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Question for the "Straight Black Commercial Cow/Calf Ma

Faster horses said:
As for Herefords, I recall a buyer talking about not having a good market for Hereford calves, but Hereford Yearlings was another story. Seems the feedlots love Hereford yearlings. Correct me if I am wrong...as this was just something that popped up in my less-than-perfect memory.
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FH, I sold my Hereford steers on Aug 11. They weighed 1018 and brought $104.50 so they dollared out to 1063/hd. Just wish I had a couple potloads of them! :wink: :D :lol:

At this sale they were selling the red and black cattle together. I was at another sale barn last week where they cut the red and black steers apart. The black cattle brought $4/cwt more. :???:

Also saw a nice red Angus steer that just didn't fit in with his wf herdmates and was about 100 lbs heavier than them. He weighed 1020 and only brought $93 which was lots cheaper than my 14 head of same weight Herefords had done a couple weeks before.

BTW, I just bought a pallet of 3V2S. It cost about $3/bag more than the previous 3V4S. Comparing tags it looks to me like it should be a cheaper mineral, but I'm sure trucking and other costs have increased! :shock: :oops: :roll:
 
I'm so happy that your steers did so well, weight wise and dollar wise!!
How could it get any better?
WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

3V2S does cost a little more than 3V4S. It has a bit more phos. It is consumed more consistently and we consider it to be our best product.
I do sell a lot of
the 3V4S though. And in the spring we are having the guys on a year round program use the 3V5S. It is cheaper and has worked well. Again,
we only recommend that product if the producer is on a year-round program as it contains less phos. And we only recommend it while the
grass is green, or they will eat too much of it.

Oh, the price of ingredients has gone up along with the trucking. The guys
did a graph showing how much the mineral has gone up since 1997 and how much cattle prices have gone up since then. Luckily, cattle prices have risen lots more than the mineral has. Everyones mineral has goine up. I think Cargill owns most of the phos plants and they really raised the price of phos, so that costs everyone.

Remember, QUALITY PAYS in cattle and mineral. :shock: :lol:
 
Thanks for the explanation, FH! I based my conclusions because of the greater salt content on the tag. I'm guessing that the salt is the cheapest ingredient in mineral.

And I have a confession to make. :oops: I picked up a few of Cargill's Nutrebeef 12:12 mineral blocks to tide me over when I ran out of 3V4S. I'm just not impressed with the Nutrebeef blocks and they are so crumbly they need to be handled as if they were loose mineral! :wink:
 
BTW, I just bought a pallet of 3V2S. It cost about $3/bag more than the previous 3V4S. Comparing tags it looks to me like it should be a cheaper mineral, but I'm sure trucking and other costs have increased!
Click to expand...

I hope you have better luck with the 3V2S than I'm having...Cows won't eat it... :shock: They loved the old 32S stuff that they don't make anymore...I guess the old girls are finicky and like the old stuff better--and I have to admit it smelled better than this does...

Almost everything I put out this spring is still there- which is cheap on the pocket book- they look great, and no problems, but got me worrying if they are getting enough mineral...Maybe the grass was so good this year- and they've never saw that before that they weren't going to mess with any mineral... :roll:
Next couple months will tell as they usually really hit it when the grass gets all dry.....
 
WE use 3V5 pretty much all summer until we start feeding in the winter or late fall and than we switch over to the 3V0.. Consumption on the the old 3S2 or whatever it was called was inconsistant so the dealer stopped carying it in favor of the lower phos one.. Our soil is pretty high in Phosph from all the byproducts we feed, maybe that means the grass is too? Going to run some tissue tests this next year off some fields to see what it says.
 
OT, I'm not trying to brag but the grass is green here right now after almost 3" of rain in the last couple weeks! :D :D :D

My cows had been hitting the 3V4S really hard before it rained because it was really dry and there wasn't a hint of green in the grass. I switched mineral about the time it rained. My cows aren't eating much 3V2S either but I attribute that to the green grass.

The cows have a couple of the Nurtrebeef blocks I got available and aren't working on them much either. I have one Nutrebeef block left and will give it to the yearling heifers. Been carrying it around in the pickup cab waiting for a chance to put it out! :roll: :D :lol:
 
Cattle will not over consume Phosphorus. Also the NRC is recommending LESS phos...something Vigortone has advocated for years. In our area,
the phos does go out of the grass when it dries up so we need to feed a
higher phos mineal at that time. And we do.

All the corn by-products do contain more phos so you can get by with less in your mineral.

Also, OT, call Roger and tell him what is going on with you. You aren't in this alone, you know. That is one thing about Vigortone, they will help you.
 
Yep, the thing is all that phos that was ingested is being sent out the other end when it comes to the byproducts in the winter.. Fields that we feed distillers on, you take soil samples and the Phos is high.. Definate no need to fertilize with it, put it that way... Not so high to be a problem but something that I am a bit concerned on to the point that we are cutting our byproduct use in half this winter assuming we can get the stalks put up in time..
 
Some feedlots have eliminated Phos all together and are getting along fine.

Not that I'm saying cattle used for breeding can get along with zero phos...I don't mean that at all.

John, Cargill? Shame on you!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And 12:12? That formula should be in the trash can...no research shows
you should feed a 1 to 1 cal to phos ratio.

Sure glad I can enlighten you guys. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :gag: :P
 
Faster horses said:
Some feedlots have eliminated Phos all together and are getting along fine.

Not that I'm saying cattle used for breeding can get along with zero phos...I don't mean that at all.

John, Cargill? Shame on you!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And 12:12? That formula should be in the trash can...no research shows
you should feed a 1 to 1 cal to phos ratio.

Sure glad I can enlighten you guys. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :gag: :P
Click to expand...

So what is my punishment, FH? :oops: Getting whacked over the head with said mineral blocks? :shock: That shouldn't hurt too bad, I'm sure my head is harder than those blocks are! :P

ILR brought up a good point about byproducts and phos. It looks like if anyone feeds distillers that is and important consideration that should be factored in to the mineral program.

My mind is fuzzy at the moment but is there some relationship between excess phos and "water belly" in steer calves?
 
I feed 3v2 AX due to the high selenium content in our area. I have fed calves a nearly all calcium mineral when I have fed distillers.

As far as water belly that is one trouble I have never had.
 
John, I have been taught that water belly is the result of an calcium/phos imbalance. I have a paper on it that I will share here. And I don't mind telling you that some of it is over my head: :shock:

Calculi causes waterbelly. A good mineral program can prevent
waterbelly. In W. Montana a big Hereford ranch (sorry!) there had alot
of waterbelly. They never fed any mineral. Too bad, because it could
have helped them a bunch. But you know, this mineral deal wasn't
talked about 15-20 years ago like it is now. We didn't know what
a difference a good mineral can make. It's all about immune system.

Here is the article and I retyped it here...WHEW!! That was a job!

Urinary Calculi can be a prominent and important cause of death in cattle and sheep; more specifically in the male due to theri smaller and more restrictive urinary systems. Furthermore, male castrates tend to have a higher incidence of urinary calculi than do intact males, and this is attributed to their less developed urinary tract.

Calculi can be defined as an abnormal concretion in the body usually formed of mineral salts and located somewhere in the urinary system.
As these calculi move into a smaller and more restrictive space in the urinary, they form blockages. As urinary pressure builds up, it eventually reptures the urinary bladder or urethra and spills urine into the body cavity and nearby tissues resulting in a condition called "water belly."

This problem is most commonly seen in feedlot and range steers. Feedlot cattle usually encounter on of two types of urinary calculi--that being a phosphatic type calculi--while range cattle experience the other kind of calculi referred to as a siliceious calculi.

Phosphatic Urinary Calculi
Causes:
High urinary phosphorus levels: Usually feedlot cattle are fed grains or oil meals which generally provide more phosphorus than what may be required for ration specs. In addition, these types of feedstuffs increase the amount of mucoproteins in urine which combine with the phosphatic products in the already alkaline urine to form calculi. Conversely, by replacing high calcium leguminous type forages with teh concentrates, we tend to reduce the Ca (Calcuim):P ratio which allows urinary levels to climb.

Urine Alkalinity:When overformulated amounts of alkali-forming elements are fed (sodium, potassium and magnesium) the result in increased urine alkalinity and increased incidence of calculi. This can be compared to feeding acid-forming elements (sulpher, phosphorus and chlorine.)

Low Urine Output:
There is an inverse relationship between urine volume and concentrations of minerals in the urine. Simply put, the more water that is consumed, the more dilute the urine will be of minerals and other excretory products. This is one reason we see increased frequency of this condition in the winter feeding months as water consumption tends to drop. It is prudent to mention that water hardness has been shown to have no correlation to the occurance of urinary calculi and, in fact, calcium and magnesium, which contribute to water hardness, actually act to prevent urinary calculi.

Prevention
Blockage from urinary calculi can occur at any time throughout the feeding period, however, the largest percentage occurs after the first 21 days. A program for preventing or decreasing the occurance of phosphatic urinary calculi needs to have one of the following parts satisfied in order to be effective: 1)lower the urinary phosphorus levels; 2)acidification of the urine 3)increased urine volume.

1. We can lower the urinary phosphorus levels by monitoring and managing phosphorus levels in the ration; and just as importantly, mangaging the Ca:P ratio a 1.2-2.1

(There is more, but I want to move on to water belly in grazing animals)--
Siliceous Urinary Calculi
Grazing ruminents are more frequently affected by urinary calculi having silica (SiO2) as the primary element; hence the name siliceous urinary calculi.

CAUSES:
The source of SiO2, seems to be present in range grasses and forages put up for preservation and winter/off season type feeding. Range plants tend to increase in silica content with maturity and leaching soluble components. Research conducted in SD over a 2-year period revealed that native grasses increased in SiO2 content from about 5% on a DM basis in June to 8% in Nov. It is possible to surmise that the increased incidence of SUC in the winter months could come from feeding forages high in silica and the natural decrease in water intake.

PREVENTION:
The most practical means of prevention seem to be those in which we can reduce the slica content of the forages consumed. This would include moving away from oat hay and straw and sticking with alfalfa or other legumes or low fiber grains such as corn and sorghum, as well as using the salt trick to increase water consumption resulting in increased urinary flow. This can be done in range cattle by using a high salt, free choice mineral, such as Vigortone range minerals, placed close to an accessible water source to allow for and encourage increased water consumption. A daily intake of salt comparable to one gram of salt/kg of body weight has been shown to increase water consumption adequately to aid in reducing SUCU.

--Steve Stafford Vigortone Ruminent Specialist

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Doug, that hi calcium you have been feeding is just what you needed to do.
 
Faster horses said:
I'm so happy that your steers did so well, weight wise and dollar wise!!
How could it get any better?
WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

3V2S does cost a little more than 3V4S. It has a bit more phos. It is consumed more consistently and we consider it to be our best product.
I do sell a lot of
the 3V4S though. And in the spring we are having the guys on a year round program use the 3V5S. It is cheaper and has worked well. Again,
we only recommend that product if the producer is on a year-round program as it contains less phos. And we only recommend it while the
grass is green, or they will eat too much of it.

Oh, the price of ingredients has gone up along with the trucking. The guys
did a graph showing how much the mineral has gone up since 1997 and how much cattle prices have gone up since then. Luckily, cattle prices have risen lots more than the mineral has. Everyones mineral has goine up. I think Cargill owns most of the phos plants and they really raised the price of phos, so that costs everyone.

Remember, QUALITY PAYS in cattle and mineral. :shock: :lol:
Click to expand...

You sure like to bash Cargill.......phos is up because demand is up.....more corn acres, among other things, not because suppliers "chose" to raise prices.
 
FH, thank you for going to all the work to re-type that article! :shock: :shock: :shock: There hasn't been a case of waterbelly here since I was a kid.

I also apologize for hijacking the original question of this thread! :oops: As a commercial Hereford raiser I would like to breed my cattle to Angus to get those baldies everyone likes. It's taking me a long time to build my herd back so for now I only use Angus on my heifers.

Can't keep all the calves over winter so I have been sorting by color and sending the straight blacks and baldy steers to the sale barn as calves. Been keeping all the baldy and Hereford heifers to breed and culling as necessary later.

Another place in addition to cattle and mineral where quality pays is stock water. The artesian water from my neighbors well is vastly superior than any dam or shallow well water on this place.
 
So Doug, that hi calcium you have been feeding is just what you needed to do.
Click to expand...

That was what my mineral expert told me also.
One note on mineral though. I haven't always fed mineral. Dad never belived in mineral but he fed some in the late 80's. When the market went down in the 90's the first thing he cut was the mineral. We were in partnership then and I went along with what he said. I started feeding mineral again in 2000. I have not noticed any difference in conception or health or really anything else except this, without a mineral program my cows were wore out at 7-8 years old and without warning. I had cows raise a 550# calf one year and a 400# calf the next when they should have still been in their late prime. Now with a good mineral program I can keep my cows as long as the neighbors do and have consistent results.
 
Doug, my dad was a firm believer in mineral. He always fed Watkins (same folks who sell the vanilla, cinnammon, pudding, etc) Always felt like it made the cows milk better and clean better. We also had milk cows when I was a kid.

And yes, less cancer eye and prolapses on Herefords. :roll: :wink: :lol:

I've fed other brands but seem to keep coming back to Vigortone which seems to have a consistently uniform and palatable product. And comparing apples to apples IMO the price is as competitive as any other mineral out there.
 
"They copied what was on the tag, they should have copied what was in the bag". That is our Vigortone motto when comparing other mineral.

Doug, I can give another example of what you found when not feeding mineral. We have a good friend that we converted to Vigortone. He had some old cows to get rid of, but the market wasn't good on those old bred cows, so he kept them. He put them on our mineral and soon those cows even looked younger. He got 4 more years out of them!!! This is a true story, I watched it happen. So Doug, you aren't imagining things and thanks for relating what you noticed. I am suprised that you didn't find heavier calves, better conception rates, etc. What about calving interval?
Did you notice more calves coming in the first heat cycle? The friend I am telling about here gets over 90% of his calves in the first heat cycle.
He runs Angus cattle with just a little Simmental in them.

JOHN SD-you're a good man, my friend. :wink:
 
We have used several types of mineral over the years. Even one that is quite often mentioned on the forum. This year we are feeding a mineral that was specially developed with the knowledge of the grasses and other components of the feed program we follow. We are fortunate to have a neighbor that is very proactive in research and trying to find the best mineral and feed programs for the cattle in this specific area. Of course I have to add they employ their own vet so that helps.

The problem with any feed, mineral, or even milk replacer program is making sure it truly benefits your cattle and their production and a person isn't just paying for the name on the bag. As we all know the only way to see the benefit or lack of is to try the product.
 
A word of caution here.

To really 'TRY' a mineral would take at least a year. You can't buy a
few bags and put it out and expect to see any difference.

The other way to know if you are buying the right mineral, is to
talk to other ranchers in your area, OR have a knowledgeable mineral
person that will help you and guide you to the right product.
 

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