup]

Yes BLM lands are for recreation.

By the Grasslanders leasing the BLM and buying private pastures they will eventually become unavailable for cattle grazing. Many " Breaks ranches " cannot survive without leasing grazing lands from the BLM. In a sense, the Grasslanders are outcompeting the ranchers for available grazing lands and turning it over to bison and wolves.

 

[Zilly]

Sorry Roundup, I edited my post at the same time you replied.

My original question was if the public could still use leased property.

 

[Faster horses]

Sorry Roundup, I edited my post at the same time you replied.

My original question was if the public could still use leased property.

They can still use property leased from the federal government or
the state, if there is access to it. Not all of it has public access, being
landlocked by private property. Then you must get permission to cross
private land from the landowner.

 

[I Luv Herfrds]

FH it was also called The Big Open where they planned to put peaop;e in corridors and allow animals to have full rein over the land.

Roundup don't be too surprised if they start coming your way shortly.

Zilly take a very close look at the area they want. Spelling it out for you simple.
Oil and gas.
When slick willy made that monument it enclosed several gas lease sites so this is not just about property it is also about stopping oil and gas production. Also if they get the mineral rights and allow drilling think of the money they would make off of it all.

 

[Anonymous]

who might a guy talk to (about this particular land-owner/employer) to find out if they are hiring for fall-gather/pre-conditioning/weaning/shipping/preg-testing and (eventually) winter feeding/calving help ? ? ?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

who might a guy talk to (about this particular land-owner/employer) to find out if they are hiring for fall-gather/pre-conditioning/weaning/shipping/preg-testing and (eventually) winter feeding/calving help ? ? ?

Google "Page Whitham land and cattle" and about five sites will give you the phone number and fax number.

 

[jigs]

I'm wondering b/c there's a big operation out in extreme W KS that a Whitham family owns, and the patriarch of that outfit was killed in the early 90s I believe when his private plane (jet is what the story I was told said) went down on his way to his ranch up north. That's just the story I was told, and was wondering if it's the same family.

we moved about 13 thousand tons of alfalfa in to Leoti last year....big grinder outfit that was supposedly tied into the same family....

 

[mrj]

burnt, I apologize if my words offended you.

I wasn't reading your mind, but was reading implications in your questions, especially: "were they all happy to sell out? or were they--like Page--pushed by the original owners....into a corner...." and "if so, what comes 'round, goes 'round" doesn't exactly appear that you feel sorry for that landowner, does it?

While that family ranch may do fine for a while, they obviously see the 'handwriting on the wall' as to what many outside ranching want for that land. And appear to be doing what they can to put off an eventual Federal land grab for as long as possible, imo.

You didn't exactly sound benign toward the 'big' rancher involved!

However, I also did admit to being somewhat sensitive to bashing of businesses or ranchers or farmers for being 'too big' and/or ruthlessly pushing smaller ones aside for their own greedy gain.

I am very concerned about anything which seems planned to eventually place more land ownership with the Federal Government. I believe they need to SELL off that land to those who have used and practiced good stewardship as MANY, possibly most, ranchers do today.

The use of such land conservation agreements and/or sales as that family used is also bashed. There are times and places where that appears to be the ONLY way a family can protect their land from development or take-over for purposes which will eliminate the rancher from too much of our land. Some call it 'wasteland' since it won't support farming very well without irrigation. It may well be some of the best 'cattle country' for raising cattle, imo.

Isn't there a substantial difference betwee land that is high quality soil types, with great rain and temperatures for growing things, cattle included, and land in "the Great American Desert" of which states from SD west are considered?

When number of acres necessary per cow per year are considered, land in that 'Desert' may be higher priced than in MN and states to the east and southeast, imo.

mrj

 

[redrobin]

I'm wondering b/c there's a big operation out in extreme W KS that a Whitham family owns, and the patriarch of that outfit was killed in the early 90s I believe when his private plane (jet is what the story I was told said) went down on his way to his ranch up north. That's just the story I was told, and was wondering if it's the same family.

we moved about 13 thousand tons of alfalfa in to Leoti last year....big grinder outfit that was supposedly tied into the same family....

Jan and Frank Whitham if I remember correctly at Leoti. Frank was killed in the plane crash. Well respected folks from what I know (which is little).

 

[nmhighdesert]

Frank Whitham was a first class man. I worked for him 30 years ago.

 

[eatbeef]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

 

[jodywy]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

but then there is round up, moving cattle when some one leaves gates open or cuts fences, wolves, bears, lions, and varmits that use bows and rifles, maintaing water developments (welding bullet holes)flying in rough country to spot lost cattle affter round up , you will make up the extra in the rate really fast them maybe a little more

 

[gcreekrch]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

Until you count in cost of fence and trail construction and maintenance. Then add in losses to predators, time spent looking for cattle and having to deal with the odd practicality impaired beaurocrat.

It ain't as rosy as it may seem. :wink:

 

[jodywy]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

Until you count in cost of fence and trail construction and maintenance. Then add in losses to predators, time spent looking for cattle and having to deal with the odd practicality impaired beaurocrat.

It ain't as rosy as it may seem. :wink:

well said in less words :!:

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

but then there is round up, moving cattle when some one leaves gates open or cuts fences, wolves, bears, lions, and varmits that use bows and rifles, maintaing water developments (welding bullet holes)flying in rough country to spot lost cattle affter round up , you will make up the extra in the rate really fast them maybe a little more

Hey Jody maybe eatbeef wants to trade ranches with you.

 

[jodywy]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

but then there is round up, moving cattle when some one leaves gates open or cuts fences, wolves, bears, lions, and varmits that use bows and rifles, maintaing water developments (welding bullet holes)flying in rough country to spot lost cattle affter round up , you will make up the extra in the rate really fast them maybe a little more

Hey Jody maybe eatbeef wants to trade ranches with you.

I sold my permit over a year ago just wassn't fun any more, wasn't the stuff I posted that changed that it was one of the other permittees!

 

[leanin' H]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

Come on out and buy an "easy" BLM/Forest Service permit and show us how it's done! :roll: Every fall the brinks trucks will just roll in stuffed full of cash and dump it out on your front porch! :roll: WAYYYYYYY before some government agency was created to "manage public land" ranchers out here have worked thier asses off taking care of it! For what? A over-zealous college kid from some corn-belt university comes out and trys to show you with a text book why 150 years of running cattle doesn't work? Or a hunting organization decides Elk and Muledeer hunting is more important than feeding my family? Or a motorcycle club has an offroad race through your allotment and cuts 12 fences to build a trail, which you fix until the next bunch of guys try to follow the trail and cut the fence, so you install gates on your own dime for them to throw down? Or a Sage Grouse study group decides 4800 acres of your allotment is prime strutting grounds and simply subtracts it from your lease without any appeals process which gets your permit permanently cut? Or a small fire starts but isn't put out because the BLM gets paid to fight fire, not put em' out and turns into a hundred thousand acre monster and burns up feed for atleast two years and your cattle now go where? Or a bunch of other things i am too tired and pissed off to list. But you just come run cows on these wonderful government leases you think is such a pleasure cruise and see how far ya get. My money says you'll run back to where ya came from praise God on how good you have it! :roll: Next time, don't lip off on a subject you have no idea about please. :roll:

 

[Zilly]

I don't see the problem H. :twisted: